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      /  Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
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overdose 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 15-Jun-2006 21:34:41
#21 ]
Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 26
From: Sydney, Australia

@Tigger

If by Airlink you mean AirPort (803.11b/g) then yes it does exist on the A1. There has been an 802.11b driver for sometime (a long time). A free download from Aminet: prism2.lha Or you can use an Ethernet to WiFi bridge.

As regards the embedded market, more competition makes it /easier/ to compete. People are more willing to try an 'alternative' (and often want an alternative), and it is easier to steal a little market share from many players than from one big one, and the entry costs are lower, etc

@thread

The big barriers for the Amiga is organisation and capital. If we could get one big company that would invest multimillions, a board could be released in the sub 500USD range (with CPU). There is risk though. It would take a big company with the organisational skills to evaluate the risk, and find an appropriate product and price point. Even the 6000USD IBM evaluation board could be brought down in price if enough units were sold. The 1000-2000 run of A1s sold for much less than the Terons they were based off of.

One way to solve our problems would be to make a startup where the Amiga community assumes the risk itself and buys shares in the startup, and then hire clever people to run it.

Last edited by overdose on 15-Jun-2006 at 09:36 PM.

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asian 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 15-Jun-2006 22:07:32
#22 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2003
Posts: 336
From: Unknown

In HK / China, Culturecom manufacture millions of dirt cheap V-Dragon based Point Of Sales board (electronic cash registers). This CPU is based on PowerPC 405 and supported by both IBM and HP.

There is a plan to create "Drunken Dragon" aka DC power generator based on Ethanol and the CPU for laptops, PDA, MP3 player, cellphone etc. The device is programmable using USB/Firewire/Serial. IMO if AmigaOS 4 can be ported to this device, this will increase the market size of AmigaOS 4.

>Other planets
NASA use PowerPC for their robots on Mars / Space station.
Perhaps in the distant future, they will build IC fab on moon / other planets.




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itix 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 15-Jun-2006 22:37:34
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@overdose

Quote:

The big barriers for the Amiga is organisation and capital. If we could get one big company that would invest multimillions, a board could be released in the sub 500USD range (with CPU).


They are not barriers, not even big. DIY kit for company starters:

1. Create a business plan, evaluate risks and think it through
2. Introduce your business plan to venture capitalists and convince them
3. Start company, hire employees, buy equipment and start working on your product
4. Sell finished product to end users and make profit

Easy peasy. You dont have to be expert or anything like that because you hire HW designers and SW developers from the free market. You, being CEO, only concentrate on making business.

There are some problems in my four step guide but I let readers find it out

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Samwel 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 15-Jun-2006 22:42:41
#24 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3404
From: Sweden

@Tigger

Quote:

None of the systems prophecied by ACK or Troika will outperform the Mac Mini


Well that's not really true. ACK and Troikas high-end boards both use 1.7GHz 7448
and Tundra Tsi-109 with full 200MHz FSB and 400MHz DDR2 memory.
If I'm not mistaken Mac Mini is not this powerful?! Actually no other desktop G4
motherboard is..
But then it seems ACK is cheapening out on the extras by removing PATA and
maybe even USB2.0 from the board itself. Thus lowering the overall performance

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billt 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 0:55:27
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@Tigger

Quote:
None of the systems prophecied by ACK or Troika will outperform the Mac Mini


I'll bet you US$100 that the prophecised ACK/Troika products will match or exceed the Mac Mini in performance of OS4 software.

How can I possily lose? If both Troika/ACK fail to deliver anything at all, well, a non-existent computer performs just as well as a Mac Mini in terms of OS4 software. If ACK or Troika deliver anything at all, even a buggy horror based on a PPC 601, would still perform better than the Mac Mini for OS4 software. Bwaahaahaa!

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gary_c 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 1:44:39
#26 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Mar-2004
Posts: 874
From: Chiba, Japan

@TheDaddy

The Pegasos would be great for running AOS4, as far as I can tell. The reason it's not available is completely artificial -- just the personal or "political" decision by Amiga, Inc., it seems. People who don't want to touch a "BBRV" product even to run AOS4 could boycott it if they want.

PPC Macs could also be an answer. Even if their production ended today, there are millions of them around and Macs tend to work for a long time. Like Tigger says, porting to them is very possible; the decision just has to be made to do it. Maybe not ideal, but better than nothing (and quite likely a nicer package in the end than a Troika/PV would be even if those did come out, if you think about the maturity of the products, likelihood of bugs, etc.) .

So it looks to me like there are at least a couple of PPC boards/boxes that could be solutions. But there are nontechnical reasons why they won't happen. I've begun to think that maybe Amiga, Inc.'s interests are better served if AmigaOS4 is not a success -- maybe AOS failing will pave the way for an IP sale or something, I don't know. Anyway, I don't know how else to account for their nonsupportive/counterproductive behavior re AOS. It must be aggravating to see this perfectly good hardware around that could run AOS4 but can't simply due to decisions made by the Amiga-related companies.

-- gary_c

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Tigger 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 3:34:13
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-May-2003
Posts: 2097
From: Rocket City, USA

Quote:

overdose wrote:
@Tigger

If by Airlink you mean AirPort (803.11b/g) then yes it does exist on the A1. There has been an 802.11b driver for sometime (a long time). A free download from Aminet: prism2.lha Or you can use an Ethernet to WiFi bridge.


Really, the A1 has builtin airport?? Does everybody use it?? Or are you saying someone wrote a driver for a device that plugs into the A1 that does Wireless? It comes standard with the Mac, did it come standard with your A1?

Quote:

As regards the embedded market, more competition makes it /easier/ to compete. People are more willing to try an 'alternative' (and often want an alternative), and it is easier to steal a little market share from many players than from one big one, and the entry costs are lower, etc


No its not. OS 4 has to compete with dozens of companies who want less for there OS, despite it doing more, despite it being better, despite it actually running on hardware you can buy and despite the companies being able to show that they can quickly port to new hardware. I sold more Embedded amigas then anyone else, my company makes literally thousands of embedded products. I can think of no embedded product that OS 4 can compete or even be terribly useful to use for them. And the boys at Hyperion just making the situation worse.
-Tig

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gary_c 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 5:25:04
#28 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Mar-2004
Posts: 874
From: Chiba, Japan

@overdose
Quote:
The big barriers for the Amiga is organisation and capital. If we could get one big company that would invest multimillions, a board could be released in the sub 500USD range (with CPU).

What would be your selling points when you propose the idea to a big company? That they can develop and market a product that costs more and does less than anything else in its category? That you've got a brand name that no longer has any meaning -- thanks to Bill, fleecy & co. as well as the passage of time -- except to an ever-shrinking group of squabblers?

Quote:
One way to solve our problems would be to make a startup where the Amiga community assumes the risk itself and buys shares in the startup, and then hire clever people to run it.

Does this idea give anyone else Amino flashbacks? Not saying it'd turn out as bad as the current Amiga, Inc. did but I hope some lessons have been learned from that episode.

A few problems:
- The Amiga community is too small/poor to fund a startup.
- Any manager who's really clever would either steer clear of such a huge challenge or would find a way to take the money and run.
- AmigaOS has no prospects for profitability: the only appeal is to a tiny group of retro computing fans as there are no compelling features to attract new customers, compared to the established alternatives (despite the marketing fluff on os4.hyperion-entertainment.biz) or even other new OS projects.

I really think talk of "multimillions" is totally unrealistic. AmigaOS might survive as something for computing enthusiasts if it is approached, developed and marketed on that level, taking opportunities where it can find them. This means, to survive, not being overly particular about what hardware to run on. 'If it's available and works, then use it' should be the rule, as per my previous post.

-- gary_c

Last edited by gary_c on 16-Jun-2006 at 05:31 AM.

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Kronos 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 6:41:04
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2553
From: Unknown

@Samwel

Sure these boards might be able to use the 1.7GHz G4s, but as I understood that won't be the CPU used in their base models.

And even if, thats just 270MHz more than the bigger PPC-Mac-Mini which might not be enough to compensate the missing 2nd PCI/AGP-channel.

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Rudei 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 6:43:19
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Nov-2002
Posts: 3589
From: Dallas, Texas

@takemehomegrandma

Don't apologise.
Thanks for the links.

Rude!

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TheDaddy 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 7:48:40
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2005
Posts: 4499
From: Quattro Stelle

@gary_c

Nah...I don't think Amiga are that evil...

I believe that actually there is an office somewhere in New York where Amiga Inc. are based...and here there are three or four robots (powered by Windows CE) and they run things...

All day they develop dodgy games for dodgy devices and at the end of the shift, usually every 6 months, they update a dodgy website stating that the "future of Amiga is looking promising in the very profitable market of dodgy games for dodgy devices"...

Then at about 3 am they stop to do an Automatic Updates...

At 6 am they have a Wake On Lan moment because of the emails from angry Amigans so they decide to send automated replies saying "thank you for your interest in Amiga, we are working on some more exciting stuff..."

At 11 am they switch themselves off to cool down a bit.......several hours later they go back to work...

At about 6 pm MAGIA (the only robot to actually still have an AGA chipset) realizes that this is all wrong and it can't understand why its powerful chipset now is in a beige case that says "Intel inside"...

Ten minutes later MAGIA goes on a rampage...

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vortexau 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 8:08:57
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2651
From: . . outside the Pod-bay; Australia



Quote:
# Architecture
IBM PowerPC @ 150MIPS, 16+8MB memory
(Vesta)
IBM PowerPC @ 350MIPS, 16+8MB memory (Vulcan)

A fast processor (IBM PowerPC) is used to run Linux and all software features found on this product . . . .

Home Networking
WiFi 802.11b + Ethernet support
By using a compatible WiFi (or Ethernet) USB adaptor the ITV set-top box can connect to your home broadband connection (must have router).

Multimedia
MPEG1 MPEG2 WAV MP3 OGG AIFF JPG GIF PNG TS
Multimedia playback of Video and Sound files is possible. Simply put the files on a USB memory stick. Advanced users may wish to set-up a HTTP or FTP server on your home PC for file sharing.

Internet Access
Use the 56k modem inbuilt or connect via broadband!
General Internet browsing is possible. Great to look-up your favourite sporting websites or general news...

E-mail
Standard POP3/SMTP accounts (x10)
Up to 10 E-mail accounts are possible. The standard POP3/SMTP protocols are supported. Your Internet provider will give you these details. Attach pictures (or screen captures) to your e-mails. The easy way to communicate!

USB to Ethernet adaptors and wireless keyboards are available.


Can we just switch them from Linux . . . . to AmigaOS4.0?

Last edited by vortexau on 16-Jun-2006 at 08:10 AM.

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A2000HD (from 1991) 060 64Mb PicassoII with OS3.5 . . . still working.

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Seehund 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 11:34:58
#33 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2006
Posts: 416
From: Dar al-Harb

@overdose

Quote:

overdose wrote:
@Tigger

If by Airlink you mean AirPort (803.11b/g) then yes it does exist on the A1. There has been an 802.11b driver for sometime (a long time). A free download from Aminet: prism2.lha Or you can use an Ethernet to WiFi bridge.


Naturally drivers for many 3rd party WiFi PCI cards also exist for the OSes which run on Macs. I believe Tigger's point was that AirPort/WiFi is both included in the price of a Mac (a price which is CHEAP when compared to pointless "special" hardware sold on an "Amiga market") and it's quite supportable. "AmigaOnes" and similar excercises in futility cost much more while offering much less.

Quote:
As regards the embedded market, more competition makes it /easier/ to compete. People are more willing to try an 'alternative' (and often want an alternative), and it is easier to steal a little market share from many players than from one big one, and the entry costs are lower, etc


"People are willing to..." On the embedded market, and depending on the type of device, those people would mainly have to be the device manufacturers/vendors, not end users. Device vendors prioritise SELLING their devices over trying alternative OSes just for the heck of it, especially when this particular alternative OS does not offer the vendors and their customers anything better/more than the existing and well-established options do.

Quote:
The big barriers for the Amiga is organisation and capital.


The big barrier for the Amiga is having been dead for a decade, and not being planned to make a come back. I suppose you're talking about AmigaOS, not the Amiga. I don't think a current lack of capital is as big a barrier as the stubborn refusal to make it possible to SELL AmigaOS.

Quote:
If we could get one big company that would invest multimillions, a board could be released in the sub 500USD range (with CPU).


There's a truckload of companies who each invest multimillions in creating and selling new hardware every year. (With PPC, we're basically limited to Apple and Genesi though.) There just is no need or any sane reason for anyone to try to make a special hardware product for AmigaOS users, and there's no need or reason for the AmigaOS owners/developers to expect anyone that matters on the hardware market to bend over for them.

Make and sell AmigaOS for existing hardware. It's that simple. They are two totally different products from two totally different markets. AmigaOS is dependent on the hardware market, not vice versa. AInc can try to come back with their current idiotic licensing requirements once they're the size of Microsoft! :)
(Though not even Microsoft would try something as stupid as AInc are doing, as that would probably cost them their market lead.)

Quote:
Even the 6000USD IBM evaluation board could be brought down in price if enough units were sold.


That's one reason why "special" hardware for an artificially separated "Amiga market" does not work. There's just no volume to get prices, development rates et c. that are competitive to the open market. Sell AmigaOS for hardware that's popular instead.

Quote:
The 1000-2000 run of A1s sold for much less than the Terons they were based off of.


Can't we finally bury this old Eyetech lie?
The Teron developer kits cost ~$4000. But what's that got to do with anything?
The Teron motherboards cost $500, including a G3 CPU - when bought in SINGLE UNITS from Mai Logic or Inguard (or Terrasoft, if they hadn't found out about the flaws). I doubt they cost more than say $350 when e.g. Eyetech bought them in volume (even when considering the small batches) directly from a manufacturer.
Also, the A1s weren't "based off of" Terons. The hardware, the motherboards, were Terons. "AmigaOne" is an Eyetech trademark which was applied to their sales of their "special" product: Teron motherboards marketed to AmigaOS users.

Looks like you're saying Eyetech ordered one single 1000-2000 units production run of Terons. This doesn't make sense, considering all the delays, supply problems and alleged "fixes" and upgrades, not to mention that their sales of 4 different models (Teron CX "rev 1", Teron CX "rev 2", Teron PX, Teron Mini) amount to much less than 2000 units in total.

Quote:
One way to solve our problems would be to make a startup where the Amiga community assumes the risk itself and buys shares in the startup, and then hire clever people to run it.


Hand off the risk of hardware production to hardware producers, that's their job. This is already done. There is no reason for the AmigaOS project to get involved in the hardware biz. Now we just have to hope that the licensing/bundling/dongling requirement goes away, so that the whole point of running on 3rd party hardware isn't made moot.

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Seehund 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 11:41:12
#34 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2006
Posts: 416
From: Dar al-Harb

@gary_c

Quote:

gary_c wrote:

I've begun to think that maybe Amiga, Inc.'s interests are better served if AmigaOS4 is not a success -- maybe AOS failing will pave the way for an IP sale or something, I don't know. Anyway, I don't know how else to account for their nonsupportive/counterproductive behavior re AOS. It must be aggravating to see this perfectly good hardware around that could run AOS4 but can't simply due to decisions made by the Amiga-related companies.


Interesting. ;)

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gary_c 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 11:48:58
#35 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Mar-2004
Posts: 874
From: Chiba, Japan

@TheDaddy

I don't think the Amiga, Inc. guys are evil either. I'm just thinking that what might be good for them may not be what is good for AmigaOS users. (Or there's also the management-investors standoff possibility that Seehund reminded us of.)

As for your scenario, you give them way too much credit. They don't have an office in New York or anywhere else. The mail now goes to Garry Hare's home in northern California, according to somebody who did a search on the mailing address (I'm not sure what to make of Hare's "not affiliated any more" statement in that light). And nobody at Amiga, Inc. does any coding for dodgy devices or otherwise; all they do (somebody does), from time to time, is work out with one party or other a no-investment, no-risk sales agreement (has anyone actually seen any results from these?). And of course no "thank you but no thanks" emails go out, at least judging from what quite a few people have said about their attempts to make contact (apparently some people can get through on certain topics, again based on reports).

You may be right about MAGIA though.

-- gary_c

Last edited by gary_c on 16-Jun-2006 at 12:14 PM.

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Zylesea 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 12:58:44
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2004
Posts: 2263
From: Ostwestfalen, FRG

@vortexau

Quote:

vortexau wrote:


Can we just switch them from Linux . . . . to AmigaOS4.0?


AHT tried already and AI messed it up in the end.

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adiaux 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 13:54:35
#37 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@tonyw

Quote:

tonyw wrote:

But seriously, folks, the dearth of PPC mobos is probably explained by the fact that most of the PPC manufacturing ability is used for custom embedded designs that are not advertised on the web, so are not visible to non-insiders like us.


I believe that is very much the case. Other than for the mainstream desktop x86 motherboards, I can't recall any open, general desktop platform, totally open for any operating system which can easily be ported, and available to anyone interested (even in single board quantities), except the Pegasos from Genesi. So this is quite unique. The common thing outside the world of x86 mainstream boards, are either closed proprietary ones, or special designs custom made for certain target applications.

The Efika is also kind of unique in similar way. That too uses the same Genesi HAL/OF (meaning any operating system using it can boot on any Genesi device (or any third party device using the same firmware)). It will not be a traditional desktop system, but instead a clever building block for many kinds of embedded applications, and that too will be open and available for everyone, even in single board quantity (unlike most other more specialized PPC designs). It will also be released as "open source" similar to the Pegasos on power.org in a not too distant future.

Considering that we are bound to the PPC (which is not a bad thing at all), I don't see any other reasonable starting point than those two motherboards. The desktop Pegasos can be used by developers (and us "power users"/enthusiasts), developing for an Efika based application. Same OS, same tools, same envireonment on both boards, but the Pegasos offering a more powerful desktop and development envireonment, while the Efika is the target that will generate the future revenues.

Just my two eurocents!

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elatour 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 14:03:19
#38 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@TheDaddy

Quote:
I believe that actually there is an office somewhere in New York where Amiga Inc. are based...and here there are three or four robots (powered by Windows CE) and they run things...


Great story! I was grinning from ear to ear and chuckiling all the way through it!

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elatour 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 14:28:24
#39 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Jan-2005
Posts: 936
From: Toronto, Canada

@Seehund

Quote:
Interesting. ;)

Interesting post indeed! That's the story of Amiga though isn't it? For close to 15 year now it's been a bunch of corporate or tech guys with dreams of making millions fighting over IP that's loosing value with every day that goes buy with no meanigful progress at marketting it. People eventually trip over their huge egos and get into legal and other battles and then just sit their sulking, waiting for the other to make the first move. I mean, look at the various attempts to bring many innovative hardware and software to Amiga that have floundered because of licensing issues and legal battles....they are just too numerous to mention here!

Its really sad how so many corporate entities have had a crack at the can and screwed it up time after time. Eventhough they may have initially had good and ambitious intentions, these people just never seem to be able to work well with others, keep their eye on the ball make the various strategic alliances needed to make the vision happen.

The more time goes buy, the more I'm wishing AROS does take off and finally unleash the AmigaOS from corporate clutches, at long last giving it to the community that REALLY appreciates it.

Last edited by elatour on 16-Jun-2006 at 02:30 PM.

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serk118 
Re: Are there any PPC mobos manufacturers on this planet?
Posted on 16-Jun-2006 14:42:41
#40 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Nov-2004
Posts: 685
From: London(uk)

@Crumb

here you have the largest desktop ppc motherboard manofacturer

why mac moving to x86?

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