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      /  SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
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Anonymous 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 11:42:48
# ]

0
0

@polka.

True, that statement was like jumping 20 years back into time. A rather pointless example. I agree...

 
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polka. 
Re: Why AmigaOS Should Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 11:46:47
#262 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

@tjindy
Quote:
I think it is a bad idea.. Amiga was a computer for people who wanted something different than PC`s...


What makes an Amiga? The Amiga was originally a computer with the (popular and non "special" MC680x0 series, custom-chips and an own and great OS).
What is left of that?
Nothing except for the OS which was developed further.
We use common (and incredibly outdated) graphic cards, sound cards, bus-board, etc. that are all common (or were common) in standard x86 hardware. We even used the same crappy VIA-components. Nothing to do with "being different" or being "ahead".
So the only reason would be the PPC, which is more expensive and slower than comparable x86 CPU and doesn't have any particular advantages that would justify its use?

The only thing what is left from the original Amiga is the OS. Amiga was never PPC in the first place, it used a CPU which was very common (Atari ST, Apple 68k Macs) so how can people insist on PPC as the holy grail that "makes an Amiga"?

Last edited by polka. on 09-Jun-2006 at 11:49 AM.

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Seehund 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 11:49:24
#263 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2006
Posts: 416
From: Dar al-Harb

@Naz

Quote:

Naz wrote:
@Helgis

It should not be ported. Have you ever thought about piracy?


Aaargh.


"Special" hardware vs. "generic" hardware (including x86 or whatever) FAQ:

Q: Piracy!
A: That's not a "Q", or even a valid concern in this context. It's a conditioned reflex.
Even a hypothetical 100% protection (which is impossible anyway) against piracy is totally worthless and defeats its own purpose when it also means that AmigaOS is being actively prevented from being sold for a commercially attractive platform and generating an income.

Q: But AmigaOS can't support a bazillion x86 motherboards.
A: Correct. And? It can't support a bazillion PPC motherboards or graphics cards or sound cards or NICs either, but with x86 (and of course a cancellation of the compulsory hardware licensing scheme) there's more, cheaper and better motherboards and vendors to choose from once A SPECIFIC NUMBER OF CHIPSETS TO SUPPORT has been chosen.
Just list what's supported on the box and on the website. All OS/software vendors of all sizes and types seem to be capable of doing this, except Hyperion (according to AInc's reasoning). If the compulsory hardware licensing/bundling was dropped, the market would also be open for third parties to provide motherboard/chipset drivers and any other needed software to be used with separately sold copies of AmigaOS. Funnily enough, today people can write drivers for graphics cards or whatever else if they feel like it, but not for motherboards. Motherboards are apparently supposed to be seen as more "Amiga" than any other component in a computer, so they must be sold bundled with AmigaOS by a licensed vendor... :D

Q: But why drop PPC, when we're so close?
A: Who said "drop PPC"? And who said "drop PPC NOW!"?

Q: Look at Linux, Zeta, ...
A: Well, there you go! "Generic", popular, powerful, abundant and cheap hardware is good for "small" OSes too. QED.

Q: But we'd have to compete with Windows, Linux, ...
A: If you think AmigaOS would actually be competing with those, then it's competing with those regardless of hardware platform! AmigaOS has a rather HUGE and unnecessarily introduced disadvantage if it can only be bought together with "special" expensive and underperforming hardware on a "special" market. If a prospective buyer is honestly sitting on the fence in choosing between e.g. Linux and AmigaOS, and thinks they're equal in terms of performance, features, software support etc., then he'd likely pick the OS that runs on the best/cheapest hardware. With the better/cheaper hardware, the buyer would also get the advantage of being able to buy and run several OSes -- except AmigaOS, unless things change!

(to be continued...)

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BigD 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 11:59:53
#264 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7307
From: UK

@Seehund

Sensible reasons and all valid. However, this Amiga community is strapped for cash, talent, resources, you name it we don't have it (appart for maybe enthusiasm and loyality)! Hyperion have put years into the PPC incarnation of AmigaOS, aswell as lots of Eyetech's money! Amiga Inc licence agreements dictate the new OS (in the short term) will be PPC only.

I would argue this is our only and last chance to relaunch the Amiga as a mainstream-ish platform. If the PPC can't achieve this then this is the end of the line. I suggest that rather than hypothesising on what would have been a better decision back in the Phase 5/Gateway era (when the Amiga had oppurtunity to make a clean break onto a new chip type), why don't we except that the present has nothing to do with porting to x86 unless the PPC MACHINES ARE SUCESSFUL FIRST!!!!

Last edited by BigD on 09-Jun-2006 at 12:01 PM.

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Seehund 
Re: Why AmigaOS Should Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 12:00:57
#265 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2006
Posts: 416
From: Dar al-Harb

@tjindy

Quote:

tjindy wrote:
@Helgis

I think it is a bad idea.. Amiga was a computer for people who wanted something different than PC`s...


Funny, I bought my first Amigas because they were BETTER than PCs at the time, because they had the software and games I WANTED and NEEDED, and thus indirectly because they were POPULAR.

"Different"? Meh. As long as the hardware is not different because it's better, it's pointless to stubbornly try to enforce that difference when it's no longer required or wanted, or even under AInc's/Hyperion's control.
The difference we have today is that the hardware we're allowed to buy as AmigaOS users is worse, slower, less reliable, more expensive, barely if at all available, and when it's available we're only allowed to buy it from "special" vendors.

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polka. 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 12:03:58
#266 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

@Helgis
Quote:
If it happens that PPC hardwares actually become cheaper and easier to get just like with x86 hardwares, then i shall change my mind and then i will fully believe PPC really is the way to go for the Amiga.


Well, there was a time when desktop PPC systems were produced in volumes and when they were relatively cheap and available: When Apple was still supporting PPC.
But this was completely irrelevant to the Amiga market, since the licensing scheme prevents OS4 from being ported to cheap and available hardware.
There is simply no way that OS4-licensed PPC platforms are ever going to be cheap because they will never be produced in volumes.

Last edited by polka. on 09-Jun-2006 at 12:04 PM.

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polka. 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 12:08:52
#267 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

@BigD
Quote:
why don't we except that the present has nothing to do with porting to x86 unless the PPC MACHINES ARE SUCESSFUL FIRST!!!!


Maybe because some folks started to realize after 6 years that customized PPC platforms are never going to be successful in a license-restricted and tiny OS4-market?

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Insanity 
Re: Why AmigaOS Should Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 12:11:18
#268 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Aug-2005
Posts: 405
From: Sweden

@Wegster.
Talking about cell-ports is at this time rather pointless as the os does not as of yet support multicore or even multiple cpus. (rogue, Enthizilla correct/verify me here).


@someone_else
The x86-thingy
Back in the old days, the Amigas were rather undynamic computers, just like a console.
Also just like a console, the coders created more and more advanced programs using it. Since when a machine's hardware cannot be changed one has to learn how to use what one's got. This means that the less hardware one has to support, the faster and more specific one can make things. x86 is tons of cpus combined with tons of mobos combined with tons of graphics cards. Much to complex to support fully unless you have close to unlimited resources. This hyperion does not have, so settle for a limited ammount of hardware for starters (not including any IBM PC compatibles).

An example I can think of is a story about atari. I think Atari claimed it was impossible to do graphics all the way to the edge of the screen (or something like it) on one of their machines. This "issue" was of course solved by some Unix bearded guy living in his moms basement, with too much time on their hands.


PA-SEMI
While PA-semi seems veeery interesting on paper, they still lack working silicone, AFAIK (again if someone has elgoog;ed more then correct me). Until they have working silicone I think they should be considered with doubt.


My outsider POV.

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If you are going to quote me, do so fully or not at all.
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Naz 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 12:14:03
#269 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2004
Posts: 264
From: Unknown

@polka.

"Yes, I remember the C64 times. The world's most popular home computer. There are _still_ games being developed for it and _bought_. "

I know. And? If it is available for x86 some will copy it, some will buy it. I like more the idea of the bundle, as revenue is secure with the sale of every single bundle. C64 was an example as cracking was very popular in this times.

"Then there is Microsoft, with Windows as the worlds _most successful_ desktop OS."

Do you compare Microsoft with Amiga?? Not a good start for a serious discussion, don't you think?

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Zardoz 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 12:16:10
#270 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@billt

Quote:
Alas, x86 emulation in Uboot is not absolutely required for anything, as the only thing it does is run graphics BIOS so uboot menues are visible onscreen before it loads any OS.


And to initialize the cards to a known (documented) state.

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Tomas 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 12:16:14
#271 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@wolfe

Quote:

wolfe wrote:
@all

As per thread . . "SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86..."

NO . . .

It hasn't even been finished on PPC yet, and porting it will make the final release that much farther away, besides there are some very interesting PPC Tech coming like P.A.Semi Power Core Processor . .

And - There's no license for it . . . So get over it. . . .

You got it all wrong! Hyperion claimed that the OS would infact have been released already if it wasnt for the lack of hardware. The final version will only be released once there is hardware avaliable again.

Oh and there is no license for anything besides the AmigaONE either.

Last edited by Tomas on 09-Jun-2006 at 12:29 PM.

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Tomas 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 12:17:35
#272 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@Panthro
Quote:
What we DO need is a cheap G5 (optional Dual G5) MoBo with current PCI-E GFX support (eg. X1900 ) a port of BF2, WOW, CS source and Open office with good M$ datatype.

But there is no cheap PPC board in existance! Do you think we would whine about there being no x86 version if there actually was modern ppc hardware avaliable for cheap?

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Zardoz 
Re: Why AmigaOS Should Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 12:20:16
#273 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@Insanity

Quote:
Talking about cell-ports is at this time rather pointless as the os does not as of yet support multicore or even multiple cpus. (rogue, Enthizilla correct/verify me here).


In this specific case, you do not need SMP support. You only have *one* main CPU (the PPE) and 7 co-processors.

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Tomas 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 12:20:44
#274 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@Naz
Quote:

Naz wrote:
@Helgis

It should not be ported. Have you ever thought about piracy? My idea is that if you want to get out some money of the project you have to sell it bundled with a specific hardware. Otherwise, ported to an existing plattform, I think it will be copied. Remember the good old Commodore 64 times ...

naz

Why could it not be prebundled with a x86 board/computer package as well?
And you cannot just pirate it and expect to run it on any x86 system anyways, since the OS4 would probably only support a very limited range of hardware.

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Naz 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 12:24:00
#275 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2004
Posts: 264
From: Unknown

@Tomas

OK, you're right. I don't want to become my arguement a main point here, just saw that nobody mentioned it before. That's it.

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Tomas 
Re: Why AmigaOS Should Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 12:24:33
#276 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Jul-2003
Posts: 4286
From: Unknown

@tjindy

Quote:

tjindy wrote:
@Helgis

I think it is a bad idea.. Amiga was a computer for people who wanted something different than PC`s... Besides, PPC is still using in servers. x86 seems to be powerfull CPU but if you try to use it in the same way like you do on Amiga, you will se that it is less then power ;)

What makes ppc so different from x86 cpus?? The amigaone is basicly the same as a standard pc with the exception of the cpu. X86 is being used widely in servers as well.
And really, a modern AMD cpu is faster than for example G3 or G4 in most ways.

What made the Amiga special was the custom chipset and the OS. The cpu itself had very little to do with it all, not that 68k is anywhere similar to the ppc anyways.

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polka. 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 12:28:39
#277 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

@Naz

Quote:
I know. And? If it is available for x86 some will copy it, some will buy it.


I see, it's better to hide away the OS and hardware because it might be copied?! Deliberately _not_ selling it in volumes but keeping sales low since the hardware is either not available or extremely expensive? Deliberately choosing to make less profits because the software could be pirated?

Quote:
Do you compare Microsoft with Amiga?? Not a good start for a serious discussion, don't you think?


No. We were talking how an OS can be successful. Microsoft Windows _is_ extremely successful, wether you like it or not. A very basic requirement for making an OS successful is to have hardware for selling it for, don't you think?

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Zardoz 
Re: Why AmigaOS Should Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 12:29:33
#278 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@Tomas

An Opteron is faster than a G5, also.

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Seehund 
Re: SHOULD AmigaOS Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 12:38:51
#279 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2006
Posts: 416
From: Dar al-Harb

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote:
@Seehund

Sensible reasons and all valid. However, this Amiga community is strapped for cash, talent, resources, you name it we don't have it (appart for maybe enthusiasm and loyality)! Hyperion have put years into the PPC incarnation of AmigaOS, aswell as lots of Eyetech's money! Amiga Inc licence agreements dictate the new OS (in the short term) will be PPC only.

I would argue this is our only and last chance to relaunch the Amiga as a mainstream-ish platform. If the PPC can't achieve this then this is the end of the line. I suggest that rather than hypothesising on what would have been a better decision back in the Phase 5/Gateway era (when the Amiga had oppurtunity to make a clean break onto a new chip type), why don't we except that the present has nothing to do with porting to x86 unless the PPC MACHINES ARE SUCESSFUL FIRST!!!!


We already know that the PPC machines as sold on the "Amiga" market were anything but successful, and PPC in general on the desktop is fading away. The announced vapourware of 2006 isn't more competitive compared to "generic" hardware of 2006, than the Terons/"AmigaOnes" were compared to other hardware in 2001/2002. If the compulsory hardware licensing/bundling remains, then this is indeed the end of the line, no matter if the print on the CPU says "Freescale", "IBM", "AMD" or "Intel".

I don't think AmigaOS will ever be "mainstream-ish". I'd be content with "nerd-ish". :)
But all it can aspire to be be under the current conditions is "independently wealthy or stupendously ignorant fanatic-ish".

Personally, I'm fine with an initial PPC-only release. But it needs to be sold for PPC hardware that is somewhat commercially viable and attractive. If anything, that's Macs. Possibly Pegasi as well.

So what if Eyetech lost money? (Though their markup on the Terons and that credit report which someone released suggest otherwise.) It's just a computer shop, whatever one computer shop does should not be allowed to have any impact on AmigaOS or us users.

All work on AmigaOS 4 hasn't been wasted if an x86 port would be made. Some work, yes, since it couldn't be sold for PPC (dongled/licensed/bundled PPC, that is). But that work can be reused, and this time the work wouldn't start "from scratch" with obscure code in arcane languages, and on an open x86 market it could even hope to make some money.

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Insanity 
Re: Why AmigaOS Should Be Ported To x86...
Posted on 9-Jun-2006 12:40:02
#280 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 7-Aug-2005
Posts: 405
From: Sweden

@AMiGR

And an itanium2 is most likely even faster, but you know what?
nobody uses it, so processorspeed might not be everything after all?

sidetrack.
Oh and if I am correctly informed, then the "most capable" server-setup possible today is still alpha EV7 (??)-based, despite this core being designed partly at a university back in 2001. :)

EDIT:FFT- fat finger typo.

Last edited by Insanity on 09-Jun-2006 at 12:42 PM.

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If you are going to quote me, do so fully or not at all.
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