@mr_white

Quote:

As opposed to AOS4x86 being ready to launch any moment now...

I'd rather see SOME openness by Hyperion to a x86 port in the future than the current "x86 sucks and we won't code for it EVER" stance. I would rather see a common effort officialy supported even if by different companies/groups rather than the current 3 different directions which are going in totally different directions and serving to further fraction and divide the Amiga cimmunity. I am however coming more and more to the conclusion that there is a very strong possibility that at the end of the day we may end up with AROS as the only Amiga desktop OS if not THE only Amiga OS offering, which is why I recently started to support AROS financially.

Quote:

Your acquaintances, as developers enthusiastic about Amiga, I'm sure the AROS community would welcome them to join in and contribute bringing AROS forward.

I'm sure that they would be welcome. However, I don't think AROS is far enough along to recommend to anyone but the most die hard Amiga user/developer. I merely mentionned this to show the potential for growth in the number of Amiga users and developers outside of the current Amiga community.

Last edited by elatour on 12-Jun-2006 at 06:44 AM.

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@T_Bone

Quote:

Your acquaintances, as developers enthusiastic about Amiga, I'm sure the AROS community would welcome them to join in and contribute bringing AROS forward.

I couldn't decide either so I just donated and left it up to the team to decide which bounty to add the amount to.

Last edited by elatour on 12-Jun-2006 at 06:46 AM.

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@elatour

Quote:

However, I don't think AROS is far enough along to recommend to anyone but the most die hard Amiga user/developer.

Not very different from AmigaOS 4: Only the most die hard Amiga users do invest in some $1000-12000 mainboards that don't even feature the most basic onboard connectors.

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@polka.

Quote:

Not very different from AmigaOS 4: Only the most die hard Amiga users do invest in some $1000-12000 mainboards that don't even feature the most basic onboard connectors.

True. And how very sad. However, I woud still think that OS4 is much further along ,specially when one considers the number of apps, both legacy and new that are available for it as it stands. However, the lack of ANY hardware, let alone affordable and open hardware, illustrates my point exactly. Who, outside of the die hard Amiga fan, would buy a piece of custom hardware for test running an OS and possibly develop for it if it could not be used to run anything else alongside. An x86 option would provide existing users to dabble into the platform without having to invest into anything but the OS, specially if this were available to run in VMware or VirtualPC, or even XEN. This would make for some good marketing potential IMHO.

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@elatour

Quote:

Who, outside of the die hard Amiga fan, would buy a piece of custom hardware for test running an OS and possibly develop for it if it could not be used to run anything else alongside.

Also note that a major downside is that for other alternative OS (e.g. Zeta) there is the possibility to test-drive it using LiveCd's or demo versions. Even when you don't test it before, it's not a large investment, since either the hardware is already there or cheap to buy.

When being interested in Amiga OS4 as an outsider of the scene, the only way is to take the risk and spend >$1000 on something that you don't know yet. Nobody would do that.

Quote:

An x86 option would provide existing users to dabble into the platform without having to invest into anything but the OS, specially if this were available to run in VMware or VirtualPC, or even XEN. This would make for some good marketing potential IMHO.

VirtualPC? Do you mean to emulate a x86 (and a potential x86-based OS4.1) on a PPC machine? (for existing users to stay compatible after a switch to x86 is made). I was rather thinking about an x86-OS4.1 LiveCD or a PPC-based OS4.x emulated through PearPC. This would allow people who are interested in AmigaOS to test-drive it without having to buy >$1000 hardware.

Last edited by polka. on 13-Jun-2006 at 02:35 PM.

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@polka.

Quote:

VirtualPC? Do you mean to emulate a x86 (and a potential x86-based OS4.1) on a PPC machine? (for existing users to stay compatible after a switch to x86 is made). I was rather thinking about an x86-OS4.1 LiveCD or a PPC-based OS4.x emulated through PearPC. This would allow people who are interested in AmigaOS to test-drive it without having to buy >$1000 hardware.

I meant that an x86 version of OS4.x, if available, would allow for people to use the free VMware Player/Server or MS VirtualPC Express, or XEN virtual machine software for x86 Windows or Linux on their exsiting x86 system without having to spend another dime other than for OS4.x, and more importantly, without having to disrupt their existing x86 Windows and/or Linux setup. A Live CD would also allow for demo purposes, but no real creation of data or applications would really be possible, and I would imagine that a OS4.x for PPC running on x86 through PearPC's PPC emulation would be very slow and again limited to the most basic of demonstrations, not to mention expensive at what I would imagine be $100-150USD for what amounts to be a demo version, unless someone decides to release this for free or at a much reduced cost, of course.

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@elatour

Quote:

I'd rather see SOME openness by Hyperion to a x86 port in the future than the current "x86 sucks and we won't code for it EVER" stance. I would rather see a common effort officialy supported even if by different companies/groups rather than the current 3 different directions which are going in totally different directions and serving to further fraction and divide the Amiga cimmunity. I am however coming more and more to the conclusion that there is a very strong possibility that at the end of the day we may end up with AROS as the only Amiga desktop OS if not THE only Amiga OS offering, which is why I recently started to support AROS financially.

IIRC Rouge postings told that they won't port it because a port would mean an awful lot of work and it wouldn't be profitable.
As things has turned out a common effort seems impossible. A positive side effect is that we have three alternatives to choose from. I one of them vanish one has the opportunity to switch to another. I consider supporting AROS myself, but I think a consolidation is necessary for it to succeed. IMO the developent team should focus on the x86 distro entirely and put PPC/OSX, Classic ROM's and application development on ice.

Quote:

I'm sure that they would be welcome. However, I don't think AROS is far enough along to recommend to anyone but the most die hard Amiga user/developer. I merely mentionned this to show the potential for growth in the number of Amiga users and developers outside of the current Amiga community.

I'm not sure if the potential is as big as one may wish. True, many people show their interest if you mention Amiga, but it doesn't mean they actually ends up using it for real.
Compared to modern desktop OS's it is no match, something that not will go unnoticed past 'potential users'.

w

Last edited by mr_white on 14-Jun-2006 at 11:30 PM.

@mr_white

Quote:

IIRC Rouge postings told that they won't port it because a port would mean an awful lot of work and it wouldn't be profitable.

Well, that may be so, and don't ask me to quote something that I saw Rogue say several moons ago, but he did in fact say that x86 sucks and they would not code anything for it, ever. As for whether the effort involved would be substantial, I can't possibly comment on, but as for whether it would be profitable, it's all a matter of opinion and speculative in either case, including Hyperion's plans for the embedded market.

Quote:

As things has turned out a common effort seems impossible. A positive side effect is that we have three alternatives to choose from. I one of them vanish one has the opportunity to switch to another.

Although the impossible part of this has to do with many reasons, it has also been in great part due to the various parties in the equation tripping over their own tremendously huge egos. With such a small community left, 3 options (or 4 if you count the UAE variants) this does more harm than good by fracturing the community with 3 or 4 versions that don't share much between them. If there was some form of collaboration between them (if we were able to magically sweep all of the licensing BS and huge wounded egos aside ) and possibly some form of consolidation where appropriate, this would be a different story of course. In most cases, this would create a mutually beneficial sinergy, at least IHMO.

Quote:

I consider supporting AROS myself, but I think a consolidation is necessary for it to succeed. IMO the developent team should focus on the x86 distro entirely and put PPC/OSX, Classic ROM's and application development on ice.

I agree, except for the classic ROMs and applications. The ROMs issue needs to be addressed for the OS to be able to run as a true open source OS an no longer depend on legacy 3.x ROMs (unless they are eventually able to sell sepcial packages of the OS with the integrated ROMs like Cloato's AmigaForever UAE packages). As for applications, I agree that the OS folks should focus on the core OS, however, it helps to have others work on things like cross compilation, development tools and starting to port other Amiga apps to the platform in order to help build up a software library for it.

Quote:

I'm not sure if the potential is as big as one may wish. True, many people show their interest if you mention Amiga, but it doesn't mean they actually ends up using it for real.

Agreed. It's all very risky, including Hyperion's embedded plans, which I just don't happen to agree with others as to how rosy it's outlook is for the AOS4. But hey, we can't all agree on everything, and it's all hypothetical at this point anyway until AOS4 is released as Final, and more importantly, available for or on an embedded device of any importance or relevance.

Quote:

Compared to modern desktop OS's it is no match, something that not will go unnoticed past 'potential users'.

Very true.

Last edited by elatour on 15-Jun-2006 at 05:31 AM.

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@elatour

Quote:

The ROMs issue needs to be addressed for the OS to be able to run as a true open source OS an no longer depend on legacy 3.x ROMs

Hm... I think something's not clear here: AROS doesn't depend in any way on the 3.x ROMs. AROS is an OS on its own.

The ROM thing is to allow UAE to boot AROS and use legacy 68k apps within it. This special AROS version would be made in such a way as to share as many resources as possible with the host OS, like filesystems, clipboard, screens and even windows, so that you could have a seamless emulation of 68k apps, on any architecture, without "polluting" the host OS with integrated 68k emulation - which would not even be possible on x86 without crippling the whole OS performances.

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@All

Seeing that it more or less seems likely that Adam and ACK has really left the Amiga, then we are simply back to the discussion of having AmigaOS4 ported to x86 again..

@Helgis

Quote:

Seeing that it more or less seems likely that Adam and ACK has really left the Amiga, then we are simply back to the discussion of having AmigaOS4 ported to x86 again..

The discussion about a port to x86/x86-64 is valid irrespective of the question if there is ever going to be any PPC hardware to run OS4 on.
The availability of new OS4-licensed custom hardware would be just an extension to the road leading to a dead-end.

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@falemagn

Quote:

Hm... I think something's not clear here: AROS doesn't depend in any way on the 3.x ROMs. AROS is an OS on its own.

Sorry, my mistake. I was indeed misinformed. And eventhough something in the back of my head was telling me that AROS really should be independent on 3.x ROMs, I mistakenly assumed that the open source ROMs bounty was to address this need.

Thanks for the clarification.

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@Helgis

Quote:

Helgis wrote: @All Seeing that it more or less seems likely that Adam and ACK has really left the Amiga, then we are simply back to the discussion of having AmigaOS4 ported to x86 again..

No we aren't.

1) As I am pretty sure I once saw one of the Friedens post, and what the leaked AmigaInc/Hyperion contract *explicitly* states as well; Hyperion was granted the right to use and modify "the software" (OS 3.x) in order to develop "OS4" for *PPC*. Nothing more, nothing less. PowerPC. PPC. Period.

2) OS4 is a proprietary, commercial OS. But it will never be able to compete commercially on the desktop market. The x86 are powerful desktop CPUs (and server CPUs, but OS4 aint no server OS either); they consumes lots of power, generates lots of heat, and are powerful enough to drive Windows and other heavy OS's and the demanding desktop applications of 2006, and they are completely unrelevant for AmigaOS. Do a SWOT analysis, and you will see that Hyperion are absolutely correct when they focus on "embedded" use where OS4's strengths shines brightest; it's light-weight but yet powerful design, that makes it possible to fully drive an extremely low power (as in Watts), low performance hence *extremely cheap* hardware device, and still leave plenty of resources for the applications to consume.

X86 is neither wanted nor needed in an OS4 context. PPC devices á la Efika is.

Discussing x86 and in the context of any Amiga OS is a complete waste of time.

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

Discussing x86 and in the context of any Amiga OS is a complete waste of time.

I disagree. Discussing x86 in the context of AmigaOS 4.0 might be a waste of time and is unlikely to happen. Discussing a port of OS4.1/OS5.0 to x86 or its emulation under x86 is not a waste of time. It is highly hypothetical, but this is just what 80% of the talk here is about.

Quote:

X86 is neither wanted nor needed in an OS4 context. PPC devices á la Efika is.

This doesn't change the fact that unfortunately a port of OS4.0 to Efika is maybe as unlikely to happen as a port to x86 under the current Amiga Inc.

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@Helgis

Quote:

Seeing that it more or less seems likely that Adam and ACK has really left the Amiga, then we are simply back to the discussion of having AmigaOS4 ported to x86 again..

He hasn't said this, so don't panic. He's more than likely going to continue his project, but will most likely just stay very quiet from now on, until and if he has something to show to people. Anyone that is ever serious about coming to market with a new product HAS to have thick skin, and I'm sure that Adam is not THAT green at all of this. In the end, he may not be successful in his quest, and for a variety of possible reasons, but it won't be for a lack of trying, and I'm sure it will also not be because a few people posted a few critical e-mails about his making grandiose announcements, missing deadlines, and a few people making claims about his stuff being vapour or even personal insults.

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@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

The x86 are powerful desktop CPUs (and server CPUs, but OS4 aint no server OS either); they consumes lots of power, generates lots of heat, and are powerful enough to drive Windows and other heavy OS's and the demanding desktop applications of 2006, and they are completely unrelevant for AmigaOS.

People always equate x86 to the desktop variants of which Intel and AMD are the main players because the desktop is where they have the most visibility in the mainstream, however, there are many x86 flavours out there, including ones from Intel and AMD, that address these power and heat issues for the embedded markets, such as VIA and Transmetta among others.

Quote:

Do a SWOT analysis, and you will see that Hyperion are absolutely correct when they focus on "embedded" use where OS4's strengths shines brightest; it's light-weight but yet powerful design, that makes it possible to fully drive an extremely low power (as in Watts), low performance hence *extremely cheap* hardware device, and still leave plenty of resources for the applications to consume.

AOS4 might have SOME advantages over other OSes in this field, but there many other embedded OSes that are far more efficient at what they do in the embedded market than what AOS4 could provide. And even for the OSes where Amiga have a smaller footprint, they are still way too many other considerations to take into account that would simply still give AOS a major uphill battle to dethrown any of them in their respective areas (e.g. PDA, Phones, network or electronic appliances and consumer products, and specialty or industrial embedded systems). So the bottom line, is that being technically compelling in a few areas is not what will determine whether AOS will be successful in the embedded market. The other thing you should do is check to see how many PPC embedded devices or motherboards there are and you'll see that there simply aren't many.

Quote:

X86 is neither wanted nor needed in an OS4 context. PPC devices á la Efika is. Discussing x86 and in the context of any Amiga OS is a complete waste of time.

This is your opinion only, and one that's not shared by many others here. But you're of course entitled to your opinion.

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@polka.

Quote:

polka. wrote: @takemehomegrandma Quote: Discussing x86 and in the context of any Amiga OS is a complete waste of time. I disagree. Discussing x86 in the context of AmigaOS 4.0 might be a waste of time and is unlikely to happen. Discussing a port of OS4.1/OS5.0 to x86 or its emulation under x86 is not a waste of time. It is highly hypothetical, but this is just what 80% of the talk here is about.

IMHO it's not even hypothetical.

As I said in post #353 above, it's PowerPC, PPC, period! This was settled and cut in stone even before a single line of code for OS4 was written. It's regulated by the very contract between Amiga Inc and Hyperion that made OS4 possible.

When it comes to 4.1 and so on ... I am one of those who believe that Amiga Inc will take OS4 back in-house (=away from Hyperion) by activating the nasty "buy-back option" outlined in the contract as soon as "OS4 Final" is released. And maybe there is a very small chance that any future buyer of the Amiga IP portfolio would consider an x86 port for OS4, but frankly I don't think that's very realistic. Porting the OS to x86 would be a monumental task comparable to porting it to PPC in the first place, and it would gain nothing since modern x86 desktop systems are completely out of the scope for OS4 anyway (it can't possibly compete to neither Windows nor Mac OS), so ...

Quote:

Quote: X86 is neither wanted nor needed in an OS4 context. PPC devices á la Efika is. This doesn't change the fact that unfortunately a port of OS4.0 to Efika is maybe as unlikely to happen as a port to x86 under the current Amiga Inc.

The general situation for OS4 is quite impossible IMHO. It's locked down by the AmigaInc contract. While an x86 port has an absolute 0% of happening, maybe an Efika port has at least 1% chance or so? That's about how much I dare to hope for the resumed Genesi lawsuit against Amiga Inc. And in my view, that lawsuit may very well be the last and only chance OS4 has to prevail ...?

@elatour

A basic version of the Efika board can be sold for $99 (*including* a small profit margin). The CPU/SoC consumes some 1 Watt or so on average if I am not totally mistaken. A lean *system* could perhaps consume 10 Watts or so, depending on configuration.

Those are key specifications. Keep that in mind, but focus on some application or area of use instead. Like using Hollywood 2.0 for information kiosks, in-store demo units, public billboard systems, or whatever. There you will have a power application, a perfect symbiosis of hardware, OS and software application. This is what we are looking for. CPU is not even interesting in this context, only the application and the value it brings. So why even think of x86?

And again - x86 has never, is not, and will never be in the scope anyway. So this discussion is kind of moot, right?

@polka.

Quote:

When being interested in Amiga OS4 as an outsider of the scene, the only way is to take the risk and spend >$1000 on something that you don't know yet. Nobody would do that.

Yep, totally agree. Any such hardware would need to be cheap, free as in already owned, or offer something truly compelling in the hardware, OS, or apps, to have any chance of sales there. Something a bit more pricewise than a GP32, say up to $400 or so, but the higher it goes, the lower the number of possible purchasers from that segment.

Quote:

VirtualPC? Do you mean to emulate a x86 (and a potential x86-based OS4.1) on a PPC machine? (for existing users to stay compatible after a switch to x86 is made). I was rather thinking about an x86-OS4.1 LiveCD or a PPC-based OS4.x emulated through PearPC. This would allow people who are interested in AmigaOS to test-drive it without having to buy >$1000 hardware.

As we seem to continue to see delays or possible 'no show' on hardware, I'm beginning to like the emulation idea better and better. A 'Test Drive LiveCD' or equivalent, even if running with poor performance, perhaps packaged with SDK, dev docs, UAE, etc..would be a nice demo, and then assuming a low ($$) end or reasonable piece of hardware existed, it could draw some additional users.

Another option would be similar to VMWare, perhaps modifying QEMU to run on PPC Macs, and NOT emulate the PPC CPU, but only A1 hardware (or 'compatible')- the NIC, ide, and gfx...maybe less 'widespread' of a chance as x86, but maybe more doable, and still has appeal to those with perhaps older Macs..again, in a ready to run package with OS4, docs, UAE, etc..and likely running faster without requiring (full?) CPU emulation.

Adam said in irc he's managed to boot OS4 under QEMU previously on an AMD64 box. Your call on believing it on not, but I've got to believe running on a PPC box (Macs) with 'light' emulation, meaning no CPU emulation, would still be pretty speedy, even in the event graphics may need emulation as well..

Heck, I'd buy it tomorrow. Maybe the PPC emulation on x86 has some merit for a demo, or even perhaps a development test box (laptop with OS4, even if slowly...)...

Has anyone done any coding with virtualization that can comment?

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@wegster

Quote:

wegster wrote: As we seem to continue to see delays or possible 'no show' on hardware, I'm beginning to like the emulation idea better and better. A 'Test Drive LiveCD' or equivalent, even if running with poor performance, perhaps packaged with SDK, dev docs, UAE, etc..would be a nice demo, and then assuming a low ($$) end or reasonable piece of hardware existed, it could draw some additional users. Another option would be similar to VMWare, perhaps modifying QEMU to run on PPC Macs, and NOT emulate the PPC CPU, but only A1 hardware (or 'compatible')- the NIC, ide, and gfx...

If it's a way to show off OS4 in a demo you are looking for, here is an other example of how it could be done:
http://www.techonline.com/community/member_company/non_member/virtualab/5751

Pros: No special hardware needs to purchased by the interested user. No struggle with setting up an emulator envireonment on your local computer. Everyone can - in discussions about OS4 such at this, all over the web - simply post a link like this ...

... and your audience can almost in an instant see what you are talking about with their own eyes.

Cons: Would require a serious programming effort, but IMHO it won't even be close to the effort needed to create an x86 live CD, or developing/modifying QEMU to contain UAE-alike features while removing the CPU emulation (a completely new emulator in practice, since QEMU today is a CPU emulator only AFAIK).