Hello.

I have noticed that when reading a long thread or making a reply that it is annoying if I want to go home or to the next page, because I have to scroll all the way to the top. When it seems to me that the header and sidebar could be sectioned off.

So I am wondering why frames are not used for this?

So, nobody really knows?

@Hypex

Quote:

I have noticed that when reading a long thread or making a reply that it is annoying if I want to go home or to the next page, because I have to scroll all the way to the top. When it seems to me that the header and sidebar could be sectioned off. So I am wondering why frames are not used for this?

I don't really know, but I expect it is something to do with frames support, or lack of, in AmigaOS browsers.

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@Swoop

Frames are supported on all Amiga browsers. Frames, however, are also a thing of the past. They do not look or function very well and are generally not used anymore.

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@Zardoz

Not used ? I use it. So its used :)

@Zardoz

I use them too and they look quite nice if you do it properly.

painter

@Hypex

Quote:

So I am wondering why frames are not used for this?

Ooooh, frames are spawn of the They're evil I tell ya, evil! Frames should be avoided at all costs IMHO.

As for support in Amiga browsers, normal frames are supported but the iframe type isn't.

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@Swoop

I was waiting for a comment like that, however, as stated we've had frames for years. You may remember when we had tables, but not frames, but we are past that now.

@Zardoz

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Frames are supported on all Amiga browsers. Frames, however, are also a thing of the past. They do not look or function very well and are generally not used anymore.

Well, let me tell you, a browser that doesn't support CSS is a thing of the past, and this is exactly the type of browsers AW has to support to be an Amiga site. A frame with a scroll bar isn't very good if it doesn't need it, but I don't know what else could be used. what other method could be employed so that AW has a static header, a sidebar menu, and the the scrolling content moving with the main window scroller?

AFAIK frames are the closest to having an easy to navigate site. Even using AW on my Mac is just as hard.

@Hypex

For some reason a lot of people who write open-source software like Xoops (which I believe is the engine used for this and some other Amiga sites) have gone down the route of making everything one large table (as this site is). I know frames are avoided for some reason, I don't understand the reason.. I believe it was due to lack of support when they first came out...

Most sites who do pages as one long page, will include links to the top of the page... which is, in my opinion, messier due to the way your history gets cluttered up.

tiffers

@Hypex

frames used correctly can be where nice, for example for quick link menu on left or the right side, but it where annoying to have frames on top of the page (static header), because decreases the visual area for text and pictures on the main page, on the other hand if you have frames on the right or left side, but not on the top, then the page looks crazy.

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@Hypex

Frames are a "wrong" step in net develoment. You never really have full control on how they appear on differing screen resolutions and browser layouts (My Opera browser has bookmark panels hanging off the right hand side of the screen since it makes more sense when you are right handed - this makes frames that have navigation panels on the left seem wrong to the eye)

Not to mention the problems with refeshing the page, bookmarking individual threads, resizing windows or text (if you have poor eyesight) and a whole heap more annoying problems that thankfully I'm no longer reminded of on a daily basis since nearly every decent site has abandoned them now.

Javascript and CSS have superceeded frames in every way possible. Frames are dead end. A step back in human development. However much hastle it is to scroll your page now, navigation would be a whole lot worse with frames.

No frames, no cry.

Last edited by SpaceDruid on 26-Apr-2008 at 08:23 AM.

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@tiffers

I think frames where use in the past because web designers needed static content on there pages, like links and headings and styles, this days web designers use server scripts to generate web content, like ASP or PHP, so static content can be easily generated.

but I think you find frames on peoples home pages, not every free web sever provider give you access to ASP and PHP, this when you have the option of CSS or Frames. or maybe Java script generated web pages, or maybe html include linkes.

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@SpaceDruid

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panels hanging off the right hand side of the screen since it makes more sense when you are right handed

You control your mice whit your right hand, if panel is on the right or left side of the screen, I think more to do whit what your use too do.

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Java-script and CSS have superceeded frames in every way possible.

I think frames do require Java-scripts to be useful too.

CSS pages are slow compared to Frames and old style HTML code, CSS is not where usable on slow devices or slow web browsers like OWB.

If a page has 2 frames on th page then thats ok, if there is 3 or more the web pages get hard to navigate, best looking web pages are static pages whit out ugly scrollbars.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 26-Apr-2008 at 10:52 AM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

CSS pages are slow compared to Frames and old style HTML code, CSS is not where usable on slow devices or slow web browsers like OWB.

Huh? CSS pages are only slow on crap browsers, they are not slow on the WebKit based Nokias, they are not slow on the iPhone and they are not slow on Sputnik betas running on tiny underpowered things.

Huge nested tables are slower to process.

Last edited by Zardoz on 26-Apr-2008 at 12:56 PM.
Last edited by Zardoz on 26-Apr-2008 at 12:54 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

frames used correctly can be where nice, for example for quick link menu on left or the right side, but it where annoying to have frames on top of the page (static header), because decreases the visual area for text and pictures on the main page, on the other hand if you have frames on the right or left side, but not on the top, then the page looks crazy.

I can se your point with frames taking up space. However on AW there is already a bar to the left with links and such. But it does take up more lines than a screen and so having it's own scrolly could be annoying. Of course these days we should have context sensitive mouse wheel buttons, as I have on this Mac most of the time.

But I am thinking that a quick link toolbar at the top of the AW pages would be very handy. Taking up one line but being able to move between pages, threads and other links.

What I discovered recently on My Mac was the way Safari handles "finds." Is it absolutely brilliant.
When a search is made instead of a window opening up and blocking the text behind, a little toolbar appears above the web page. You then type in what is needed, and no need to press return. (A recent Mac thing, like using an old phone, where you didn't need to press the "return" button to start it.) It does it's search and then highlights each one on the page, going to each if you desire. It also looks really neat. It makes a traditional search on Wordworth look cumbersome by comparison!

@SpaceDruid

Quote:

Frames are a "wrong" step in net develoment. You never really have full control on how they appear on differing screen resolutions and browser layouts (My Opera browser has bookmark panels hanging off the right hand side of the screen since it makes more sense when you are right handed - this makes frames that have navigation panels on the left seem wrong to the eye)

I could see your point there. What I'd like to see in modern developments is a sliding menu bar at the far right or left of a screen. I once saw one in an Amiga golf game. It was ahead of it's time. Games allowed programmers the freedom to program their own GUI's like that, without needing to use the resources or limitations offered by the OS.

I wonder if MacOS10.5 does that? Not sure if Vista does, I assume it should if it's the latest in GUI technology. XP certainly wasn't anything to shout about. All it does is complain when I want to QUOTE someone. And misses out on a spell checker.

Unfortunately, AmigaOS will need a lot more work before any of the features I just mentioned will be available as standard. And in a uniform way across the whole system.

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Not to mention the problems with refeshing the page, bookmarking individual threads, resizing windows or text (if you have poor eyesight) and a whole heap more annoying problems that thankfully I'm no longer reminded of on a daily basis since nearly every decent site has abandoned them now.

That's what a resizable GUI is for! The GUI is meant to be be able to reorganize that for you since the browser employs the OS to render the GUI

The only problem I had was the way that the web browser had it's own scroll bar in the window and a one for each frame. But that was an Amiga problem, possibly MUI related. And for some small frames a scroller wasn't needed. It wasn't uniform. Some sites didn't need two scroll bars! The browser should have adapted to that.

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Javascript and CSS have superceeded frames in every way possible. Frames are dead end. A step back in human development. However much hastle it is to scroll your page now, navigation would be a whole lot worse with frames.

Which is all fine and good but we don't have a fully working CSS browser for Amiga. So as good as CSS is, it is in practical terms useless for us! It may improve AW on my Mac, but it would wreck it for IBrowse. So we must rely on something else. Even tables don't look right in the ole IB, after seeing them on my Mac. They have lines.