@kgrach

Quote:

kgrach wrote: @nDude What the lets port it all over to the X86 crowd forgets or doesn't have a clue about.. It is not practicable to do unless you make a CUSTOM X86 MOTHERBOARD..........

The opposite is true, it's more "practicable" to not have to do any hardware design at all, but this is probably the wrong thread for that anyway, Dave Haynie went into it in great detail in the other thread already.

Quote:

But not so you say. why can't I can buy any PC motherboard for 15.99 at cheapway and it works with XP. So why not OS4?

Can you buy a PPC Mac and run OS4 on it? No? Then you appear to have moved the goalposts in your comparison. This point is attempted over and over again and it drives me nuts.

AMIGAOS4 PPC DOESNT SUPPORT ALL PPC HARDWARE EITHER. WHY MUST AN X86 VERSION SUPPORT ALL X86 HARDWARE?
AmigaOS4 PPC only runs on an AMIGAONE.

Argh.

Or let's hit this from another angle:

"AmigaOS4 PPC wouldn't work because people will buy any old PPC machine at the Apple store and it works with MAcOSX. So why not OS4?"

Quote:

Because the MOTHERBOARD MANUFACTURER MAKES DRIVERS FOR XP.

AmigaOS4 PPC doesn't use drivers? Sure it does. Non sequiter though, what does needing chipset drivers have to do with the CPU? BOTH CPU's need chipset drivers.
.
Quote:

You guy's forget the early Linux years where it worked on just a FEW SELECT hardware setups.

What's wrong with that? AmigaOS4-PPC only works on ONE SELECT hardware setup. AGAIN, WHAT does this have to do with the CPU? An x86 AmigaOS4 could support ONE SELECT hardware setup too. Stop moving those goalposts, it's messing up the ice and the Zamboni's out of order.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@drstrangelove

Quote:

drstrangelove wrote: @all Hi all. Just wanted to know if anybody else besides me has contacted that guys and if there is any comment on that? http://www.ivys.es/devel/DOC-REF-15012005v21.html In my opinion, there IS hardware for Amiga OS, but the people that makes it doesn't even know...

Maybe they do know, and stopped following up on the lead when they read the license terms at www.amiga.com. Maybe Hyperion could contact them directly and gently explain that the site www.amiga.com is simply a ghost from 2002.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

So, why does Windows98 run on many if not all x86 motherboards that were made after Win98 was made? Ok, it might not be able to activate all chips on the board, but it sure will boot. Same for Linux. So, my bet is that the BIOS does all the main set-up (nb/sb). You could use the same for an x86 version of OS4.
Sure you need specific drivers for sound chips etc., but in most cases that's doable. In any case, you can make a compatibility list like ZetaOS.

_________________
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@T_Bone and others,

The OS runs "now" only on ppc, so stop talking abouth x86.

We are talking here abouth ppc-hardware and wich category
would be best to use as an entry level.

Edit: sorry Dave, not meant for you.

Last edited by Dirk-B on 02-Feb-2006 at 01:18 PM.

_________________
A1G3-SE + OS4.1 u1 iso (x2)

I want a low end computer because I require basic functionality. I am currently looking for a new or used computer to do the following. I think the tasks are more appliance oriented.

I want a small, fanless, quiet computer. Potentially luggable to other people's houses with minimal effort. The A500 and A600 were like that.

I want a computer I can keep running in my bedroom at night without it keeping me awake. I might want to do lengthy processing tasks or downloads, or run it as a server at night.

Speed is only really relevant for me for games and I'll purchase a PS3 or XBox360 for that. I looked at a lot of screenshots today and I have to say the next gen graphics leap may be as significant as the jump from 8-bit to 16-bit games.

I want decent graphics but I don't care how fast the 3d graphics are because I wont be playing high tech games. It only needs to run UAE or other emulators to fulfill my gaming needs. Native games would interest me though.

I can do without the most advanced browser because I'll always need a PC for my MS programming, and anyway it's more convenient for me to lug my notebook all over the house and access the web wirelessly anyway.

I DO however want to be able to play DVDs through it, either to a monitor(of course) or straight to a TV, so it NEEDS TV out. Does it need HDTV? Errr...maybe not this version. Does it need surround sound? I'd prefer it if it does but I could go without it.

An optional internal laptop DVD burner would be great and doesn't take up any more space than a normal one. I have an external DVD burner right now which is great. I can't explain it but It feels very Amiga like to have such a thing as external peripheral. So if it had to absolutely be external, then that's ok.

It would be nice to effortlessly plug this low-end computer into the TV and be able to play DVDs, DivX and MP3s via a remote control in a vide/jukebox fashion. My latest DVD player does that and it's way cool. Perhaps the remote could also double as a mouse. Amiga's almost instant-on is a real plus and I'd want an on button from the remote.

The only thing I might need speed for is to rip CDs or DVDs for later playback. As I do this overnight it usually doesn't disrupt me. Hence I want it quiet. But as I do this task overnight anyway a fast processor is not essential provided the task gets done in 8 hours or so.

It might be handy to do basic browsing on my TV. If only to look up the TV programme, news headlines, pda.Amigaworld.net, slashdot, video.google.com. and webmail. Won't need a keyboard if it's bookmarked, so it would be cool if the remote could work as a mouse or have browser related hotkeys.

Wireless functionality would also be cool. I use it constantly for my laptop and it's the easiest way to share the web.

Hell, it might not hurt to make the remote a wireless game controller. My chinese knock-off TV has tetris in it playable from the IR remote and my girlfriend spends way too much time on it. If it had, say, Great Giana Sisters she'd never get off the thing.

This computer probably doesn't need to record TV because P2P has killed TV for me. I might want bittorent permanently running in the background though. So as I said I want it running fanless and quiet, over-night or constantly on.

I am not really a power user but I will want to muck around with the OS, and probably will muck around with programming. I would probably dual boot linux for emergencies. I might want to have a big laptop drive in it, and access it from my notebook. I might want to access this computer from work via the internet.

The A1 would have been sufficient for my needs, especially with it's built in graphics and sound and small form factor. And it's even better in the fantasy case. Perhaps the G3 based Troika might be enough to fill that need.

Expandability is not required if it does the above. I want this Amiga to be an easily accessible geek toy. If I want to do more taxing things, I'll buy a high-end Amiga or PC. Who knows if consoles will fill these requirements at some stage.

Do you think the standalone powervixen can do all that?
It's small enough to be in an A600 kind of case. How about an A600 fantasy project?
Should I run out and buy an A1200?

To me the small size of an Amiga would warrant the extra price tag. You pay a lot for tiny technology, are more forgiving of the power of the device, and would at last have something to brag about. I probably would have gone for a mac-mini. I still might. At the moment I use my laptop to do ALL the above tasks even when it's stationary.

Oh, it's gotta look like an Amiga, or at worst a really cool looking DVD player device.

Ok. What do you think?

Ok. Going back to my happy place now.
I want an itty bitty hotdog with a tonne of tomato sauce.

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@DaveAE

Quote:

So, why does Windows98 run on many if not all x86 motherboards that were made after Win98 was made?

It’s called vesa drivers and they are slow and normal display 8 colours, butt yes your normally able to boot whit not supported drivers using slow PIA modes, if you do not have the right driver.

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@PhantomInterrogative

I think the CELL is nice chip it has built in memory controller if I’m not mistaken, but yes it maybe need some extra chips or tow.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Ofcourse I'm aware of VESA and PIO modes. But if it required drivers for the nb and sb, the thing wouldn't boot at all. But I'll leave it at this, since it's off-topic.

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@DaveAE

Yes butt the SB and NB is support in the BIOS and many generic drivers make use of bios calls, just like VESA drives access the VESA BIOS.

Just like many sound cards support some legacy Sound Blaster support, but some only have this legacy implemented in software to get DOS games runing.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Feb-2006 at 03:44 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 02-Feb-2006 at 03:43 PM.

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@T_Bone

Hi again, I am the mips guy

Why didn't hyperion approach AMCC. They could provide low end solutions with embedded processors. Something mini-itx like via's offerings. Any ideas?

The motherboard mentioned on the thread seems good even for Linux. I think it could reach more customers than AOS. You know, there are unix people wanting to run apps on PPC.

The smart thing to do is use a PROVEN CONCEPT which is a simple a base motherboard with a bunch of expansion slots in which people can expand to thier hearts content.
This way the Amiga is based on a platform that can be delivered both fast and low cost.

GHZ means nothing thats like rating a car by RPM.
Also if you noticed that the latest Processors from intel have a slower clock rating than of thier earlier processors.

Kgrach

Last edited by kgrach on 02-Feb-2006 at 10:50 PM.

@nDude

Quote:

If everything is replaceable you have no common lowest hardware base anymore and you are forced to write drivers until you drop. Not having a set of lowest supported config would be bad for both developers and users.

I don't agree. You write drivers for your mainboard, and for whatever plugins you make to plug in to it or otherwise, others are responsible for drivers and their own plugins.
You can still make newer boards with better memory specs as technology provides but you have simplified things by not including all those "extra" features and also lowerd production costs by not wiring them in or placing them on board.

I don't think it would be bad for either developer or manufacturer and it's certainly easier than trying to compete with MSI / ASUS on bang for buck. Still, that's your opinon and your entitled to it.

Quote:

Cpu connectors are terribly expensive things that are hard to design and tend to slow the system down.

As for cost of CPU connector, I can't agree with you here either. A socket can't cost that much more, yes it could be more expensive than a PCI connector or express connector IF IT'S CUSTOM, but it's just that. It's still a connector, there's no logic.
If used correcly it performs just as well as any other connector would.
The right connector will not slow the system down otherwise you wouldn't have sockets(conncetors) for CPUs now. My AMD 3200 XP has a CPU connector, it's just as fast as if it was soldered to the board ;)

Last edited by SHADES on 03-Feb-2006 at 06:44 AM.

_________________
It's not the question that's the problem, it's the problem that's the question.

@SHADES

Ok, i changed the low-end picture :

low-end update




Edit: now, how much would such a board cost to make?

Last edited by Dirk-B on 03-Feb-2006 at 07:38 AM.

_________________
A1G3-SE + OS4.1 u1 iso (x2)

I agree with all that said we need a cheap entry level Amiga.

We know Amiga OS will ONLY run on PPC. (At least for the next future)
So lets look at the options that we have and that make sense:

The are SOC, G3,G4 and G5.
I think the G3 will be a bad choice for a future system.
Its much slower than a G4 and MORE expensive.

Here a quick overview over the available PPC

SOC system - like 5200 used in the EFIKA
- 400-500 Mhz
- can issue 2 integer instructions per clock
- has no 2nd level cache
*theoretical peak integer instructions 1 Billion/sec

G3
- 600-1000 Mhz
- can issue 2 integer instructions per clock
- up to 1MB of 2nd level cache
*theoretical peak integer instructions 2 Billion/sec

G4
- 600-1700 Mhz
- can issue * 3 * integer instructions per clock
- up to 1 MB of 2nd level cache
- has Altivec
*theoretical peak integer instructions 5.1 Billion/sec

G5
- 1000-2700 Mhz
- can issue 2 integer instructions per clock
- up to 1 MB of 2nd level cache
- has Altivec
- 64 bit
- available as DUO core
*theoretical peak integer instructions 5.4 Billion/sec per core
*But the problem is that Amiga OS is 32bit and Amiga OS can not use two cores

The G5 is a nice CPU and has a better memory throughput than all
the other currently available PPC chips. The next gen G4 will have
a much better memory throughput too but they are not out yet.
The G5 is much better than what Apple made out of it.
Apple messed up the northbridge the G5 can actually do 50% better memory througput
than what Apple archieved.

The current Amiga OS can not use the second core of the DUO core G5.
And it will need some adaption for running on the G5 in the first place.

A low clocked G4 (7448) is always faster then any G3 and cheaper too.

Good options for an entry system are a system on a chip like the 5200.
Small, (cheap), very low power or maybe a low clocked G4

For a fast Amiga currently the best option is a high clocked G4

Gunnar

_________________
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@SHADES

Half a point for you.

1: We agree 100% on the driver model. It's much better (driver wise) to have it as modular as possible, because no matter what you solder on to the motherboard someone is going to want a driver for something in a PCI slot. I'm fairly certain most customers are smart enough to realise that if their graphics card ain't on the list of supported graphics cards, there's no point in complaining. Check before you buy. There's also the fact that even though the motherboard doesn't have to have anything soldered on, you could do creative bundling, so the systems shipped to most users have the same cards in them. This would make sense, because most users would not get the same price as a reseller buying in larger batches.

I know I save some money that way, buy purchasing stuff for private use through my job, saving one link in the distribution chain (my company is a distributor of PCs and PC parts because we sell stuff that occasionally need a bundled PC for control).

So the "what should typically be inside the tower case" discussion should really be kept apart from the "what should typically be soldered on the motherboard" discussion. I think too many of the "a low-end must have at least these things" fails to see that distinction.

2:
But you're 100% wrong on the connector issue.
The AMD has pins, the PPC doesn't. The PPC therefore wouldn't need ONE connector, it would need to be soldered to a board that has a connector, and that would plug into a connector on another board. That's TWO connectors.

Both the AmigaOne and the Pegasos has a male and a female connector between the soldered-on CPU and the northbridge, the AMD and Intel processors only have the female connector, they have pins on the CPU itself.

So you cannot compare these at all.

Note that the AmigaOne has a fairly expensive connector, one that is capable of up to 700Mbps operation or so (it's used in the 16-bit wide 10GbE PHY block standard "300 pin MSA", where each of the 16 pins in each direction runs a 600-700Mbps signal, depending on excact bitrate). The connector in the Pegasos is fairly cheap and has never been (afaik) used above 133Mbps per pin.

If you have a $299 motherboard, adding a $150 connector will need quite a bit of justification (yes, the MegArray costs something like that in small quantities. It's a DAMN good connector, though. Too bad it would have to be twice the size to be useable with an SoC. But with an SoC the SoC is about 80 percent of the cost of the motherboard, so if you upgrade the CPU, you upgrade the whole board, there's precious little to be gained by having a replacement CPU costing the same as the whole board).

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@BigGun

You can't classify SoC as a performance class, there are SoCs ranging from 32 bit 33 MHz to 64 bit 2.5GHz (dual core). Just so you know.

And the G5 has better memory throughput, but HORRIBLE memory latency.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

Ok, the picture is back to soldered cpu.

Can you tell us what the cost is of a low spec soc cpu + mini-board?

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@BigGun

BigGun the SOC G4 at 1.7 Ghz is interesting

@Dirk-B

The problem I can se whit not having the socket is that you end up whit different design of the board for low end market and the hi end market, this is problem if your going to spend time testing design, and ending whit different main board for every CPU, if you have socket you can simply drop in different CPU whit out redesigning the main board.

How ever if you use SOC that contains USB2 and so on, then you end up whit CPU board and one PCI board, because USB is on the SOC, so this simply stupid.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 03-Feb-2006 at 03:05 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

If you have an SoC then using a socket _is_ simply stupid, because different SoCs are so different ( some use PCI, some use PCIe. Some use DDR, some use DDR2, some use SDRAM. Cell uses XDR).

So if you want SoC, then the motherboard IS the CPU board. The added cost of 2 DDR2 connectors, 3-6 PCI(e) connectors, larger PCB and the logic / regulators needed to behave as an ATX board is peanuts compared to the cost of a 1000 pin MegArray connector. Seriously.

So as I've been trying to say, if you do NOT use a connector, your complete PCB will cost less than the CPU board alone would WITH a connector. Because edge-connectors just doesn't cut it at DDR2 and PCIe speeds (yes, theoretically anything can be done, but it sure aint fun to double the amount of skew on a wide bus and then try to deskew it).

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@Dirk-B

Well, I'm currently looking into the AMCC440SPe, I haven't got any prices yet (they're still sampling).
A quick production cost estimate for 667MHz 440GRx + GbE (single or dual) PHY, DDR and 4-6 PCI slots (unfortunately only one PCI bus, no PCIe or AGP) on an ATX PCB would be around 1500NOK. Could be significantly lower (could be off by 50% or more), but it won't be much higher. Cost for similar using 440SPe (and PCIe) would be a bit higher, but not a lot. The PCB is a significant cost here (unless you happen to have a PCB manufacturing plant sitting around )

(Edit: the EDN 2005 Microcontroller/Microprocessor directory lists the 440SPe at $126 (533 MHz). They don't list the GRx, but the cost should be slightly lower for that. Possibly around $100. Add $50 for the PCB, $3 per connector and $40 for the logic, bootflash and PSU regulation and you have a product. So 440GRx$667 should be doable for a cost of $200, 440SPe should be just about possible at a cost of $250).

@FithisUX

AMCC don't make embedded boards, they make embedded processors. Why would there be any point in Hyperion contacting them? Someone who designs boards should contact those who designs chips and those who design OSes should contact those who design boards. Anything else is just awkward.

Last edited by olegil on 03-Feb-2006 at 03:57 PM.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.