@treblesix
This part says it all:

Quote:

It's a threshold thing. If the path-independent means to getting AmigaOS on my desktop is $100 rather than $1000, more will sign up. Likely, many more, because the threshold of rejection is a log scale. You might find, for every 100 people willing to buy a New Amiga, there are 1000 or 10,000 willing to buy the software to run this environment on their PC. This is only made more obvious by the fact that none of the hardware is even as good as the cheap PC stuff. If it was better than PC, you'd have a big geek attractor there, even if they didn't know Amiga. Today, it's a big geek repellant, they understand all the details, and don't want to be made fool of.

No brainer, except to those stuck on PPC. This is assuming the desktop market is a target. While PPC _may_ still have some validity in other than desktop markets, if OS4 remains tied to non commodity hardware, remember the bolded quotes when it comes to sales numbers.

The only ways out of that are to produce an 'appliance' that happens to run AOS (like an ACK media box that does something interesting other systems don't do, and runs OS4?), drop the price of entry significantly (ie, on par with Dell low-end specials), or run on commodity, available hardware, people may already have (iow, Apple).

Even doing the above limits the growth potential of the OS, but does increase it from the current standpoint. At this point, from a desktop standpoint and not knowing of any 'mega-deals' Hyperion may have, PPC, but moreso 'special' PPC hardware, was the worst move possible. If Apple had stayed in the PPC market, and OS4 was indeed ported to Mac hardware, that would open possiiblities we don't have, nor will we, in the foreseeable future, as OS4 could effectively be sold as an off the shelf 'application.'

Note this _could_ also be done with the PS3 or XBox 360, which could be a great move if it happened- play off the Amiga history and nostalgia, sell OS4 with SDK and some OS4 software, with a slick workbench setup, and a menu frontend for UAE running 'Amiga Classics' games on one DVD. Actually, make the 'Amiga Classics' the frontend.

This would be the _modern_ equivalent of the A500 and A1k again. Give them some games and nostalgia, and many will simply 'play the games.' Ok, fine...but some will dig deeper and find a well documented SDK, updated RKRMs, running on a modern platform, allowing the option of a HD install in the event they want to turn their PS3/XBox into 'a real Amiga running OS4.' That alone, IMO, has the option of even potentially putting the name 'Amiga' in front of hundreds of thousands (or more) of people again.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

I believe Amiga will remain hobbyist computer wathever
platform there is so....bring it to x86 and save me
800 bucks.

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

I think Dave is 100% right here. And if OS4 or morphOS were ported to x86 I would pay 100$ for eather of them. But I also think that as long as we all want to run amigaOS there allways will be a way.
Say for example, OS4 is discontinued by hyperion and MOS going noware, the community will allways develop them further. And as long as we know how to make the AmigaOS calls the applications will develop. There will be more and more opensource out there. After all, the amiga community is the one thing about amiga that never dissapointed me.
And whatever happens with OS4 and MOS we can allways join up again as AROS becomes more complete, run it on whatever piece of hardware we want to. And we can take our know-how, sourcecode, artwork and community with us.
Nothing will be wasted so just keep on with what you are doing and allways know there will be a way as long as you want to.
And appreciate each-other, whether MOS, AOS, AROS, Amithlon, UAE because we´re all the same people infected by some insanity back in the 80-90s.

And can anybody claim that they have more beutiful desktops then OS4/MOS users? Its simply a peace of art!!!!

@treblesix

This is old quote. He said this maybe two or three years ago.

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@gdanko

Two keys here he did mention in a sort of round about way:

Key one is cheap hardware. I think this is what needs to happen in an under $199 or less. Doesn't matter what it is, just so long as it runs OS4.

Key two is cool hardware. Another version running on a really interesting processor like the Cell or something similar. I talked to a Linux geek/ex Amigan just the other day. He didn't think the cell would even be out in anything anytime soon. If Amiga showed up on something like this it would be a geek attractor much like he mentioned.

Something I think he perhaps overlooked was the scaleablity factor. PowerPC has a wide range of devices. Not just desktops. This is a huge area and could be a good money maker although a bit on the risky side.

@treblesix

I seem to agree with Dave Haynie, looking at the current lack of AmigaOne hardware.

I have no idea how much more work it would have been to make OS4 on X86, but the "excuse" that it would be imposibble to support all the diffrent bioses, gfx cards etc. is lame IMHO as there's no need to.
It's the same situation as we have now, only AmigaOne have been supported even though people have asked for support for other PPC platforms.

Hook up with a x86 board manufacturer and make AOS available for desktop and one notebook, that would be the supported platform. If it ran on anything else it could be considered a bonus.
My bet is that it would still outsell the current A1 big time as complete systems would be MUCH MUCH cheaper.

Right now it's just a constant wait on underpowered overpriced hardware.

Don't get me wrong, I love my AmigaOne XE-G4 andoffcourse also OS4, but the price/performance ratio is pathetic. Also having to constantly worry about your A1's health is annoying, how long time will I have to be without an OS4 compatible computer if it dies?

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OS 4 should have been ported to X86 a long time ago - I mean look at the situation now...

@Mikey_C

Quote:

It proves nothing and adds nothing to the debate. because the Debate is over and done with

yup, nothing left but the funeral

Loki

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Amiga - Resistance used to be Futile!

@Loki1

http://www.apple.com/ - check out the Intel powerbook pro.... It's amigas tombstone.

Hi All,


Far be it for me to question a Legend, but, endianess and therefore total lack of backward compatability? Or, at least, an extreme penalty, CPU cycles wise?

The x86 CPU is supposed to be getting way too complicated for it's own good, too, right?

I think that increases in the speed of the RISC PPC CPUs will continue, now that the sales will go through the roof, thanks to xbukz 360 and PS3 and Nintendo's Revolution... The PS2 sold over 100 million units, right?


Juat have to wait for someone to see this for what it is, truely a cash cow, in the long run!!!!!


We are on THIS ROAD...... well... off we go.

Quote:

Bobsonsirjonny wrote: @Loki1 http://www.apple.com/ - check out the Intel powerbook pro.... It's amigas tombstone.

Hi Bobsonsirjonny,

Some things just never change. Look at those prices!!!!!

They'll never go above 5% like that.

yeah lets go x86, its a perfect technology...

_________________
Sven Harvey
Amiga Mart in Micro Mart, Geekology 4M@, and other places
A1000, A2000, A1500 A500, CDTV, A500+, A600, A4000, A1200, CD32, AT A1200HD, A1-XE

@treblesix

I Agree...
If AmigaOS will run on standard machines it will be really cheap...
OK, support so many HW will be difficult, but we can simply support standard chips, simply with standard command rather than optimised drivers...
AROS works, no?
I hope to see AmigaOS on that hw some day (maybe 5.0?)
Think about an AmigaOS running on nice notebook

But...

For now...

I hope to see AmigaOS4 update4 SOOOONNN!!!

Tuxedo.

_________________
Simone"Tuxedo"Monsignori, Perugia, ITALY.

@Atheist

Thanks for poniting that out It has always been my opinion that Apple is shooting its self in the foot by moving to X86. Why? Lets face it the Mac is a fashion statement it is for the guy and Gal that wants to say look how stylish my Mac is compared to your PC even thought your PC has the same software and more running at twice the speed. Why would I bother with a MacBook Pro when I can pick up a Dell Inspirion for about 1200.00 loaded with goodies and save about $800.00.

Apple has to do some very clever marketing if it wants to compete with the LIkes OF DELL, HP, Levon(IBM), Sony and Toshiba. It is a crowed intel market place to walked into and I can't see them coming out alive. Lets face it the only thing that has kept this company aflot is its IPOD!!

It would not suprise me if they ditch/sell their whole PC market division to another chinese (like IBM) maker to concentrate on portable devices like the IPOD.

Last edited by Hitback on 10-Jan-2006 at 07:30 PM.

@treblesix

* the x86 is way more common it makes it easier to pirate the OS whit out paying for it

* Other systems like BeOS, Zeta and QNX is not big success on x86 just by running on the x86 at end of the day; what make an os depends on what programs you can use, not only boot speed, amigaos covers a minimum thanks to it's legacy support.

* The AROS projects shows what AMIGOS4 will look like on the x86 more or less, no direct support, no applications = no users.

* Amitalon + AmigaOSXL has proven that user base in not interested in yet an other AmigaOS emulated on top of some thing else.

* No legacy support, no die hard classic fans

* It's way better for Hyperion to spend there time expanding what AmigaOS can do then port it over to yet a different type of CPU that, has little in common whit the 680x0 or PowerUP CPU cards used.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jan-2006 at 08:05 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jan-2006 at 08:02 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Jan-2006 at 08:01 PM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

I really do not think that the Amiga needs to be on x86 just to be cheap. I think there are other ways. I sort of get the feeling that most that are pro x86 think that if OS4 were ported they could use their own PC to run it. Then when they ran into problems it didn't work then there would be lots of noise about it doesn't work. It's no good. Etc...

There should be two models of Amiga hardware. One a stripped down board with only functional components and the cheapest/most available PowerPC on it. Price it under $200 and thats a sellable machine.

The other Amiga hardware should be a bells and whistles. Highest performance Power PC if it costs 4,000 to put together so be it.

That way when you talk to the rest of the tech world, when questions about price occure the first option is the one that is mentioned. When you talk performance the second model is mentioned. Really the second option model would be sold in fewer numbers, but it's there mainly for bragging rights. The cheaper model is out there to get the numbers up and for those who can not buy the top of the line can get into it.

If C= didn't go belly up, it's course would have had to have been similar to stay alive. Custom chips on the board were a good solution for the older processors, but for the newer more powerful processors it no longer makes sense.

If x86 was the answer, then why is it that AROS is not more popular?

I agree that we can not just target the ex-Amigans for a potential user base. I believe the state we are in right now is to get ex-Amigans back to help with the work that needs to be done on some of the more critticle applications that need to be developed.

As far as the remarks about the current owners of Amiga don't know business. All I have to say is that you not only have to know business, but you have to know how to be a success at it. The old C= didn't do this for Amiga, so why should we listen to someone who failed, I would rather take the advice of someone who was a success. I remember when you could walk into Toys R' Us and buy programs for the C=64. When they came out with the Amiga, they didn't want to market it as a games machine so they did not sell it at Toys R' Us. From there they didn't advertise it, didn't properly market it and about the only thing they did right was to buy it. How ever they made that right decision I do not know.

Last edited by nzv58l on 10-Jan-2006 at 08:15 PM.

@nzv58l
Quote:

If x86 was the answer, then why is it that AROS is not more popular?

Simply because AROS isn't usable as main system. Yet.

But let's go the other way around: why would you not use AROS, if you had an available x86 board and if it were usable as main system, providing you with all the functionalities you need?

_________________
“It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary
system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

Quote:

nzv58l wrote: As far as the remarks about the current owners of Amiga don't know business. All I have to say is that you not only have to know business, but you have to know how to be a success at it. The old C= didn't do this for Amiga, so why should we listen to someone who failed, I would rather take the advice of someone who was a success. I remember when you could walk into Toys R' Us and buy programs for the C=64. When they came out with the Amiga, they didn't want to market it as a games machine so they did not sell it at Toys R' Us. From there they didn't advertise it, didn't properly market it and about the only thing they did right was to buy it. How ever they made that right decision I do not know.

Hi nzv58l,


There are many nails in Amiga's coffin, but the stake came from motoscum.

Even APPLE wasn't enough of a consumer for them to continue with faster and higher CPU generations past 68060 75 MHz.

@Bobsonsirjonny

There is AROS if you want AmigaOS on x86.

I think we can't have cheap x86 hardware for AmigaOS because it's so hard to support everything ("hey, why AmigaOS doesn't run on *my* pc system?!1!?") and if you pick custom design, you are back to square 1, with expensive custom hardware.

So with x86, I see 2 options:

a) open sourced OS, and lots enthuastic developers
b) closed source OS, and lots of money to pay for the coders

Not very realistic options, either of them, or?

@NutsAboutAmiga

* the x86 is way more common it makes it easier to pirate the OS whit out paying for it

Windows is pirated by the millions. Apple will only sell their OS with their hardware, so not much difference from Amiga. So it could be cracked and made to run on non Apple Hardware.. So what.

MS isn't making much money on Windows from the consumer market, most comes from business and MS Office licenses and support..

Point is you make the money from sales/licensing to a business not us.

* The AROS projects shows what AMIGOS4 will look like on the x86 more or less, no direct support, no applications = no users.

It does ? Their forums were rather active last time I looked. Mind, that has been a few months.

* Amitalon + AmigaOSXL has proven that user base in not interested in yet an other AmigaOS emulated on top of some thing else.

That's perhaps why it was the best selling Amiga OS product together like Amiga Forever ?

* No legacy support, no die hard classic fans

WinUAE ? Works great.


At any rate, the decision to go PPC was made years ago. Hyperion allready said that they are not targetting the desktop market. They are however making a desktop version of the OS so programmers can develop easier for the targeted market. We're just "lucky" enough for them to do this. Their not per see in it for us even thou they might like us.

X86 doesn't exist other then a translation on/in a CPU, you could use the modern instruction set in Intel or AMD CPUs. Windows 64 bit is AFAIK, ignorant of the X86 and uses an emulator to run X86 code (WOW there is a concept there huh.. I wonder if Apple thought about that.. Oh wait they did.. Even in 2 ways.. An emulator and a "special" binary..

Apple seems to think it will do them good. Why ? For one thing, most users don't give a about what hardware the OS runs on. As long as it's cheap, reliable. Go on the street, ask any regular how they think about the X86 intruction set. Most people don't know what it is.

Do you really think any would be Amiga user would go into a shop, look at a Windows box, an Apple Intel box and an Amiga PPC box and think, hey, I pay 600$ more just so I can run on a PPC ?

I don't think Amiga OS would be better of on "X86". The hardware isn't the only problem, and who knows, even a "X86" made Amiga might have supply problems. The other problem is the lack of good software on par with the best Windows and OSX can deliver.

Last edited by Seer on 10-Jan-2006 at 09:48 PM.

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Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
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