@Franko

>>Biggest CPU businessess are x86, PPC, then the rest.

>So if PPC is in second place so to speak then why do I read so often on this site that PPC is dead, that's where I get confused over these debates folk have about which is better !!!

ARM is more visible nowdays that PPC.
Cheap ARM chips for phones do not generate as much money as PPC sales per unit.
That's why PPC business is bigger (according to analysis during last year).

x86 chips "just" deliver higher raw performance, but normal desktop user does not need the fastest of the world.

>>Custom HW can not be cheaper, no matter what the CPU used is.

>Again then, if you say there not much difference in the pricing of PPC vs X86 then why all the debates on them all the time ???

People compare custom motherboard price to mass produced home PC motherboard price and think that the x86 technology is cheaper in every form.

Also, Rasberry Pi (50eur locally) is so cheap because it is so simple.
For example P-Cubed PPC board is similar in design and it cost "only" about 199eur, it has better interfaces and 3x more CPU performance.
Rasberry Pi's technical advantage is that it has cell phone 3D GPU built in, while P-Cubed is only 2D output.

For desktop needs one would most likely want better than cellphone 3D, RasberryPi's CPU can not currently handle it, P-Cuped's CPU can.

So, 199eur low end board is possible with PowerPC, in low volume production.
(I have been planning hobby project with single core 1Ghz SoC, it should be doable for about 199eur with full system with RadeonHD GPU etc... AOS4/MOS/whatever licence fee then on to of that. And I would not be trying to recover development cost ... in that case it would not be a hobby for me... )

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- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

I honestly don't think the Pi is any good, even if it is cheap. It's still no more impressive than an MPC5121e (performance level of a 300MHz P2), except it has a better GPU (and yes, I'll agree to any mud-throwing anyone wants with regards to the shitty GPU of the MPC5121e ).

Comparing ARM/PPC/x86 here I've done some observations:
400MHz PPC ~ 400MHz P2/3/M ~ 700MHz P4 ~ 700MHz ARM.

Roughly, give or take quite a bit due to individual differences.
Also: Going 64 bit doesn't really help on speed (unlike the 8-16-32 bit transitions. 32 bit is just big enough for most uses). More memory is always cool, though.

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This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@Franko

If you really want a good debate, don't use terms like braindead, "Gawd aint you dead yet", "Get a life little man", " until you seek psychiatric help". Need I say more?


And personally I would like at tablet running AOS4.x and also a laptop running AOS 4.x

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I consider it a fact that hardware is increasingly becoming a commodity. In addition, companies are increasingly relying on virtualization for various aspects of computing needs.

In addition, one can reach out further in the marketplace with a lower price. There's simply a larger consumer base that can buy one's product.

...
I don't know if Amiga could ever be saved unless some big corporate somehow took up the charge. I think instead making a competitive product based upon a processor emulation layer makes some good sense. Most all of the ARM or X86 today can emulate an Amiga faster than the good old 040 or previous.

I know many will disagree. And that's just fine they can hold their views.

I feel until Amiga can meet other players on a near equal $/processing field it clearly won't go anywhere beyond a dwindling niche hobbist platform.

@Franko

As you know, the current PPC hardware that Amiga OS4.x runs on is very expensive. It doesn't look likely that this will ever change since the only suitable hardware is made by tiny companies with limited funding. That is why people like to discuss the possibility of used Macs, x86 and ARM.

To be honest this type of discussion is all pretty redundant since Hyperion ultimately chooses which hardware OS4 can run on and which it can't and the same old discussions in however many years has never changed that

I'm not even sure why ARM is a consideration since it is generally only offered in phones and tablets to which OS4 is not at all suited. Making a desktop ARM board with all hardware/expansion expected by OS4 users would be just as expensive as the current PPC hardware.

With regards to laptop hardware for OS4, some people want portable hardware because they don't spend a lot of time in the same place and a laptop, netbook is easily moved. Some people just like to be able to move it around the house, do some work in the study or watch a film lying down in bed all on the same machine.
IIRC Xeron said it would be nice to have a portable OS4 system so he could write/test code during his daily commute on the train.

@BrianK

How do you define "Amiga" here? In the sense of PPC-based systems? If "Amiga" runs on the same hardware as the competition and makes full use of the hardware it would be faster than any of the competitors.

@Yssing

Quote:

Yssing wrote: @Franko If you really want a good debate, don't use terms like braindead, "Gawd aint you dead yet", "Get a life little man", " until you seek psychiatric help". Need I say more? And personally I would like at tablet running AOS4.x and also a laptop running AOS 4.x

Sigh... POT, KETTLE, BLACK

Ironic such a reply coming from a man who's very first post in this thread started with the following words...

Quoote by Yssing.
Quote:

Obvious trolling,

Perhaps before giving out such "advice" you should think about your own words and apply your advice to yourself first....

Again I thank you for your answer to the actual questions asked but please cut out the "point scoring" attempts and apply you own advice to your own posts, then we could have a good "debate"...

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@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote: @Franko With regards to laptop hardware for OS4, some people want portable hardware because they don't spend a lot of time in the same place and a laptop, netbook is easily moved. Some people just like to be able to move it around the house, do some work in the study or watch a film lying down in bed all on the same machine. IIRC Xeron said it would be nice to have a portable OS4 system so he could write/test code during his daily commute on the train.

You know that may be a very obvious answer to that part of my question but believe it or not it simply never occurred to me...

You see the only time I use a computer is when I'm sitting down in front of it at a desk (always have done for 30 odd years) so I guess out of my own habits I kinda assume / take it for granted that everyone else does too...

That's given me a whole new perspective on that question...

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@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote: @Franko [quote]Because what KimmoK reports is CPU business, not PC business. PPC is not used in any mainstream PC, which is the argument referred to.

See, that for me is where I get confused when people talk about these different CPUs...

KimmoK gave me answers which seem perfectly logical to me and then someone else (you in this case) tell me something different....

Kinda makes it difficult to figure out whom is actually right...


Quote:

Ill-informed debaters? And I find it funny that you ask the guy arguing case X why his opponents argue against said case (yes, it's always good to see the point from both sides, but if you ask the opponents this they will pull in all sorts of theories like "fanboy", "brainwashed" etc, never even touching on the technical arguments made by me and KimmoK).

I always like to hear someones own side of something and also why they think the other persons views are wrong...

The more answers you get to a question the easier it is (usually) to come to a reasonable and fair conclusion as to who's side of things you personally think is more accurate or correct or indeed whether you think or agree either side of the argument at all...

You don't get answers to things if you don't ask and you can't come to your own conclusions in a debate without taking into consideration the views of all others first....

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@Franko

I didnt read any responses, so I apologize if others have covered this, but I think it simply comes down to people wanting to mix their interest in the amiga platform with some "modern world" computing.

Yes these "modern world" things can be done elsewhere (and often better), but if a person can make do on a system they enjoy, rather than one out of necessity, then why the heck not? :)

For better or worse computing trends change, this cant be avoided, but mixing the old and new for some is a decent compromise. If it wasnt seen this way then there'd have been no desire for a single NG option let alone the three (one of which has multiple variations).

@OlafS25

Quote:

How do you define "Amiga" here? In the sense of PPC-based systems? If "Amiga" runs on the same hardware as the competition and makes full use of the hardware it would be faster than any of the competitors.

Again I'm fully open to people disagreeing.

But to me personally the Amiga is no longer a set of hardware. That Paula, Agnes, Denise which I grew up on is dead. The PowerPC systems are fairly the same as x86 systems. - AGP/PCI video cards, DD2 RAM, PCI/e bus system. The one exception I might consider is the Xena is more of an Amiga-esque approach. But, without a good price competitiveness it's stuck as a great niche idea within a niche hobbist area.

So, I guess to me the AmigaOS is the 'Amiga'. It runs Amiga software and acts as the Amiga. What would we call this today? The Amiga App? It gets my jobs done in the Amiga way. ImageFX is run more often in AmigaForever than booting up my old 060/PPC A4K because it screams in performance. Heck ImageFX has a preview plane which I use all the time on the A4K but on a new x86 - I typically render and undo the full render. Seeing it all full screen instead of thumbnail is awesome.

And yes a native Amiga should always be faster than a virtual Amiga. The plus of the virtual Amiga is the potential to install it on whatever piece of hardware one desires. x86, ARM, MIPS, PowerPC, it just doesn't matter. The small virtualization piece takes care of the emulated CPU to real CPU translation.

Think back to TransMeta who had the idea to build a CPU which would morph itself into whatever CPU was needed. Great idea. Just move the moving into the Virtual to Physical translation layer.

Without some big bucks we won't see an Amiga in anything other than a desktop. Amiga Virtualization gives us an Amiga Phone, Amiga on a Tablet, Amiga on a Chromebook, Amiga on my SmartTV, etc.

Last edited by BrianK on 28-Feb-2013 at 07:53 PM.

@BrianK

While I have no qualms with that, and in fact love my amithlon box (well did rather, mobo unfortunately needs replacing) the problem there is that it leaves little room for improvements/advancements.

Yes emulation/virtualization speeds improve as its host hardware improves, but there's little motivation for a developer to push an emulated system when the host is so much more capable.

OS3.x/68k is where my main interest lay, so for the most part this is all inconsequential for me, but relying on some form of emulation leaves a system with no choice but to be somewht behind its host in terms of potential.

@Franko

I dont know, if this answer your question.

Yeah, OS4 is for me "official" way. It doesnt matter wich cpu. Actually I feel, that X86 should be fine, but ppc is fine allso. I'm more intel-guy by work, but amd seems more viable, because of ongoing radeon development. And both are just fine for me.

I could buy and use classic with 3.9 and 040/060, no problem. Preferably a4000 with zorro/pci, as I have bunch of zorro cards. With that I can reach some old proggies, wich doesnt work with NG mobos.

And 3.9, because I cannot cope prices of second hand PPC/68x cards. I might pay ~400e, but 1200e for second hand, fragile 604/233 / 68060/50 is about most ridiculous, what I'm heard recent years or never before.

@Franko

I guess you should choose your words and sentences more carefull then. If I could "mis" read you initial posting as trolling, and apparently I am not the only one, then it might come down to the way you formulate yourself.

just saying

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@Yssing

Quote:

Yssing wrote: @Franko I guess you should choose your words and sentences more carefull then. If I could "mis" read you initial posting as trolling, and apparently I am not the only one, then it might come down to the way you formulate yourself. just saying

You could indeed I suppose "mis-read" my first post but from previous experience of this site and certain members that is why I specifically went out of my way in my first post to say... and I quote...

Quote:

Don't go off yer trollies that I'm having a dig at you, cos I'm not...

So it would take a lot of "mis-reading" to miss that obvious point I clearly made in the hope to avoid replies such as your first one...

Like I say, take heed of your own advice and apply it to yourself then there would be no need for you and I to go over and over this "off topic" subject....

As for the "others", well that should be "other", the guy has problems that I don't understand nor care too based on his past comments directed at me and my family...

But hey at the end of the day I asked some questions that I was hoping to find answers too and happily for me for the most part I have received many answers from genuinely helpful members whom have given me a lot of answers to my questions and I thank them all for taking the time to do that...

Last edited by Franko on 28-Feb-2013 at 09:33 PM.

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@Franko

About the cpu: I dont really care what cpu it as as long as its widely used, which means cheaper and faster. Why faster, blender (raytracing), hd-rec (music, reverb and other cpu needing effects/softsynths), mplayer (movies with high resolution), modern browsers, craving games (future games when we get opengl and rewritten gfx). amicygnix (dont use much but for thoose that uses it) and all other stuff that needs faster cpu. In other words 3rd party apps and games.

About the laptop: For the touchscreen i dont see much of use as os/programs are made for used the traditional way, mouse and keyboard. Why i would need a laptop ? To bring with me when im out playing my music. Like this saturday i will play my music at a techno party. I will do it mixing with CD's but if i had an amigalaptop it would let others see what i use to produce my music. You probably see alot of apple laptops on parties these days, easier to bring then all external synthesizers and a computer in a tower and monitor. I can see use for programmers too as they can code wherever they go on their favourite machine. On the train, semester, at work when having free time.

I myself bring with me my Asus laptop, run winuae and my smaller synthesizer to make music when on summer vacation. I normally take 5-6 weeks so rainy days its nice to do it. Its easy to connect to an external monitor for bigger screen and external keyboard and mouse. Like having a normal desktop feeling. When i watch movies i have on the harddrive i just connect it to big tv with hdmi or if having a smart-tv use the wifi.

Laptop = for easy bringing with me wherever i go. It could also replace desktop/tower computer if the speed is good for my purpose. Like now the asus laptop is my main computer (i5 cpu) and does everything. But then its win7 on it. SSD makes it enjoyable.

@fishy_fis

Quote:

While I have no qualms with that, and in fact love my amithlon box (well did rather, mobo unfortunately needs replacing) the problem there is that it leaves little room for improvements/advancements.

The advancement should be in the OS and it's capabilities. Certainly that can be continued to be pushed.

Quote:

but relying on some form of emulation leaves a system with no choice but to be somewht behind its host in terms of potential.

I don't know if emulation doesn't get us to any worse place than we are now. As fun and good as AmigaOS4.x is, it certainly feels still behind the times. (I really am not trying to rip my little Amiga. She's a good system and there's a good job being done considering the marketsize and resources available.) But, we are missing things like USB3.x, SATA 6Gb, multicore CPU? It's kinda stuck on expensive and comparably less capable hardware.

Which was my point - hardware has become such a commodity. Lower performance and higher cost hardware isn't attractive outside the niche of existing Amiga lovers. I wonder how many X1000 owners never owned an Amiga before?

I'd love to see AmigaApp for a Virtual platform. I'd run the Amiga more if I could have it on my dual core ARM in my pocket, tablet, and desktop. Even if an Amiga phone and tablet existed I doubt I'd buy 2 tablets and 2 phones.

Well Franko, you could ask without insulting people.

Anyway I really don't want to waste my time on you.

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@Yssing

Quote:

Yssing wrote: Well Franko, you could ask without insulting people. Anyway I really don't want to waste my time on you.

I did ask without insulting people !!!

You chose to insult me with the very first words of your first post in this thread...

Now as you're obviously incapable of accepting that and are in denial of that (despite the evidence being there for all to see) and are obviously just here trying to wind me up, I really do hope you waste no more time on me but I doubt it, as you seem incapable of that as well...

So please for once in your life stick to your own advice and make sure you also stick to your word and don't waste any more time with me as it will just make you look like you are a liar...

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@Kicko

Quote:

Kicko wrote: @Franko About the laptop: For the touchscreen i dont see much of use as os/programs are made for used the traditional way, mouse and keyboard. Why i would need a laptop ? To bring with me when im out playing my music. Like this saturday i will play my music at a techno party. I will do it mixing with CD's but if i had an amigalaptop it would let others see what i use to produce my music.

Well that explains why for you a laptop is a handy thing as you use it as part of your work (or is it a hobby) so I can see why a laptop for yourself is a good thing...


Quote:

You probably see alot of apple laptops on parties these days, easier to bring then all external synthesizers and a computer in a tower and monitor.

Believe it or not I've never seen a laptop or a computer at any parties I go to, everyone I know still uses CDs or even vinyl, one or two do have HD devices like I tend to for the most part... (Brennan)


Quote:

I can see use for programmers too as they can code wherever they go on their favourite machine. On the train, semester, at work when having free time.

That is simply something I will never understand. Taking a computer with you everywhere in public to me is quite simply anti social and a waste of other experiences of life...

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