I dropped the "serious" ball on Amiga very early in the nineties. So I can't say that I really know what is that os 3.X and 4.X can do hat 3.1 can't.

Could you help me bringing me up to speed? Given the efforts of the community in terms of software, hacks etc. - I am sure tat 3.1 can be modernized a lot and many of the system's limitations in its vanilla form can be overcome. TCP/USB stacks, memory limits, video modes etc. ...

So, what would the most complete 3.1 include?
And, furthermore, what would it STILL miss compared to 3.X and 4.X?

Thanks

a.

Last edited by resle on 26-May-2013 at 12:26 AM.

@resle

dont be kidding me, your reading these forums and dont know whats up? and then a "serious ball"? how can a ball be serious?

okay to answer the question, 3.x dont differ much imho, except for some user level convinient extentions, mostly third party. well, if you are accustomed to 3.9 (for whatever reason that versioning) then you might have your time to realize that things you take for granted are not available on 3.1. but then its not such a big deal, most of that is cosmetic even if meant really well.

now, the ways part. i cant say much for mos as ive never run it, but it is said that it is the most polished ng amiga alternative. which i trust, seing the system achivements and recognising the usual cool community attitude.
then there is os4, as if a continuation but then where it you expect continuity, there is lack of progress, and where legacy could be preserved, there is compatibility breech. sorry to say, my experience with it is not up to date, but i dont expect any much of it anymore, at least not that much, to attract me again.

and then there is aros. it might be incomplete in all kind of ways, even if it has evidently factual advantages in comparison with the previous both, but even then it is open. it runs on all kind of devices, including genuine amigas (!!!), where neither mos nor os4 have never ran on. it has an experimental touch (but what is amiga all about if not an adventure) rather than the boring philosophy of company and customer (either indoctrinated or disapointed, not seriously applicable here anyway). well then, all depends what you expect here as many details differ between architectures. on x86 there is (for a time being) a stable branch of aros v0, with a few available distributions. but this you have to ask others for. on genuine 68k hardware im personally interested in, there is the legacy of applications (theat by definition are supposed to work) plus the aros extended functionality and driver base atop of it. whether you take your amiga or a x86 hardware you happen to have, aros is potentially the less risky way to go in therms of investments, mos beig nte next, and os4 the third. and dont get me wrong, not that i have my doubts about aros, but they are nothing in comparison in considerations i have about others. at least it seems to me the most community oriented approach.


take your pick..

Last edited by wawa on 26-May-2013 at 01:25 AM.
Last edited by wawa on 26-May-2013 at 01:15 AM.
Last edited by wawa on 26-May-2013 at 01:15 AM.

@resle

* Composition real transparency hardware accelerated.
* AmigaInput new standard for USB game pads.
* Long filename support as part of DOS and filesystems.
* File notification, applications can monitor changes to files.
* 64bit filesystems support larger then 4Gbytes files.
* Lots of hidden enchantments to workbench, you only notice if know hot keys.
* PowerPC native.
* Has JIT compiler to run 680x0 software.
* There is a WarpEMU you can install, for WarpOS support.
* TrueType fonts.
* Newer Reaction
* Newer MUI
* Lots of drivers for network and sound cards.
* No patches and hacks to get 64bit partition support (Partitions larger then 4 Gbytes).
* Screen notifications
* Virtualized memory, less memory fragmentation.
* Swap support, even the OS can use disk if you run out memory, so you OS does not crash.
* Grim reaper, detects mis behaving programs and gives detailed crash rapports.
* USB2 support.
* Roadshow has GUI to configure it in AmigaOS4.
* Antialiasing of fonts, make fonts look smooth.
* Updated version of CrossDOS.

There are lots more that has been improved over OS3.x in AmigaOS4.x.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-May-2013 at 01:10 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-May-2013 at 01:56 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-May-2013 at 01:51 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-May-2013 at 01:47 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-May-2013 at 01:45 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-May-2013 at 01:44 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-May-2013 at 01:43 AM.

_________________
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@resle

Vanilla OS 3.1 is ... missing many features. Its better to start off with OS 3.9 Boing Ball 2 and even then you are not close to plain OS 4.0.
There were tries to modernize it, like e.g. Unofficial Boing Ball 3 but top is the AmiKit that exists also for Classic Amigas

On what will it miss ... well OS 4 progressed quite a lot from plain port that OS 4.0 used to be, to 4.1.6 with updates now. Some of key features you cant get on any kind of OS 3.x system (including all 3rd parties and hacks) are:

- PowerPC ported key components that make system way faster (except is when you run OS 3.x emulated on muscle PC) even on Classics with 603 and 604 cards. Its really beyond 060 experience, and way better to past solution when OS was 68k and just apps in PPC. Complete system is PPC ported including Picasso96, MUI
-No more chip RAM dependency, moved limit to 2GB FAST and 256MB video RAM
-New file system like JXFS enabling unlimited storage
-Virtual memory supported by OS
-Cairo and Python (maybe Python exists for 68k?)
-Composting effects (transparency, shadows ...)
-Ringio notification system
-AmiUpdate (automatic update system)
-RadeonHD driver and several drivers for PCI/PCI-E cards then simply dont exist for 68k PCI expansion boards mostly limited to Voodo, Virge and Sound Blaster
-MUI in between of 3.9 and 4.0, some way better then last 68k MUI and not yet as good as one in MorphOS
-DDC protocol
-USB 2.0 support
-Updated Datatypes and many libraries beyond 68k world
-Grim Reaper instead of Guru (no more crashing of whole OS)
-MiniGL 2 as simple 3D and not full OpenGL implementation
-Off course access to Amiga OS 4 software. Surely ,its not as rich software base, but surely Gimp, Firefox and some interesting apps, as well as OpenOffice port in progress will not exist for OS 3.0
-LiveCD you can boot from
- PDF reader and improved video player and other small but nice apps out of box. Some of such functionality hower can be gained in 68k OS via 3rd party apps

And yet more features to come with OS 4.2 such as OpenGL, multi core support and beyond 2GB RAM limit

That should be about most of differencies that can come to my mind, mostly unavail in 68k world. I might be wrong as I dont update PC AmigaKit suite anymore, and dont follow Aminet non PPC updates.

As explained above, many of features that could be made possible in oS 3 with hacks
are now included in OS (features, not hacks)

Last edited by vox on 26-May-2013 at 01:51 AM.
Last edited by vox on 26-May-2013 at 01:39 AM.

_________________
OS 3.x AROS and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionalism. Learn it harder way!
SinclairQL and WII U lover :D
YT http://www.youtube.com/user/rasvoja

@wawa

Quote:

now, the ways part. i cant say much for mos as ive never run it, but it is said that it is the most polished ng amiga alternative. which i trust, seing the system achivements and recognising the usual cool community attitude. then there is os4, as if a continuation but then where it you expect continuity, there is lack of progress, and where legacy could be preserved, there is compatibility breech. sorry to say, my experience with it is not up to date, but i dont expect any much of it anymore, at least not that much, to attract me again.

I do agree MorphOS is surely polished, thanks to longer development and no troubles with Amiga Inc as well as dedicated and skilled team. Surely OS4 is continuation of OS3 as direct port and there is clear adeventage of MorphOS starting from scratch.

AmigaOS 4 is very up to date compared to OS 3 (which I find fair to compare as same OS) but its not as powerful in features as Linux. It is surely way updated compared to vanilla OS 3.9. And yet its only 4.0 and 4.1, showing how humble we do OS naming (if it was Firefox would be AmigaOS 10 by now)

There is progress, but yet more old apps work on MorphOS, but as with MorphOS, some of the apps are avail only for AmigaOS 4. Sadly, as Amiga software companies mostly died during transition to AmigaOS 4 era its unlikely more software will be fixed a bit to be more system friendly and work on OS4.

List of what works
(seems that database does not work well at the moment, contacted Intuition base. They have explained its an SQL prob, and will be fixed this monday)

Last edited by vox on 26-May-2013 at 02:37 AM.
Last edited by vox on 26-May-2013 at 01:55 AM.
Last edited by vox on 26-May-2013 at 01:37 AM.

_________________
OS 3.x AROS and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionalism. Learn it harder way!
SinclairQL and WII U lover :D
YT http://www.youtube.com/user/rasvoja

@NutsAboutAmiga

* Composition real transparency hardware accelerated. >wow, a hell of improvement. is that os4 exclusive?

* AmigaInput new standard for USB game pads. >with that broken os4 usb stack? might be working better on genuine commo amiga hardware with poseidon.

* Long filename support as part of DOS and filesystems. > i thought we had that 4 years, but then these were patches, right? so whats os4 if not a collection of them?

* File notification, applications can monitor changes to files. >boring, what is that for?

* 64bit filesystems support larger then 4Gbytes files. >same as before above.

* Lots of hidden enchantments to workbench, you only notice if know hot keys. > never cared.

* PowerPC native. >if one has the money and dedication for the hardware it runs.

* Has JIT compiler to run 680x0 software. > but only for system conform software so far. mos and particularly aros with janus uyáe will eat it for breakfast. not to mention, if it ran on genuine hardware, it wouldnt need emulation.

* There is a WarpEMU you can install, for WarpOS support. >not working on most current os4 platforms. apparently mos scores better. wouldnt bother anyway.

* TrueType fonts. >we had that raliably working on 68k with afa_os for years, now with aros.

* Newer Reaction >almost abandoned even on os4, not even hyperions own timberwolf gets compiled against it. remind me what it was it is. must be a really rubbish gui system.

* Newer MUI > a little in comparison with os3.x. aros catches up. the newest mui comes from morpos.

* Lots of drivers for network and sound cards. >the number might impress one, if only they wernt usually available without dma support as it seems. may not count much on soundcards, but i/o will suffer.

* No patches and hacks to get 64bit partition support. have been mentioned earlier.
* Screen notifications >also, have been mentioned earlier.

* Virtualized memory, less memory fragmentation. > seems cause more problems with the memory than on 68k 3.x. none knowe what amount of mem is available on os4 even though some amount is assumed, people run out of mem where 500mb is apparently still free, stuff like that. nightmare if that was the case on my amiga.

* Swap support, even the OS can use disk if you run out memory, so you OS does not crash. > oh, despite you can have all the physical ram for addressable memory space on amiga, mos or os4, os4 users are encouraged to turn it off for a danger of instability, or so i ve heard?

* Grim repair, detects mis behaving programs and gives detailed crash rapports.
* USB2 support. >you mean "ripper"? sounds more appropriate. we have this kind of tools on amiga since ages, you know? ever heard of enforcer, muforce,and the like?

@vox

the points mostly not worth to mention..

-No more chip RAM dependency, moved limit to 2GB FAST and 256MB video RAM > what is so much dependent on chipram on amiga??? the os run on chipram-less hardware like draco in the genuine amiga era? aklsi i can have all that rtg video ram on my 68k 3.x amiga with mediator, the question is: for what?

-Cairo and Python (maybe Python exists for 68k?) >yeah it does last time i checked, cairo is compiled too as far as i know.

-Composting effects (transparency, shadows ...) >seems to be a major issue, yawn..

-RadeonHD driver and several drivers for PCI/PCI-E cards then simply dont exist for 68k PCI expansion boards mostly limited to Voodo, Virge and Sound Blaster >will take that seriously when some 3d acceleration becomes available fro those gfx cards, otherwise as good as my voodoo3on amiga i would say.

-MiniGL 2 as simple 3D and not full OpenGL implementation >alas not better than storm mesa on 68k. have tested both.


..

so, will there be anything i can assist with yet?

Thanks guys, very informative.

When I mentioned "dropping the serious ball" I mean using a real, classic amiga daily for my computing needs.

a.

@resle

thats what we ve all been dropping, even is some pretend otherwise.

@wawa

Well, WaWa, I have been tweaking OS 3.x as any user do. Even with great tools like enforcer used to be, it now looks way polished and functional out of box. Even it seems OS 3,.x could level up to it (by your judgement) there is no such thing avail, and never will be, as one package. It takes a lot of time and dedication to set up all the mentioned on OS 3.x sys and you might end up with a bit unstable sys.

Surely, many small components continued to develop, in fact OS continued to develop further and that should be good.

Quote:

Initial release July 23, 1985; 27 years ago Latest stable release 4.1 Update 6 / November 30, 2012; 5 months ago

Some things you will bash with sarcasm are great like True Type font support.

However, there are major areas that need update, like for example, Printer Drivers, and as you mention 3D working on RadeonHD

In my experience - seeing 1.3, 2.0, 3.0, 3.1,3.5,3.9,4.0 and 4.1, OS 4.0 and 4.1 were biggest steps forward in what OS offered out of box. Its really major transition like OS 1.0 to 2.0, or 2.0 to 3.0 was.

Its great 68k AmigaOS 3 had so many 3rd praty add ons expanding the OS, and it would be great if that tradition would continue. And here we dont use the same logic: features that could be expanded by using various packages from OS4 depot.

Last edited by vox on 26-May-2013 at 02:40 AM.

_________________
OS 3.x AROS and MOS supporter, fi di good, nothing fi di unprofessionalism. Learn it harder way!
SinclairQL and WII U lover :D
YT http://www.youtube.com/user/rasvoja

@vox

Quote:

Some things you will bash with sarcasm are great like True Type font support.

well, truly, a milestone-

@wawa

changed my mind before submitting, not worth the time to write anything against.

_________________
Cuida tus piedras gordas.

A1200/030 32Mb
A4000D
A1-X1000.

@resle

When i Updated from 3.1 to 3.5 two technical things i noticed immediatelly was that that all the icons loaded much faster than before when opening drawers. This was a big plus on drawers with loads of icons.

Another nice thing I noticed was that in 3.1 when you were dragging the window bar, it didnt update it to the new location until you released the mouse button (by other words released the slider bar to a new location). But in OS3.5, when you were moving the slider bar, window kept updating in real time making it much easier to find some specific file in case there are loads of files in same drawer again.


In addition to these technical stuff, there are lot of third party additions. Things like Amidock which serves the same purpose as Windows "Start" - menu, but just in Amiga way.

When i Swtiched from 3.5 to 3.9, I dont remember noticing much difference. My guess is that 3.9 has much more actual techical advances under the hood that 3.5 had. 3.5 Seemed like it was concentrating on using third party additions to make new official AmigaOS to get it quicker up to date.

@resle

there is plenty of activity on 68k right now, some examples

SDL for AGA:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64865
(one of the results will be a Netsurf AGA version

Amikit for real Amiga:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=67578

I work on a new version of my distribution based on AROS 68k and Magellan (waiting on final version of Magellan at the moment). AROS 68k not only runs on emulation but also real classic hardware and future FPGAs (like FPGA Arcade and the possible Tina project)

FPGA Arcade + 060 daughterboard
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=55885&page=179

Project Tina, a nextgen 68k system:
http://www.tinaproject.it/
and discussion: http://www.amigacoding.de/index.php

System 3 is thinking about publishing "Putty Squad" for 68k

that is only what comes to my mind shortly...

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote: * Composition real transparency hardware accelerated. >wow, a hell of improvement. is that os4 exclusive?

Yes

Quote:

* AmigaInput new standard for USB game pads. >with that broken os4 usb stack? might be working better on genuine commo amiga hardware with poseidon.

The usb stack is fine, it was the older hardware that had the well known problems.

Quote:

* Long filename support as part of DOS and filesystems. > i thought we had that 4 years, but then these were patches, right? so whats os4 if not a collection of them?

Technically if a 'patch' is written into the OS instead of replacing an existing routine it's no longer a 'patch' and far safer as they're done by those with access to the OS source code who know (hopefully) what side effects the 'patch' might have had and avoid them.

Quote:

* File notification, applications can monitor changes to files. >boring, what is that for?

You can use it to alert you if something changes your startup files or if you install an updated library then old one can be closed and the new one used saving a reboot. lots of other things, it's very useful.

Quote:

* Lots of hidden enchantments to workbench, you only notice if know hot keys. > never cared.

You should because they're not OS4 only. Most of them are from 3.1. eg. hold down ctrl-amiga-lmb to drag a window without having to use the titlebar.

Quote:

* Has JIT compiler to run 680x0 software. > but only for system conform software so far. mos and particularly aros with janus uyáe will eat it for breakfast. not to mention, if it ran on genuine hardware, it wouldnt need emulation.

All software should be system conforming. if you use 'unofficial' ways then expect trouble in the future. As for your genuine hardware remark, you shouldn't have mentioned although on genuine harware it would be a lot slower.

Quote:

* There is a WarpEMU you can install, for WarpOS support. >not working on most current os4 platforms. apparently mos scores better. wouldnt bother anyway.

Mostly for games so no big loss there.

Quote:

* TrueType fonts. >we had that raliably working on 68k with afa_os for years, now with aros.

yeah, about half the years it's been reliably working on OS4.

Quote:

* Newer Reaction >almost abandoned even on os4, not even hyperions own timberwolf gets compiled against it. remind me what it was it is. must be a really rubbish gui system.

Ok, here we go... timberwolf isn't hyperions, it's a persoan side project done in spare time. I uses it's own gui because it's a port with the gui already built in. Just to remind you reaction is what 3.5+ uses...

Quote:

* Newer MUI > a little in comparison with os3.x. aros catches up. the newest mui comes from morpos.

Actually an awful lot in comparison with OS3.x, just read the changelogs.

Quote:

* Lots of drivers for network and sound cards. >the number might impress one, if only they wernt usually available without dma support as it seems. may not count much on soundcards, but i/o will suffer.

I/O does not suffer with a network card, it would ln a classic without DMA as they're so slow to start with.

Quote:

* Screen notifications >also, have been mentioned earlier.[/quote[ No that was file notification... [quote]* Virtualized memory, less memory fragmentation. > seems cause more problems with the memory than on 68k 3.x. none knowe what amount of mem is available on os4 even though some amount is assumed, people run out of mem where 500mb is apparently still free, stuff like that. nightmare if that was the case on my amiga.

But it works, I use OS4.x for days without having to reboot. I remember when using 0x3.x on my A4000 (060, 128Mb) having to reboot 5 or 6 times a day due to memory fragmentation.

Quote:

* Swap support, even the OS can use disk if you run out memory, so you OS does not crash. > oh, despite you can have all the physical ram for addressable memory space on amiga, mos or os4, os4 users are encouraged to turn it off for a danger of instability, or so i ve heard?

I think you've been listening to the wrong people.

Quote:

* Grim repair, detects mis behaving programs and gives detailed crash rapports. * USB2 support. >you mean "ripper"? sounds more appropriate. we have this kind of tools on amiga since ages, you know? ever heard of enforcer, muforce,and the like?

Nope, he meant 'Grim Reaper' which is a totally different thing to enforcer, muforce etc. You must have seen the crashlogs some people post here. they're generate by Grim Reaper.

_________________
OS4 Rocks
X1000 beta tester, Sam440 Flex (733)

Visit the Official OS4 Support Site for more help.

It may be that your sole purpose is to serve as a warning to others.

@wawa

Quote:

* Grim repair, detects mis behaving programs and gives detailed crash rapports. we have this kind of tools on amiga since ages, you know? ever heard of enforcer, muforce,and the like?

I think you mean Sushi or Sashimi here. They are (somewhat primitive) graphical frontends to Enforcer.

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@resle

Well, you haven't asked what 3.x is in comparison to MorphOS, but give an imression anyway. OS3.x can be tweaked pretty far, but MorphOS is a complete package going quite further:

MorphOS is fully retagetable, skinable and comes with included decent net services (netstack, Odyssey web browser, ftp client, SSH console).
MUI 4.x - fast and powerful - fully integrated and licensed into the system.
Ambient is far more progressed than Workbench (once you're used to Ambient Workbench feels pretty limited).
More modern filesystems.
Good gfx hardware support (very fast 3D system).
Much modern software (not quick'n'dirty ports, but well polished softwares).
A way more powerful shell (MUI based, auto completition, tabs).
powerful, yet easy to use CD/DVD burning software included (Jalapeno)
Comaptible pdf viewer (VPDF)
Kryptos - drive encryption software
Preferences are better organized
Usb stack Poseidon well integrated into the system
Helios Firewire stack (3rd party)
Private system files (SYS:MorphOS/) are separated from user files , simpe idea, but makes life easy.
DDC control
Taskmanager, debug and crash log tool
Python (3rd party)

What's lacking against 68k OS 3.x:
Full ARexx implementation, but that can be downloaded from Aminet and Lua will fill that gap in future. It's not an issue.
Poseindon usb stack for MorphOS doesn't support isochronous transfers, Poseidon for 68k does though...

--

I have used 3.x system on real hardwrae and on WinUAE quite a lot and many years. WinUAE was a great step forward when some computing power was needed. But once MorphOS got more matured (say since about V1.4.x) I retired these systems was never looking back. It is so much more complete and polished. 68k feels retro for me today, though I still value and like it.

http://via.i-networx.de/wim.htm gives a brief introduction, too.

Last edited by Zylesea on 26-May-2013 at 12:01 PM.
Last edited by Zylesea on 26-May-2013 at 11:57 AM.

_________________
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MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

@all
Don`t listen to wawa . He is a troll master. He don`t know nothing.He is a conspiracy theorist

_________________
Amiga600/Vampire2/PrismaMegaMix

@Severin

Quote:

Severin wrote: @wawa Quote: wawa wrote: * Composition real transparency hardware accelerated. >wow, a hell of improvement. is that os4 exclusive? Yes

The "yes" is okay for "hell of an improvement" but not for "exclusive". MorphOS has hardware accelaration since V2.0 (was called Layers 3D then, now enhanced display).
It's nice, but actually not a killer feature though.

_________________
My programs: via.bckrs.de
MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

@tommysammy

"He don`t know nothing.He is a conspiracy theorist"

what do you mean with this?