@PR

You can't expect good judgment, after all, this is Amiga!

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@all

Quote:

PR wrote: Instructions are made, XE is still broken. Why is this not possible? Because it seems to be.. 4.0 and 4.1 buyed. Then the machine is broken and no help. Only way is get it for a few loose G4 macs. For free, not paying ridicolous sums again. Lost my nerve...

Let me take a stab at translating the question from PR for everyone:

MorphOS was made for Mac without issue. WTF is the real reason Amiga OS 4.x programmers can not do the same?

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@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote: @PR So your machine is broken, out of warranty, and you want someone to help you out because you have paid for software? Right. Microsoft will probably give you and new PC if your old one breaks as well. And I probably have a bridge here you'll be interested in.

I think he (as a Hyperion customer) wants to know why Hyperion won't port to Mac. Clearly it is do-able, the MorphOS team proved that.

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

MorphOS was made for Mac without issue.

AROS was made for x86 without issue. WTF is the real reason MorphOS programmers can not do the same?

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @fairlanefastback Quote: MorphOS was made for Mac without issue. AROS was made for x86 without issue. WTF is the real reason MorphOS programmers can not do the same?

True, but lets be fair, the MorphOS community is a relatively happy customer base. They have easy access to cheap hardware even though its not x86.

PV is asking a question MANY folks have asked over the years. The only answer I ever saw was "it can't be done, we don't have hardware documentation". And yet the MorphOS team accomplished it. Its always been a valid question, like it or not.

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

wants to know why Hyperion won't port to Mac.

Enough joking. I don´t know. Maybe they don´t want to support 10 years old "alien" hardware?

I think it is better to support modern features like PCIe (Radeon HD cards).

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @fairlanefastback I think it is better to support modern features like PCIe (Radeon HD cards).

Thats nice. Of course many would think its better to support hardware that could grow the user base in a more meaningful way. Especially when you consider that AmigaOS is a hobby OS, not a modern one.


Quote:

I don´t know. Maybe they don´t want to support 10 years old "alien" hardware?

Thats of course their right. Last I heard though they stuck simply with "we can't even if we wanted to" which never made much sense in light of MorphOS working on the hardware.

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this thread sounds like an old record, but anyway...

It requires years of work to support Apple HW that has no open documentation. And after that there would be no-one producing the HW for those that want new HW instead of dumbster PPC Macs.

As we know, one can do PPC HW also cheaply (200eur for ready built HW). One day someone will do it also for Amigans.



(I'm pretty sure AOS4 for Apple HW would happen if someone would pay for the port, but with that kind of money, we also can get new (more modern) PPC HW in production and that is more sane thing to do.)

Last edited by KimmoK on 24-Feb-2013 at 02:52 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 24-Feb-2013 at 02:47 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 24-Feb-2013 at 02:47 PM.

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@utri007

"I wouldn't use any other OS than Mac OS with Apple hardware."

I recommend you try anyway. MOS is lightyears ahead of OSX on PPC. It's like switching on the afterburner of your old Mac.

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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

Of course many would think its better to support hardware that could grow the user base in a more meaningful way.

Both MorphOS and AmigaOS developers did choose their way. MorphOS has plenty of cheap G4 (and soon G5) class Apple hardware, but supports only R300 GFX (10 years old!). AmigaOS is available only for expensive hardware, but supports up to HD7000 GFX cards. Quake1/2/3 benchmark on A1-500/RadeonHD and PowerMacG5/R300 could be interesting.

Edit: Assuming 3D will be supported this year by OS4/MorphOS on these cards.

Last edited by pavlor on 24-Feb-2013 at 02:51 PM.

If Hyperion supported the Mac, they'd destroy the few companies making Amiga hardware (A-Cube, A-Eon, etc.).

No hardware makers means locked into increasingly geriatric cast-offs from the Mac world.

Hardly a good strategy if you want to keep moving forward....

Currently we have new hardware being developed, using modern technologies (PCI-E, SATA3, USB3, RadeonHD). We have bespoke hardware that's brand new - hardware with its own identity rather than piggy-backing on another company's hardware.

Given the choice, i.e. a) use cheap hardware and be stuck with it for eternity or b) use expensive hardware and have the latest technologies and hardware that can truly be called "ours", then to me it's a bit of a no-brainer. Cost is more but the reward is much more... and with the current line of Sam440s, even the cost isn't that much any more.

@fairlanefastback

As far as I remember there were legal reasons they could not. Not sure they can now, but as a commercial enterprise I, personally, would not port an OS to old Apple PPC hardware. And if they are doing it as a hobby, as in "hobby OS" they might not find enjoyment in porting to old Apple PPC hardware, it's theur decision how they spend their time.

Why is there a need to stir up the same old soup each and every few months again?

if someone wants an aAmiga-like OS on x86 he can go AROS or WinUAE, if one likes Amiga-like OS on Apple PPC hardware there is MorphOS and if you like AmigaOS 4x, go with Sam (more available models to chose from) or X1000 (if/when available)

@Spirantho

I agree with you

@Spirantho

Quote:

No hardware makers means locked into increasingly geriatric cast-offs from the Mac world. Hardly a good strategy if you want to keep moving forward....

On the other hand, now you're locked into an increasingly expensive PPC gear like X1000 and Sam460.

Both paths lead the same way...

_________________

@Spirantho

Quote:

Spirantho wrote: If Hyperion supported the Mac, they'd destroy the few companies making Amiga hardware (A-Cube, A-Eon, etc.).

A valid concern, but that would hardly be a certainty. Hobbyists with money for such hardware will typically still want to spend it to be on the "elite" hardware I would think. Without entry level hardware its hard to grow the userbase in any meaningful way.

Quote:

and with the current line of Sam440s, even the cost isn't that much any more.

Its all relative. To a casual nostalgia interested user $980 USD for a Sam460ex Lite system is not cheap. Neither is a Sam440ep Flex 667 1GB-bundle (board and RAM only) at $597 USD etc.

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EFIKA owner
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@Amigo1

Quote:

Amigo1 wrote: @fairlanefastback As far as I remember there were legal reasons they could not.

I never heard that myself, only heard the "we can't as we don't have hardware documentation".

Quote:

Why is there a need to stir up the same old soup each and every few months again?

PR brought it up because he is frustrated it would seem.

Quote:

if someone wants an aAmiga-like OS on x86 he can go AROS...

I totally agree on that. Unfortunately Amiga users often are slaves to the brand name it would seem.

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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @fairlanefastback Quote: MorphOS was made for Mac without issue. AROS was made for x86 without issue. WTF is the real reason MorphOS programmers can not do the same?

Ditching binary compatibility is a MAJOR ISSUE and enough itself to justify architecture choice. It's the thing why I can't get interested about AROS.

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@fairlanefastback

I have a strong suspicion that the production of Acube machines is on a knife-edge anyway at the moment. I'd guess that with Mac support, about 80% of Sam purchasers would have bought a Mac instead, as these are the low-end users who just want "an os4 machine". I'd say that adding Moana support would have very little effect on the X1000 buyers, and a moderate effect on the 460.

But what this means is that the entire low-end (i.e. the Sams) would be obliterated. Sure, we'd still have the X1000, but for many of us we still want low-end machines too, and we don't want to be limited to old Macintoshes. For instance, I develop the Catweasel drivers on my Sam at the moment - I couldn't do that on a Mac Mini (no expansion). We're in a very small market, even the slightest drop in demand can push the supplier over the edge.

Of course the figures I said there are completely guesswork, but I do think that if the Mac Mini were to come out, the demand would be so much less that the price would make it not worthwhile producing the Sams at all. We'd have a choice of the very very expensive or the completely unexpandable old Macintosh, and I personally value the middle ground of the Sam 440ep/flex and 460.

I can't agree that $600 is too much for a computer, though, I'm afraid. You can spend that on a PC very easily indeed, and of course the PC would be much more powerful, but I think that most hobbyists realise that a Sam isn't (and doesn't need to be) the same level of power as a PC.

This argument has been done over and over again, though. I won't make any more comments otherwise it'll just carry on ad nauseam.

@Spirantho

Quote:

I can't agree that $600 is too much for a computer, though, I'm afraid.

$600 does not buy you a computer. It buys you a board with RAM.

Quote:

I have a strong suspicion that the production of Acube machines is on a knife-edge anyway at the moment.

Right, so whats the path to increasing the user base then is the question. If an owner of a broken original AmigaOne is balking at Acube hardware in 2013 its not the best of signs. Granted PR is one individual but I wonder if the buying public for Acube hardware is pretty much saturated at this point.

In the end realistically PR is better off switching to MorphOS or AROS.

_________________
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EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

MorphOS was made for Mac without issue. WTF is the real reason Amiga OS 4.x programmers can not do the same?

Quote:

The only answer I ever saw was "it can't be done, we don't have hardware documentation"

Quote:

Last I heard though they stuck simply with "we can't even if we wanted to" which never made much sense in light of MorphOS working on the hardware.

Quote:

As far as I remember there were legal reasons they could not.

Quote:

I never heard that myself, only heard the "we can't as we don't have hardware documentation".

I believe I explained this many times.

(1)the talk about Hyperion is irrelevant since the project was 3rd party.
(2)both SAM and the Mac loader were presented simultaneously to Bill McEwen. I've linked to the text of the conversation before.
(3)Bill had rejected an earlier Mac port proposal from Adam
(4)Bill was horrified to hear of the new effort
(5)At Pianeta Amiga (same year as the proposal) an .mp3 file was played in error...featuring Bill discussing SAM and the proposed new h/w from Adam
(6)A transcript of that .mp3 exists on this website, and is the result of his decision to reject the Mac loader idea.

the link to the convo and additional references

#6

Last edited by number6 on 24-Feb-2013 at 04:09 PM.

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