@olegil

Apparently similar thinking (off loading) was involved with MAS player for classics. From what I've read that product was highly regarded.

Thanks for the list of categories of applications and the possibilities.

#6

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@Spirantho

" If the cheapest they could do an Amiga-compatible motherboard worked out at $600 or whatever, then there's a reason for it"

To my understanding they have not yet developed Amiga motherboard. SAM boards are designed for industrial use.

SAM boards have a lot of features that low end desktop does not need.

For example some of the things we really did not "need":
- 2 integrated Ethernet 10/100 ports (one is enough)
- 2 I2C interfaces
- SPI interfaces
- FPGA Lattice XP with 80 pin I/O expansion connector
- mini PCI Slot - 32 bits, 33 Mhz
- ZigBee module

If those parts would not have been designed for the board, design costs would have been a lot smaller.
Also board without those useless things would be a lot cheaper to produce and test.

etc. etc...

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

Quote:

To my understanding they have not yet developed Amiga motherboard. SAM boards are designed for industrial use.

Exactly... because it's near impossible to make money on OS4 exclusive hardware, so they need to have a secondary market to recoup costs.

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@Spirantho

I'm certainly not calling them stupid. However when they made their boards, the P-series from Freescale didn't exist yet. Not even on paper. There was 5121e, 8610 and 8641D. That was it.

And their reason for the prices was manufacturing overhead, return on investment and a buffer in case of recall of failed units. Plus a profit margin to help with running the business and pay the wages. Also notice how I magically switched from USD to EUR in those top-of-the-head calculations, this helps out a lot as well (Freescale prices are in USD per unit when purchasing 100 pieces).

But notice that they started out with SoCs which lack this and that, adding all those features people expect from a full computer. This is what the Amigan of 2013 demands. I'm saying that if we could accept a design without all those things, set up to use off-the-shelf PCIe cards and USB devices, we could cut a lot of manufacturing overhead, engineering resources and direct costs, while simultaneously increasing the MTBF so it could be plausible to have a smaller buffer on the profit per unit.

Also, stripping the design to where it would be plausible to make 1000 board runs instead of 100 board runs could also help with some of the costs. Less than one would hope, but every bit helps.

Here's my example reasoning for the price:
SoC 100 (P2040@800MHz), PCB 30, sockets 10, power 10 and GbE 10 USD. 30% overhead in manufacturing (common enough deal with a contract manufacturer), 50% overhead for profit and support/DOA unit handling, 25% VAT. End user price: 390USD/300EUR, plus shipping. For a 500 unit run this is plausible, but optimistic. The profit from that run would be 52kUSD/40kEUR. Doesn't leave much buffer after covering engineering costs, but the 50% can be increased to 75% to give end user price of 350EUR and profits of 60k EUR.

Find any flaws in my math?

Interestingly enough the high end CPU at 350USD (while still keeping the stripped PCB with slots, though larger PCIe connectors so adding a couple of dollars here) would come out at 900EUR in the exact same equation. That's a 2GHz dual 64bit Altivec-enabled machine, so quite possibly worth it.

Again, my whole premise is stripping unnecessary features from being soldered on, when they can just as easily be placed in a slot or USB port. If you must have more slots then it's possible to buy PCIe switch risers, adding more slots. For more USB, add hubs. And so on. All very cheap due to high volume already.

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@WolfToTheMoon

>Exactly... because it's near impossible to make money on OS4 exclusive hardware, so they need to have a secondary market to recoup costs.

Not sure if it worked out...

Developer boards are not sold in thousands. Yet servergy managed to design 199eur board.


My idea would be to design open source low end minimalistic HW (not trying to recover R&D cost untille we have 10000 users).
When the designed and manufactured beta boards run opensource OS for demonstration, look for partners for larger production run and optional OS port funding.
Parts and manufacturing seems to be little over 100eur for that kind of board. Add there testing effort, system build, radeonHD ... and we are around 200eur+AOS4 range.

If no closed source OS partner is found, go with open source ones. Try to get 10 000 orders (a little bit like with Rpi) before production run.

If one succeed to push 10 000 PPC boards in the wild, commersial niche OSs will become interested.

etc...

Grazy, perhaps? Sometimes it's needed then?

Last edited by KimmoK on 26-Feb-2013 at 04:10 PM.

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- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

Quote:

Not sure if it worked out... Developer boards are not sold in thousands. Yet servergy managed to design 199eur board.

Servergy has substantional financial backing... Acube doesn't.


The sooner both of the two PPConly Amigaoids switch to x86/x64 or ARM, the better.

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Honestly I see no way numbers will increase more than a handful here and there (while similar numbers leave).
The marketplace is too different these days to accept the price of entry, for such modestly specced systems.
While many of us know what we're in for Joe And Jill Public wont understand what the attraction is, and when comparing specs, price and functionality between OS4.x on a sam460 or X1000, and something like a Ouya, or a more traditional pc they'd think us mad.

Once upon a time the amiga was a great value, powerful machine. Nowadays it's neither. This doesnt mean we cant enjoy it, but as things stand there's too many barriers and obstacles to make it an option to many people.

Yes there was once millions of amiga users, but the vast, vast majority were simply games players who wanted the latest and greatest gaming platform. By the advent of even AGA most people moved onto greener pastures. Point being most old "amigans" didnt even use their amiga in a way that (some of) those of us left do and to use their old classic games (their reason for enjoying amiga) they'll have to use some form of UAE. Something that can be done better and cheaper elsewhere.

Unless something to parallel the RPi becomes available for Amiga then things will continue at the slow and steady pace. Something Im personally content with. At least there's an RPi port underway for AROS, which gives potential for a few new tinkerers into the fold.

On the plus side at least there's a plethora of options (AROS, MOS, OS3.X, OS4.X) so anyone who does decide they'd like to try "amiga" should be able to find a choice that matches their interest and wallet.

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

As we know, about 7 millions of amiga where sold in the good old days.

Well anywhere between 3 million and 7 million depending on what figures you use...



Quote:

Amiga is now slowly progressing.

Not sure why you say that !!!
Of the past almost 20 years out of 27 of being an Amiga user I've seen the exact opposite, the Amiga is very slowly fading away into obscurity...


Quote:

What your proposal or idea to increase the current userbase?

Can't be done without new affordable hardware and there are only a finite number of second hand machines still out there...

Somehow doubt even with new affordable hardware your going to convince enough of the brainwashed Windoze masses to even give it a try let alone make the switch...

People only seem to see computers as a tool for "social networking" or accessing the internet these days, the Amiga was a different beast altogether.. The internet wasn't even around when the Amiga appeared and was used by creative people to actually do things with their computer...

Sadly those days of actual computing are almost gone and all most people see computers for these days are a tool for online shopping and spreading brain farts...




Quote:

I just saw that a software on Aminet (http://aminet.net/mus/play/playOGG.lha) has been downloaded more than 20.000 time. This mean that there a re a lot of classic Amiga users, around. Maybe something could be done to bring those to next gen hardware. WHat do you think about?


There's a lot of "Classic" users out there, probably more than you think. Simple fact is most of then don't and never have used these Amiga forum sites. So anyone judging the amount of Amiga users still out there based on the number of members of such sites is way out with the reality of it all...


Quote:

Have you other ideas to share?

Nope... Given up on dreaming about the Amiga ever making any form of a comeback and just happy that I've still got enough "Classic" hardware left to last me until I kick the bucket...

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@Franko

Quote:

There's a lot of "Classic" users out there, probably more than you think. Simple fact is most of then don't and never have used these Amiga forum sites. So anyone judging the amount of Amiga users still out there based on the number of members of such sites is way out with the reality of it all...

now, depends how you define "amiga" the original poster is sure more about os4 in this context. and while genuine amiga users may get away without internet and forums i doubt os4 users do.

@olegil

Quote:

The problem is getting people to accept that premise, the less stuff onboard you paid for that doesn't immediately have 100% working drivers, the better. Then the motherboard basically just becomes the CPU board, and the plug-in cards become the system. Otherwise, one must make a common carrier board with plugin CPU boards, which could also work but would mean a LARGE amount of extra work and cost. So for entry level, no.

I would accept any day stripped down motherboard. I am actually surprised, that it is not done. We have enought drivers for basic peripherals. Just enought PCIe and PCI slots.

Even board with processor slot should be fine.

How about Android emulator on Amiga or
Cheap HW which dual boots OS4/Android

Sounds stupid?

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote: @Franko now, depends how you define "amiga" the original poster is sure more about os4 in this context. and while genuine amiga users may get away without internet and forums i doubt os4 users do.

Why ???

I can see how the internet might be a bit of a necessity these days for all that download the latest updates nonsense that seems to be the only way to get anything for a system (but then that's the users fault for allowing companies to force this lack of choice on them)... but...

When did forums become something necessary in order to use a computer ???

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@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

* Low cost Hardware (low spec) * Software * Fundings

If you used an existing hardware produced by 3rd party vendors then two of your issues are already solved.

The software is of course solved by the OS vendor. They are selling the OS, arent they?

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@Franko

Quote:

When did forums become something necessary in order to use a computer ???

forums or internet in general in case of os4 are mandatory, first because you need to know that it exists at all, contact the vendor, download updates. especially now that they are availabla only via amiupdate and finally to get advised on forums when all breaks down.

you know, you cant buy it in a shop around the corner and switch on home as you did with your amiga.

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

Your proposal to increase the user base?

They they have cloned cheeps before way not AmigaOS users
anther drastic methods might include extortion, or brain washing

There is only one or two ways to get more users, and they kind of work in harmony.
1. Improve the OS and software it runs,
2. Reduce price on hardware (side effect).

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Feb-2013 at 07:39 PM.

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@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote: forums or internet in general in case of os4 are mandatory, first because you need to know that it exists at all, contact the vendor, download updates. especially now that they are availabla only via amiupdate and finally to get advised on forums when all breaks down. you know, you cant buy it in a shop around the corner and switch on home as you did with your amiga.

Like I say I get the part about the internet for "updates" etc... but...

Kinda sad if you REQUIRE a forums help to get your computer up and running or worse as you say "when all breaks down"...

Doesn't say much about the product if you need to go online just to get "help" on how to use the thing does it...

It's amazing that home computing ever took off in the first place when there was no internet to "help" out the bewildered...

There's something very, very wrong if you buy a product and HAVE to go online just to figure out how to use it...

Has the modern world really became so dumbed down that no one is capable anymore of doing something simple without the need to ask others on teh interwebs...

Gawd... am I glad I aint immortal, I'd hate to be around on this planet in another 30 or 40 years time and have been absorbed by the collective...

Last edited by Franko on 26-Feb-2013 at 06:24 PM.

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@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

What your proposal or idea to increase the current userbase?

Quote:

Have you other ideas to share?

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:

Also, the current focus for devs and users is mobile.

I have said this before. I think I have said it a few times.

1. Adding mobile device, perhaps create a mobile distro of AROS to compete with Android. Make AROS run native on ARM powered mobile device, name device a new name for the product line. If these were done, and perhaps AROS made superior to Android (It can happen in time) and make AROS tablet well equipped, to the point that it is almost a touch screen ARM laptop with built in ethernet, USB, SD card, etc. Or if "laptop" is not the right description to call a high-end tablet, then perhaps I should once again call it "Tiny iMac". PowerPC device should be released as well, to add more selection.

Mainstream is switching to ARM. Or at least, they are adding more ARM products. The only advantage we have now is that they are messing things up. If AmigaOS, MorphOS, AROS, all must have native ARM support before mainstream irons things out.

I am NOT suggesting we abandon PowerPC nor should we abandon 68K. Our favorite OSs support these hardware platforms is to our advantage.

2. And if I may offer criticism: We do not even have a laptop? How long have laptops existed? Most of you might hate laptop, tablet, cell phone, mp3 player, etc. but you do not have to use them. Other people do and release of AmigaOS MorphOS AROS device would in fact increase user base. Would it make it mainstream?? Probably not, considering that there are many mobile device brands. But it would still help. And if no laptop, netbook, tablet, etc. is released then any increase of awareness of our existence would just be laughed at. It is silly that no tablet exist, and not even laptop exist! Not everybody uses just desktop now.

3. Also previously if we could some how introduce our OS into university curriculum, and then more programmers could be recruited. If you worry that they will only bring in mainstream bloatware then the solution is simple: tell them to do it better.

4. At risk of making this post off topic and spamming, I have created a website. http://www.boingblogs.com/ with sub domains of "news", "blogs", "forums", and "wiki". that are just WordPress, SimpleMachinesForum, and MediaWiki. This website is not complete. (I am only one person) but I will continue to work on it. The sites are active and ready for people to sign up. No fee.

The reason why I mention this website here is because news about AmigaOS, MorphOS, AROS, hardware, etc. can be posted on the News sub domain, people's blogs can be posted on the Blogs sub domain with an amiga themed skin and domain name for free as a nice alternative to having just a generic "wordpress" or "blogspot" domain.

And even more important reason why I post this website on this thread is because especially with the MediaWiki site, it would increase knowledge about AmigaOS MorphOS AROS, its existence, its history, and it would increase user base. Many things now have their own MediaWiki site separate from Wikipedia. I will type the articles but I will most likely enter the wrong information and if I do, please sign up for account, log in, and edit the articles so they will contain the Correct information.

5. RISC OS should be included as part of our community. I have officially included RISC OS. also I believe we should include potential hardware for AROS such as Raspberry Pi. Actually we should look at potential hardware for all OS.

6. No more fighting. Fighting is a huge embarrassment. Our multiple selection of OS is clearly an advantage to us. More new users will have a selection. Having more availability of selection does not mean one OS is superior to another and having multiple selection will increase user base in general. Think of all the Linux Distros. also think of all the people installing more than one OS on the same computer.

7. We should continue to introduce prototypes to crowd source campaign pledge funding sites.

These are seven ideas so far. I hope you like them. But even more important, I hope they help.

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@Franko

People have become so dumb that can't open physical books anymore, now they use some thing like ebooks on kindle.

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My opinion? Nostalgia. There is nothing attractive, IMO, about the PPC Amiga flavors from the outside.

Amiga was about being different to be better - better graphics, better sound, multitasking, etc - even if most people didn't see the purpose. What is better about PPC Amiga? Perhaps software efficiency, but software efficiency is useless if the software to do what users want is simply not there. So if you can't make the "new" Amiga better, the only thing left IMO is nostalgia.

There is also nothing nostalgic about PPC Amiga, IMO. I liked the idea of the Natami - go back to what people remember and love about the Amiga, and throw away anything since. Start again from the "Amiga 5000" and see what happens. Price has to be reasonable, though.

Now that the Natami is out of the picture, my money is probably on the FPGA Arcade if it's ever released in significant numbers.

As for "next gen" Amiga (OS4, MorphOS, AROS), AROS has potentially the brightest future because it supports x86 but there is not enough weight behind it. Ultimately Amiga has to move to x86 (or perhaps ARM if decent desktop solutions emerge) in order to grow.

there is only a solution: drop PowerPC.

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