@olegil

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Maybe we should get back to the days when everything was measured by how good an AREXX port it had? REXX opens up a whole world of possibilities even for a novice user.

Absolutely, the first thing an author of new software should write is an ARexx port, it's easier than ever with arexx.class;

All actions should be scriptable. A macro record option would be good to add where appropriate too (just added that to SketchBlock BTW).


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Why would you need to buy an app for batch processing your files when your existing software can do it and you can script the batch processing in a few minutes in a text editor (or even better, someone could make a GUI system for AREXX).

ProAction? GUI for any scripting language which can create a ARexx port.
Quote:

I would think that most software which has some for of scripting system can be modified to ALSO have an AREXX port.

Defintely, my blender port has an ARexx port, command set is simple, START STOP QUIT RUNPYTHONSCRIPT (or similar can't remeber the exact comands at the moment) but that gives you full automation, which you could combine with imagefx / sketchblock/ whatever for exceptionaly powerful setups.

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BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad

@AmigaBlitter

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Not only "new" nerd, but old nerd also, as well as professional it people.

And what is it that should attract these people?, i doubt nostalgia or being different is enough to make a improvement big enough to really matter.

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Last time i heard the now standard word about Amiga was friday, by a Microsoft employee: an amiga computer is produced in Italy? "Amiga Still exist?"

Problaly still a lot of people that would be surprised to hear that.

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@SlayeR__

Quote:

And what is it that should attract these people?, i doubt nostalgia or being different is enough to make a improvement big enough to really matter.

Yes, you're right, but this could have been different ten years ago, when people yet remember Amiga.

It's too late now? Now really we can only count to attract ex amigans.

Hurry up! Hurry up!

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retired

@AmigaBlitter

your case is exactly an example why os4 has so much issues with credibility. the situation is as it is, it is not much different than on morphos or aros or say in the genuine amiga camp. eduacted users like broadblues or karlos may not have so much problems with it, since they do not fall for propaganda and rather have based their choice and support on dry facts and a little reasonable personal sentiment.

the problem is with users who get mislead by substanceless claims, promisses, announcements and general lack of fair communications which they fill in with their own phantasies. this, also having so high costs of (blind) entry must finally lead to dissapointment earlier or later.

Amigaoids will remain a niche OS for the forseeable future, due to the unfortunate choices made more than 10 years ago. I don't expect an increase in user numbers, only decline... 68K will always be popular, but as far as NG Amigaoids, I don't see a future there, unless a major change happens.

What, IMO, should NG Amigaoids strive for in a effort to increase user base...

For starters, not PPC.

Secondly, the OS needs to drop backwards compatibility and introduce both SMP and, even more importantly, memory prtection. The sooner this is done, less work will be needed to recompile currently ported and supported software. This should happen together with the ISA change.

Third, the OS should be properly documented so that even novice users and devs do not feel lost.

Fourth, crossplatform development tools and languages would be most beneficial(JAVA, HTML5, maybe C#/MONO if possible...)

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@AmigaBlitter

Glad you liked the video My favourite.

On a more serious note, and getting back to what you complained about :

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It's 2013, but i don't see a proper Amiga rebirth, as we hoped years ago.

An Amiga rebirth can only take place in your head. No real-world Amiga rebirth is ever going to happen. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you can start enjoying what we have.

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1) The os still freeze here and there (after updates improving, but still freeze a lot

No, I can't say I'm experiencing system instability: AmigaOS has improved tremendously since 3.x times in this respect. OS4 is much less permissive as regards writing hackish software, which improves the overall stability of the ecosystem. If I now get a crash, it's either from using old, badly-written software, or from cocking things up when I'm programming

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6) The community still divided

Well, the good thing is that the division is no longer a camp war. Rather, it's the outcome of different evolution the individual branches went through. They are now separate systems with separate user-bases, and separate experience that we wouldn't want to exchange for anything else. Why would we want to unify, losing individuality and making compromises in the process? What actually makes me go and hug the nearest MorphOS/AROS user - the fact that we both had a Commodore Amiga twenty years ago? Hardly. Sure it'll be good and sensible to cooperate on standards shared across the platforms - but if you really want Life, Love and Unity, and you want it quick, play a Dreadzone record instead, it's much easier to come by

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AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

@broadblues

And someone needs to sit down and think about video processing. Being able to interact with the surfaces of a scene as seen by the human mind (rather than the 2D surface of the image) would be totally awesome.

I bet this is even something that could be multiprocessed

Imagine simply walking around with a camcorder, coming home to your Amiga and morphing in 2D and 3D elements as needed to make a feature film. Anyone can put a scrolling credits text on a home video, so this step should simply be skipped alltogether

Actually, I think that's the killer app we need.

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This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@Trixie

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. Sure it'll be good and sensible to cooperate on standards shared across the platforms

alone that is impossible in this atmosphere and attitude, when os4 core maintainers are claiming the other alternatives are non existent for them including genuine amiga (which at least can be considered, lets say, "discontinued"). of course there are positive counterexamples like salass with his diskimage device and accompanying set of libraries and of course there is aros, open to almost everything. but this is for one pretty one sided, and also not essential enough to be effective. so just let it be.

@Birbo

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Well, my proposal is not about working together. I honestly don't believe that this will be possible...

I agree, it's not possible nor should it be anyone's goal. The situation over the past 12+ years is far worse then what we all had hoped for. There are no clear financial winner, just multiple losers which has lead to the stagnation we, the Amiga Community, face as our reality. Over the past 12+ years, the vast majority of our community has simply walked away to which I can not blame them and in fact, think they were spot on to do so. In 2013, what is left is a broken and dysfunction family that seems to only know how to fight among themselves in a never ending tribal war lead on by the elders who seem only remain alive purely by spite alone. Obviously that is not a healthy environment to be in nor will it produce anything viable.

What is needed is a Follow On Generation that shows respect to the original culture but is indifferent on the rush for fools gold that has plagued the NG communities since 1994. A Follow On Generation must be focused on financial success in today's and tomorrow's markets regardless on how many past sacred cows have to be gored. A successful Follow On Generation must push to the outside looking for a new fertile land for only financial success will bring growth and growth will bring financial success.

Dammy

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Dammy

@tlosm

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... because thanks of Gallium 3D accelleration the system will become more stable because the cpu will be not 100% used for do all the graphic process, streaming and video decoding.

a) adding new componets to any SW increases the chances of serious bugs (even more if those components haven't been really tested before).

b) a SW (OS or not) that becomes unstable just by added workload has some serious issues that can NOT be cured by reducing the workload

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@AmigaBlitter

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1) The os still freeze here and there (after updates improving, but still freeze a lot) 2) We do not really have (and we really need) to low cost hardware 3) Laptop, netbook or notebook? 4) We do not have a decent browser yet 5) The graphic still very slow in many areas (can not even run properly in dosbox game or an emulated Amiga game) 6) The community still divided 7) Amiga is loosing His hown personality 8) ... 9) ... ...

Well, when not being caught in troll wars, I am known as being over optimistic so, I will look at the bright side of this point in time:

1) System is way more stable then original OS 4.0, and OS 4.1, while updates introduced nice new features. Bugfixes are coming via AmiUpdate, and finally there are support forum and blog as well as nice AmigaOS website. Things finally begin to shape, and I am really eager to buy OS 4.2 as soon as out.
2) Since we are fanatic community, I am not sure even we had low end thing like Efika for MorphOS, that alone would save the day. In the end these are machines that run Linux, AROS and AmigaOS (MorphOS users have a nice option of MacOSX that adds to flavour thanks to smart choice!)
3) Mobile platform would be nice, I always throught small form factor of SAM 440/460 could provide a nice basis for this. If OS gets some touchscreen support, maybe we could have kind of bigger version of development kits.
http://acube-systems.biz/index.php?page=hardware&pid=755
On netbook story it seems simply manufacturer failed to make it cheap and availiable, so OS4 pot in progress became ... pointless.Steven recently claimed its on hold. But it might provide basis to add nettop features to OS, kind of like SAM 460/X1000 provided basis for support of PCI-E cards and SMP.
4) MUI OWB is great improvement and Timberwolf is unfinished. But yet when I remember OS came with Ibrowse ... well, after OS 4.2 is out (or about that time) I hope both TW and OO will be at least usable, making modern productivity possible
5) I assume you speak of 9200 card? I believe software (DOS Box and UAE) needs some optimization as its pure 2D. With UAE, JIT coming closer then ever!
6) True. But yet SAM 460 introduction and X1000 seems to bring some more users on. I like also wide Linux support for X1000 and forthcoming MorphOS for SAM 460. If nothing, Linux and AROS are common factors as well as discussion boards and I see quite a lot development and less and less flamming
7) I dont think so. Major possible factor of division and losing identity as I see it, is gone.

Yes, its mostly guess and waiting, but as I say, finally things become to have shape.
And future looks way brighter in 2010, 2008,2006 or 2004, even I do understand frustration.

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Quote: many user that are left are emotional fixed to one of the flavors, they would never even look at a other OS. So it is not rational, otherwise certainly there would be more movement in the market. Even if f.e. Hyperion or MorphOS-Team would drop their OS officially many would stick to what they have and then leave instead of trying out alternatives.

I am not sure about this. I am looking forward to MorphOS port for SAM 460, and that is a big plus for SAM 460 as board I am saving for (since its likely I will not catch the last batch of X1000 in time)
I do believe if there was a common hardware, people would try it. I am testing every regular IcarOS on my x86. I just dont have a PPC Mac as it was hellish expensive way back in pre 2006.

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@WolfToTheMoon Quote: What, IMO, should NG Amigaoids strive for in a effort to increase user base... For starters, not PPC. Secondly, the OS needs to drop backwards compatibility and introduce both SMP and, even more importantly, memory prtection. The sooner this is done, less work will be needed to recompile currently ported and supported software. This should happen together with the ISA change. Third, the OS should be properly documented so that even novice users and devs do not feel lost. Fourth, crossplatform development tools and languages would be most beneficial(JAVA, HTML5, maybe C#/MONO if possible...)

Completely agree with wishlist, while backwards compatibility can be retained via emulation boxes (MorphOS promised this too ...). However, SMP, limited memory protection and development tools might be introduced before. But, way I see it that will never happen it we dont support what we have now, as we have crossed very hard period since 1994 or 1999 or 2004 or 2006 or 2010 ...

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C= Amiga goes x86

This has been addressed.

Last edited by vox on 29-May-2013 at 04:35 PM.
Last edited by vox on 29-May-2013 at 04:31 PM.

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@olegil

Quote:

Maybe we should get back to the days when everything was measured by how good an AREXX port it had? REXX opens up a whole world of possibilities even for a novice user.

Isn't this a rather nerdy 1990s opinion? Which software exactly sells well and is in wide use because of its scriptability? Word? Photoshop? Premiere?

_________________
The Rear Window blog

AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

@olegil

Quote:

And someone needs to sit down and think about video processing. Being able to interact with the surfaces of a scene as seen by the human mind (rather than the 2D surface of the image) would be totally awesome. I bet this is even something that could be multiprocessed Imagine simply walking around with a camcorder, coming home to your Amiga and morphing in 2D and 3D elements as needed to make a feature film. Anyone can put a scrolling credits text on a home video, so this step should simply be skipped alltogether Actually, I think that's the killer app we need.

You mean camera tracking?

Blender 2.6 handles that:

http://youtu.be/CVPcT0dJmoY

I think it's possible with 2.49 and additional software.

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BroadBlues On Blues BroadBlues On Amiga Walker Broad

@AmigaBlitter

I can agree with some of the things you mention, but can say this.....

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1) The os still freeze here and there (after updates improving, but still freeze a lot)

What machine do you have? I had this problem with my micro A1....mostly in the summer. But when I put it downstairs in the basement, I almost NEVER get any sort of lockups or freezes with OS4.1 update 6. It is rock solid. As has been mentioned before, the original A1s had heat sinks on the CPU processors that were not flowed properly...so they are susceptible to failures unless kept externally cool.

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2) We do not really have (and we really need) to low cost hardware

Wow! This is true..but compared to 4 or 5 years ago, we HAVE HARDWARE CHOICES! Yes, it is only high end to very high end prices....but I am so happy to have a choice to actually be able to buy an AmigaOne...when all the doomsayers insisted there woulsd NEVER BE ANY HARDWARE to run OS4 on. If someone made an AmigaOne laptop, people would complain there was no netbook. If we had an AmigaOne netbook, people would complain we had no AmigaOne tablet...etc etc.

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4) We do not have a decent browser yet

Timberwolf is really good...I am looking forward to a new release! Yes, I hope this improves soon!

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5) The graphic still very slow in many areas (can not even run properly in dosbox game or an emulated Amiga game)

Hmmm...I have been playing some 3D games with DOSBOX that are amazingly fast...I am very surprised at how well they work and playable they are. Same with RuninUAE UAE emulation....incredibly fast and only getting faster when JIT comes out. As for Petunia...it makes the many workbench friendly 68k programs lightening fast. I have heard thios complaint from people before...it makes me wonder...how is their system set up? do you have a 600Mhz CPU? My micro A1 with its G3 800MHz runs both UAE and DOSBOX VERY fast. Also Basilisk 2 and the Playstation emulator. Great stuff!

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6) The community still divided

Totally agree. Someone come up with a way to reconcile Hyperion and MorphOS so the talents and features are combined and both make scads of money selling the combined OS....anyone know how that can be done?

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7) Amiga is loosing His own personality

Hmmm...My OS4.1 Amiga is an Amiga through and through. AROS and MorphOS are different...in some ways better,in some ways worse. But NOT just like Amiga OS classic. OS4 "feels" like the Amiga I used as my primary computer for over 10 years in the 1980s and 1990s, only a lot faster and better. Same personality. That's why I prefer it.

Just my thoughts.....

Scott

Last edited by scabit on 29-May-2013 at 08:31 PM.

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AmigaOne uA1-c 512M RAM - Only Amiga Makes It Possible!
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@broadblues

cool, stuff looks fun.

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Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

@wawa

Quote:

the problem is with users who get mislead by substanceless claims, promisses, announcements and general lack of fair communications which they fill in with their own phantasies. this, also having so high costs of (blind) entry must finally lead to dissapointment earlier or later.

So true, this applies to every OS out there. I enjoy OS4 because I do work at making my system stable, & it is. If something goes wrong, I can usually figure out why, unlike any other OS, we all get comfortable with what we know in life. The only bad OS is in our head's, don't isten to others too much, learn for yourself what works for you.

We all want a system we can make do what we want, the down side is stability issues, quit blaming the OS & learn what works & what doesn't.

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Hate tends to make you look stupid...

@Birbo

Quote:

So please help me to get all the parties together: - AROS - ACube - A-EON - Hyperion - MorphOS

As much as most of us would love to see everyone come together, it just won't happen. AROS & MOS are just developer teams, not companies. The hatred at the top level of Hyperion & MorphOS will never die on either side, just that simple. To much has been said & done over time that can't be forgotten or undone.

Hatred is just pure evil

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Hate tends to make you look stupid...

@AmigaBlitter

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AmigaBlitter wrote: 1) The os still freeze here and there (after updates improving, but still freeze a lot)

I have to say that was my experience as well, on OS4.1. Perhaps compounded by the somewhat rough support for the SAM460 board.

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2) We do not really have (and we really need) to low cost hardware 3) Laptop, netbook or notebook?

This will not happen so long as PPC is the focus, as others have said.

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4) We do not have a decent browser yet

I have to say I found OWB mostly useable, for simple sites. Mostly useless for "big" sites with heavy CSS/JS. What I was surprised at is that this was the case, considering processor and memory wise a similar specced PC running Doze or Linux (or an old PPC Mac, say) would have a nicer browsing experience. I'm not sure why this would be, but maybe its the graphics stack. Or networking?

And Timbrewolf, while an impressive technical achievement, wasn't fast enough to be useable, sadly.

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5) The graphic still very slow in many areas (can not even run properly in dosbox game or an emulated Amiga game)

The only issues I had here were with overlay and the like. Can't say I did much gaming though.

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6) The community still divided

This will be the case so long as there are multiple platforms ie. APIs.

This will likely be my last post here. I "rejoined" the Amiga "community" back in September on a bit of a whim. It was fun for a little while and I don't regret having a play with OS4 an finding out where Amiga had got to in the last 15 or so years since I stopped using my old 1200.

The summary for me is as follows. I don't really care what people think of these views, I'm just getting this off my chest so I can move on.

1. The lack of memory protection in the OS is a critical shortcoming if it is to be used "seriously". This should IMO be viewed as being more important then multiple core, multiple GB memory support, etc. This was by far the biggest "culture shock" when I came back to Amiga OS. And combined with the general system stability left me with a somewhat painful experience. Sadly just like OSX vs OS9, this can't easily be fixed without massive compatibility problems.
2.. PPC is dead and therefore OS4 (and presumably morphOS) are dead in the water and both should be jumping to x86 or ARM.
3. The pragmatic conclusion is that AROS should be the focus of Amiga dev. Open source will win in the end. Combined with the x86 advantage, this seems like a no brainer to me.
4. AROS, last time I looked at it, had a somewhat crap desktop though and crashed a lot. Maybe it's better now.
5. I see MorphOS can run on iBooks G4s. If I can get my old one to work, I will finally give this a spin. Just for fun.
6. The general fracturing and lack of a common API (unless you go back down to intuition/gadtools/mui3) is crippling for application and opensource style dev. This is why I didn't bother doing any Amiga dev in the end - there are no high level common APIs that are reasonable to program too without having a fraction of an already tiny userbase.

Amigas are still cool. I have fond memories of many many years on my 1200. I cut my teeth with C programming, perl, and learning how a real OS worked. But as a modern, internet capable, decent, reliable desktop it is just not there.

Finally AW.net is cool. I'll keep coming here, just to see how things are going.

Bye,

Last edited by Aslak3 on 29-May-2013 at 11:23 PM.

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Blog

@sundown

Quote:

@wawa Quote: the problem is with users who get mislead by substanceless claims, promisses, announcements and general lack of fair communications which they fill in with their own phantasies. this, also having so high costs of (blind) entry must finally lead to dissapointment earlier or later. So true, this applies to every OS out there. I enjoy OS4 because I do work at making my system stable, & it is. If something goes wrong, I can usually figure out why, unlike any other OS, we all get comfortable with what we know in life. The only bad OS is in our head's, don't isten to others too much, learn for yourself what works for you. We all want a system we can make do what we want, the down side is stability issues, quit blaming the OS & learn what works & what doesn't.

in short: if something doesnt work, blame yourself? like whenyour ball pen doesnt write its your fault because you write something wrong rather tha look for another pen that works?

besides i dont want to learn what works and what not. i prefer to learn whats broken and have it improved.

@Aslak3

i told you that from the start. but somtimes one has to find out the hard way.
anyway +1 on almost all what you wrote including that aros has a crap desktop.
hope either morphos or aros will work better for you and keep you wit us. or maybe some old 1200? :D