@mpiva

Excellent point. No reason to shut down apps, as long as they've saved anything that NEEDS saving.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@Wol

This is getting silly. People are voting about 3 or 4 different concepts in a single thread.

@ssollie

Maybe you should have tried a LITTLE harder at defining exactly what you want to implement before asking for a yes/no answer?

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

Quote:

@ssollie Maybe you should have tried a LITTLE harder at defining exactly what you want to implement before asking for a yes/no answer?

This whole thing came up in the beta irc channel, we were asking about adding a "simple" system shutdown script to the next update, & I do mean simple. Sometimes, other ideas can come up, so never hurts to leave the subject open. The need to hold the power button on the X1000 & the Peg started this whole thing.


@all

For those that think s/w shutdown, start Scout, tasks button & see what a can of worms that would be.
But hey, lets fix s/w shutdown bugs for the next 10 plus years...

ssolie is off on a trip to a place with no net access for a few days.

_________________
Hate tends to make you look stupid...

@sundown

Quote:

The need to hold the power button on the X1000 & the Peg started this whole thing.

I was not aware of this issue until this thread was started. I can see why people want a software shutdown. Let's go for it but please make it simple to use.

---
redfox

@thread

If all apps know its own 'state' while running, compared to when started - they know if and when a save is required.

Just changing a few settings would flag a state change and autosave if not already done so.

But if someone opened a text editor and left it open it should be no state change, even if types something in then deleted text to become blank result state unchanged.

Intelligent state save in apps should be looked into.

Now how complicated is state saving while writing to disk, does not matter what it is.

App need
task list (operation to do)
data involved
current progress

Any app that has no state change can be killed immediately, or if URGENT shutdown - last known app state change.

a web client could save URL list of tabs open - rather than saving 20 pages.

how did Amiga A do it ?

_________________

@redfox

Quote:

Let's go for it but please make it simple to use.

Not sure the micro would support shutdown s/w, I've never had any issues with mine since I stopped using FFS. In my opinion, anything complicated would need to wait utill after os4.2 becomes public & stable.

_________________
Hate tends to make you look stupid...

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: @sugar RAM:T/

Yes, good idea! That's where I store all my important data too prior to switching off the Amiga.
I hope the next thing Hyperion is implementing, will be some kind of storage which remains persistent after turning off the computer.. Because that's the biggest drawback using the Amiga, every time I switch it off all my data is gone..

@ssolie

Yes, as long as the old way works too...

_________________
AmigaOS 4.1 FEu2 on Sam440ep-flex 800MHz 1GB RAM
C128, A500+, A1200, A1200/40, AmigaForever 2008+09+16, 5 x86/x64 boxes
Still waiting (or dreaming) for the Amiga revolution...
m4rko.com/AMIGA

@ssolie

Quote:

ssolie wrote: Do you think it is a good idea to add a software shutdown option to AmigaOS? The option would only apply to the hardware platforms which support it.

What should that be good for?

I always appreciated that I can simply switch my Miggy off - no shutdown precedure required.

Why should that be changed now - is full memory protection already implemented, that might require such things?

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@Dandy

Quote:

Dandy wrote: @ssolie What should that be good for? I always appreciated that I can simply switch my Miggy off - no shutdown precedure required. Why should that be changed now - is full memory protection already implemented, that might require such things?

Since it appears that you did not bother to read the rest of the posts in this thread, I will remind you that at least a couple of OS4.x computer models require the user to hold down the On/Off switch button for approx. 4 seconds, before the computer will shut down. For these computers, the users would like to have a simple software shut-down process that would only require a quick push of the On/Off button with no waiting and holding down the On/Off button.

I am also guilty sometimes, of not reading all the posts in a thread, before I reply to a message. Or were you just being sarcastic with your reply? Sarcasm is sometimes hard to understand when done in writing, instead of in person where you can read a person's body language as well as their facial expressions.

_________________
Amiga! The computer that inspired so many, to accomplish so much, but has ended up in the hands of . . . . . . . . . .

@Dandy

"What should that be good for?"

If you have unsaved work on some application SW shutdown could allow that application to save (quick save to backup location) it's data before shutdown (or optionally, inform you about it).
it would let file system to finish disk I/O before poweroff to reduce loss of data.
If you are using disc cache, this would let the cache to written to disk before poweroff.
If you are using ATX PSU, this could enable faster shutdown than holding down the power button for several seconds.
You could set the system to remember what you were doing before shutdown/reboot and you could then let OS to restore your desktop with applications + data just the way you had them before you powered off. (you could continue reading the web page you were on, continue writing your document/code where your cursor was left previously).

etc. etc. SW shutdown is modern thing that has not yet been implemented properly in the mainstream. (MOS has very fast and simple SW shutdown, it's a start)

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

Quote:

asymetrix wrote: Any app that has no state change can be killed immediately

Why bother? Why tell the system to "kill" an app when there's been no state change? Does a powered down system really need GUI elements erased, memory deallocated, and resources freed up first?

Before I turn off my Amiga, I flip through my open programs and make sure everything's saved and there's no disk activity, but I NEVER bother to actually QUIT those programs. That would be silly, and frankly, would just be a waste of my time.

@mpiva

unfortunately some programs write some date to disk when you select "quit".
I'm not in front of my muggy right now, but if memory serves well, PageStrea, ArtEffect and TurboCalc update their list of "last used documents". And I remember YAM did something too when being quit.

@ssolie

Yes, it will be needed even more in the future since many invisible process will run in the background.

_________________
ikir

@sugar

Quote:

sugar wrote: @mpiva unfortunately some programs write some date to disk when you select "quit".

All the more reason NOT to select "quit" before powering down. I'd be really annoyed it I told a program to quit, had the GUI disappear and think the program was done doing its thing only to discover that it was still executing code in the background and decided to write some log file to disk just as my finger presses the power button.

@ssolie

Quote:

Do you think it is a good idea to add a software shutdown option to AmigaOS? The option would only apply to the hardware platforms which support it.

Yes. It can be awkward having to bend or crawl under the desk more than necessary.

It should of course have the option to be instant (or as instant as the reset handlers allow, since I assume they will be run as part or this software shutdown).

The screenshot of some app that had a 10 second delay and no "Instant off" button defeats the purpose. Simple Yes/No buttons would be fine.

_________________
- Don't get fooled by my avatar, I'm not like that (anymore, mostly... maybe only sometimes)
> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

@mpiva

Quote:

All the more reason NOT to select "quit" before powering down. I'd be really annoyed it I told a program to quit, had the GUI disappear and think the program was done doing its thing only to discover that it was still executing code in the background and decided to write some log file to disk just as my finger presses the power button.

Many programs save configuration on exit. MUI programs can be configured to do this. However, with any file system in the world except FFS this is no problem. But more to the point: Yes, there is, or should be, no reason to having to quit an app before power down.

_________________
- Don't get fooled by my avatar, I'm not like that (anymore, mostly... maybe only sometimes)
> Amiga Classic and OS4 developer for OnyxSoft.

@amigadave

Quote:

amigadave wrote: @Dandy Quote: Dandy wrote: @ssolie What should that be good for? I always appreciated that I can simply switch my Miggy off - no shutdown precedure required. Why should that be changed now - is full memory protection already implemented, that might require such things? Since it appears that you did not bother to read the rest of the posts in this thread,

I have to admit that you got me - I'm guilty.
But to my defense - you can't read an entire 5-pages thread just to answer one post (the first postof the thread), when you're in a hurry.

Quote:

amigadave wrote: I will remind you that at least a couple of OS4.x computer models require the user to hold down the On/Off switch button for approx. 4 seconds, before the computer will shut down. For these computers, the users would like to have a simple software shut-down process that would only require a quick push of the On/Off button with no waiting and holding down the On/Off button.

Thanks for mentioning this - I didn't know that.
But wouldn't it be easier to shortcut the connectors on the mobo with a jumper and to connect the switch directly to the power supply line, than to write a shutdown app and to implement it in the OS? At least that's the way it works in my old A4kPPC...
(If the switch isn't suited for the net power 240 V, one could replace it with a switch that can operate the 240 V ...)

Quote:

amigadave wrote: I am also guilty sometimes, of not reading all the posts in a thread, before I reply to a message. Or were you just being sarcastic with your reply? Sarcasm is sometimes hard to understand when done in writing, instead of in person where you can read a person's body language as well as their facial expressions.

Nah - no sarcasm involved this time.
Furthermore I learned in the meantime that it is better to indicate sarcasm with [sarcasm]
...
[/sarcasm]

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

@ssolie

I don't know if it's been mentioned in this thread before (haven't waded through it), but software sleep/shutdown is almost a requirement for a laptop/netbook.

_________________
X5000 / microA1(OS4.1 FE U2) / CodeBench / Imagine / Blender
Lightwave 2019 / Microsoft Visual C++

@ amigadave & KimmoK:

Please excuse my late reply, but I was on a treament at a health resort after an heart attack with no internet access.

Quote:

amigadave wrote: Since it appears that you did not bother to read the rest of the posts in this thread, I will remind you that at least a couple of OS4.x computer models require the user to hold down the On/Off switch button for approx. 4 seconds, before the computer will shut down. For these computers, the users would like to have a simple software shut-down process that would only require a quick push of the On/Off button with no waiting and holding down the On/Off button.

Quote:

KimmoK wrote: If you are using ATX PSU, this could enable faster shutdown than holding down the power button for several seconds.

I bet it won't beat the shutdown time I get with this:





Quote:

amigadave wrote: I am also guilty sometimes, of not reading all the posts in a thread, before I reply to a message. Or were you just being sarcastic with your reply? Sarcasm is sometimes hard to understand when done in writing, instead of in person where you can read a person's body language as well as their facial expressions.

Nah - I was just in a hurry. Mostly I read/reply here from work and so it can happen that I don't have the time to read 5 pages of postings before replying to the first one.

Quote:

KimmoK wrote: If you have unsaved work on some application SW shutdown could allow that application to save (quick save to backup location) it's data before shutdown (or optionally, inform you about it). it would let file system to finish disk I/O before poweroff to reduce loss of data. If you are using disc cache, this would let the cache to written to disk before poweroff. ... You could set the system to remember what you were doing before shutdown/reboot and you could then let OS to restore your desktop with applications + data just the way you had them before you powered off. (you could continue reading the web page you were on, continue writing your document/code where your cursor was left previously). etc. etc. SW shutdown is modern thing that has not yet been implemented properly in the mainstream. (MOS has very fast and simple SW shutdown, it's a start)

On the one hand I have to agree with you that having the chance of saving unsaved work is a good thing.
But on the other hand I have managed it somehow up to now to keep my mind together and save my work automatically before switching off, although that might change with proceeding senescence. Never lost data/work because of that - except perhaps in the first days when I had my first Miggy back in 1989...
But the results of what I did back then weren't worth storing anyway (first experiments)...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)