Came across this site from Modes Machines where they wanna sell a SID synthesizer including MIDI (and maybe USB ?).
Seems there are still people who still like the SID sound and see some money in selling a complete box commercially. Should cost around €700.

Last edited by x303 on 12-Feb-2013 at 11:02 PM.

@x303

the sid chip was always well respected under synth enthusiasts...
years ago there was the sidstation already:
http://www.elektron.se/products/sidstation
(now sold out), and many d.i.y. sid mounting boards were seen on the net!

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@x303

Cool but I'm quite happy with my MSSIAH cart

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@klx300r

Quote:

Cool but I'm quite happy with my MSSIAH cart

I'm getting annoyed by its restrictions and trying to find a midi cartridge, to be able to write better software. I just wish 1541 Ultimate II had USB MIDI support...

Regarding Mode Machines offering, MidiBox SID looks way better... Of course not sold as "ready".

Of new synthesizers, there's also Elektron Monomachine SFX-60+ MKII which has SID support, although I think it's emulated...

@Jupp3

I was always wondering what is special about the SID chip.

Can anyone explain? AFAIK, it's only very simple waveform generation of primitives. So technically, any synth could do it.

EDIT: Here are the specs found on Wikipedia:
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology_SID )

Features

* three separately programmable independent audio oscillators (8 octave range, approximately 16 - 4000 Hz)
* four different waveforms per audio oscillator (sawtooth, triangle, pulse, noise)
* one multi mode filter featuring low-pass, high-pass and band-pass outputs with 6 dB/oct (bandpass) or 12 dB/octave (lowpass/highpass) rolloff. The different filter-modes are sometimes combined to produce additional timbres, for instance a notch-reject filter.
* three attack/decay/sustain/release (ADSR) volume controls, one for each audio oscillator.
* three ring modulators.
* oscillator sync for each audio oscillator.
* two 8-bit A/D converters (typically used for game control paddles, but later also used for a mouse)
* external audio input (for sound mixing with external signal sources)
random number/modulation generator

So, it's basically 3 Oscillators with primtive Waveforms that can be combined by ring modulators and a filter (probably without resonance). Plus "hard-sync".

Last edited by Wanderer on 13-Feb-2013 at 08:54 AM.
Last edited by Wanderer on 13-Feb-2013 at 08:52 AM.

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@Thread

There is quite a lot of hardware out there to use the SID chip including catweasel and HardSID, so with all these what happens when all the SID chips run out?

@Arnie

There's enough C64s out there to keep us going for a while yet, trust me!

@Wanderer

Well, it's more about the muzaks done by musicians like Hubbard, Galway, Maniac of Noise, the Follins brothers, and others that make the SID special, but I suppose that you've to have lived that back in the day to understand. I think SID lovers have their brains damaged and it's irreversible.
Emulation is not good enough that why I bought the first HardSid ISA that cost me more than a SB Live and now have also a Catweasel...
Kamelito

@kamelit0

I understand, that ancient or rare hardware comes with some myth, like records, analog synths and such.

But looking at it ignoring all the Voodoo, it's very basic synthesis that is almost every modern synth (soft&hardware) capable to do. Of course, there are non-linearities and other imperfections that change the sound to some degree, but is this really noticable to a random audience or only to you?

Is it not the way you are forced to use it because of its limitations, that create the chame and uniqueness that is clearly hearable to anybody?
Like the fast appregiator that create a chord by quickly jumping througg the notes and the fact that you use basic waveforms without a lot of cosmetic?

Last edited by Wanderer on 13-Feb-2013 at 12:48 PM.

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@Wanderer
Quote:

But looking at it ignoring all the Voodoo, it's very basic synthesis that is almost every modern synth (soft&hardware) capable to do. Of course, there are non-linearities and other imperfections that change the sound to some degree, but is this really noticable to a random audience or only to you?

I'd say this is pretty much it, it's the nuances that makes a huge difference at least for the musician. Kind of why for example guitarists prefer a certain brand and model of guitars and pick-ups. For the random listener the differences might not be that big, but for the people making the music they are.

I own one of these: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cUPtznMUik

although I haven't built it yet. There's just something unique about the sound - certainly has to do with nostalgia. And just for the fun of it too...

@Wanderer

Quote:

Can anyone explain? AFAIK, it's only very simple waveform generation of primitives. So technically, any synth could do it.

Sure, any artist can do their music (and live performances) with a single laptop. Some just prefer to use "real" hardware.
Quote:

So, it's basically 3 Oscillators with primtive Waveforms that can be combined by ring modulators and a filter (probably without resonance). Plus "hard-sync".

Each channel has choice of 4 waveforms (some of which can be combined together f.ex. sawtooth and pulse. 8580 allows more combinations than 6581). Each channel has its own ADSR envelope and pulse width (only affects pulse waveform, obviously).

There's only global volume setting (although you can affect per-channel volume with ADSR) and global filter with resonance and three modes: low pass, band pass and high pass. A bit like with waveforms, you can select any combination. Every channel has a bit, that controls whether or not it's filtered. Also sound coming from audio input can be filtered.

Then there's also ring modulation and sync, which can be applied between 2 channels.

Unlike some people will tell you, there is no "sample channel". The "traditional" method for sample playback was based on setting sample values to the volume register (there's a bug in chip design that makes an audible "pop" each time value is changed). And as often with bugs, this one was fixed in the next version, 8580. Of course there are ways to play samples on both versions, but there's absolutely no sample channel.

In my opinion, a lot of "SID love" is based on enormous amount of good music made on it. Often sounding WAY better than Amiga counterparts (thinking f.ex. Atomino, Wizball, Cybernoid, Eliminator, LED Storm...) - but then again, it often sounded like "Amiga musicians didn't even try". I'd pick "lively" synth sound over "single, bad, unaltered sample being used over and over again"

See f.ex. Atomino Amiga vs. C64 (subtune 4/5) - rather good example in my opinion, as both are trying to create the same tune.

There's probably something about "I'm using an instrument that was used to do my favourite song."

And nowadays there's also accessibility. If you are ok with bad controls, bad and inconsisent UI design and restrictions it brings (cannot use arpeggio in "monosynth mode", which is the most useful for live playback, only max. 16 step patterns etc.) there's Mssiah cartridge.

And yes, even with all the bad things, I'd still say it's worth it, if you need something like that. MIDI interfaces for C64 are rather rare, which somewhat rules out "writing better software".

@Jupp3

Thanks for the explanation. As I am currently writing my own software synth, I am curious in various concepts in order to get them implemented.
I was wondering about the SID chip since it is so famous.

But I can't see any unique features in the SID chip, everything is pretty standard (apart from the sample playback hack, but this is not what people associate with the typical "chip tune" sound).

I think the main characteristic comes from the fast appregiator effect, which is also offered by the MOD Format. This is not easy to mimic via MIDI, so it needs support from the synth itself. I did this in Sweeper, my first synth project (hear this: http://hd-rec.de/Archive/DemoSongs/Sarcophaser.mp3 ), however, since the appregiator requires to know the current Chord being played, it's not easy. Sweeper alters only the octave using a Square Wave-LFO.

You write the filter offers resonance, but I have never heared a SID tune that makes use of it, at least not obviously. The typical SID tune uses plain, unfiltered waveform primitives, often modulating the pulswith to create some "phaser" effect.

Last edited by Wanderer on 13-Feb-2013 at 07:58 PM.

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@Wanderer

Quote:

I was wondering about the SID chip since it is so famous.

Well, few reasons, as I see it.
1)It's included in every single unit of the "best selling home computer ever"
2)Unlike many competitors of its time (imho, it's WAY better than what MSX, Vic-20, Spectrum or even Atari ST offered) and it's clearly designed by someone with "synth design" in mind, rather than "Oh sound? Guess we need to do some chip that makes some sound..."

And the combination of the first 2 resulted in lots of talented musicians working on SID. And when something is incredibly popular in the past, it likely still is.

Quote:

But I can't see any unique features in the SID chip, everything is pretty standard (apart from the sample playback hack, but this is not what people associate with the typical "chip tune" sound).

Don't think of it as sound chip. Think of it as a computer sound chip. From the 80's. Back then it was way better than most others.

Quote:

I think the main characteristic comes from the fast appregiator effect, which is also offered by the MOD Format.

Arpeggio is in no way SID specific. It's hard to think of any sound chip from that era that couldn't do it

C64 music was popular (because C64 was). Lots of C64 tunes used arpeggio (as lots of tunes in general used arpeggio back then). That's it. No direct relation in my opinion

...Although of course arpeggio sounds much better, if you can make it more "lively" with ADSR & filters, that some other sound chips lacked. I think Stormlord intro tune had some rather nice arpeggios.

Also, in some cases (R-Type level 1, anyone else? ) C64 Arpeggio version sounds way better than the original multichannel chord.

And regarding the synth design in SID chip, the main designerlater co-founded Ensoniq

@Jupp3

here's an interesting paper about recreating chiptune like synthesizer in software (max msp in this case); unfortunately i didn't find the complete patch online. the max external is missing.
http://www.zenpho.co.uk/PhillPhelps-ChiptuneSynth.pdf

btw. about the filter: the sid had actually an analogue filter!
oscillator sync was also an important feature for the sid sound...

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@Wanderer

Quote:

I was always wondering what is special about the SID chip. Can anyone explain? AFAIK, it's only very simple waveform generation of primitives. So technically, any synth could do it.

In theory yes. In practice, no.
It's an analogue synth on a chip. It might have the standard waveforms but a lot of the classic analogue synths can't do these waves properly so this gives them a characteristic sound. SID is no different, it has its own sound and a lot of people happen to like it.

AFAIK the SID has numerous bugs and the filter isn't very good. All of these contribute to the sound in different ways.

I have several analogue synths, they also in theory produce the same sounds but none of them sound remotely like each other.

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@minator

it's not an analogue synth. it's a digital synth, but with the addition of an analogue filter!!

the paper i linked to contains a section with a short overview of the sid's specialities & oddities (page 130):

/////////////////////////////////////////////////

SID (various revisions including 6581R2, 6581R3, 6581R4AR, 6582A, 8580R5)
(Commodore64) Commodore

• 3 oscillators (range 0Hz-4kHz)
• Each oscillator waveform switchable between
Variable pulse, Sawtooth, Triangle, Noise (i.e. pseudorandom number generator)
• Programmable analogue filter (12dB/8ve, LP ,HP ,Notch variable between ~30Hz-12kHz, variable resonance)
• 3 (one per oscillator) exponential ADSR envelopes, with attack response from 2ms-8s, decay and release time from 6ms-24s.
• Programmable ring modulation (output of an oscillator can modulate the amplitude of the remaining two by 48dB)
• Oscillator synchronisation (output of an oscillator can reset the internal phase angle of another)
Figure A4.4 – 6581 block diagram (Commodore, 1982)

Unusual aspects
• High NMOS signal leakage in the 6581 chips meant that adjusting the envelope sustain level can produce “pops” as internal DC offsets are scaled to produce sudden jumps in output. This was sometimes used to produce percussion in some compositions. This is known as “Galway noise” (after Martin Galway discovered it)
• One highly unusual technique is to play back short 4-bit PCM waveforms with the aid of the CPU and interrupts causing “pops” to occur at audio frequencies.
• Abuse of “timing problems” that cause phase shifts in the Triangle and Sawtooth waveforms, combined with AND gates to mix the waves together can produce new wave shapes.
• The shift register feedback arrangement, used to produce the random numbers, takes one of its inputs from the register used to set the tone oscillator frequency. As a result, the noise output has a different pattern for each result, the noise output has a different pattern for each frequency setting. This results in a very unique sounding noise channel.
• Amplitude modulators between oscillators are rarely found in other sound chips of this era
• Voltage controlled resonant lowpass/highpass/notch filters are also a rare feature of the SID

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@Wanderer

Quote:

You write the filter offers resonance, but I have never heared a SID tune that makes use of it, at least not obviously. The typical SID tune uses plain, unfiltered waveform primitives, often modulating the pulswith to create some "phaser" effect.

Yes, filter was pretty much avoided, especially in the old times. Of course first tunes didn't really "do anything special" (and no-one really focused on them), but even when music gained more interest, filters were mostly avoided. Why?

The answer is simple: 6581 SID filters varied greatly between chips. Filters sounded completely different on different chips (this is one of the issues that 8580 also fixed btw)

The only more popular "old" tune I can think of that made extensive use of filters is Miami Vice. Another classic "filter tune" (although slightly more recent) is Total Recall

Nowadays most demos are designed for 8580 (as it sounds much closer to as intended on every 8580 chip), so filter is used much more than before.

I'm pretty sure that Edge of Disgrace uses resonance at some points, and definitely a good example of what can be done with SID. Another rather "filter-heavy" demo tune is in Andropolis

You could also try:
MUSICIANS/D/Dgazz/X-Dream.sid (with this, you can clearly hear various filter effects)
MUSICIANS/S/Stinsen/Coca_Koala.sid

The issue with many Amiga chiptunes is that they generally don't vary the sound enough. Often on C64 arpeggio sound is combined with pulse width modifications, filter changes, and of course ADSR envelope, while often elsewhere it's "on/off". Of course it's often like that on C64 too, and perhaps composers on other platforms are just more lazy

One of my favourite examples on how "lively" you can make SID sound: Metamorphosis by Dane. (multispeed tune though)

@Jupp3
http://youtu.be/ExftoivJ_EU?t=3m31s

check out the modulated filter :)

(though this seems to be emulated, not recorded from a real sid)

ps: pretty cool examples you posted!

pps: nobody here works with maxmsp?

Last edited by graincloud on 22-Apr-2013 at 02:30 PM.

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@Wanderer

Quote:

Wanderer wrote: @Jupp3 I was always wondering what is special about the SID chip.

Never mind the technical garbage...

It makes freeking awesome sounds & music... it's as simple as that...

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