@overdose

Quote:

Yes, it's amazing how small you can make these OSs once you get rid of the eye candy :)

I actually read somewhere that Windows XP embedded can be reduced down to 8MB! I wonder how usable it is though! And speaking of eye candy vrs resource consumption, has anyone taken a look at Vista yet? Holy crap does this guy munch memory! I saw the other day someone running Vista with no applications, just a toolbar with a few gadets on it and it had something like 350Mbleft of memory out of 1Gb!!!! This is insane!

Last edited by elatour on 17-Jun-2006 at 05:04 AM.

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@asian

Quote:

asian wrote: >Other planets NASA use PowerPC for their robots on Mars / Space station. Perhaps in the distant future, they will build IC fab on moon / other planets.

Well when they do, send Hyperion up to talk to them, we'll probably still need hardware by then.

btw: Does RoHS apply to interplanetary trade?

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@billt

Quote:

billt wrote: @Tigger Quote: None of the systems prophecied by ACK or Troika will outperform the Mac Mini I'll bet you US$100 that the prophecised ACK/Troika products will match or exceed the Mac Mini in performance of OS4 software. How can I possily lose? If both Troika/ACK fail to deliver anything at all, well, a non-existent computer performs just as well as a Mac Mini in terms of OS4 software. If ACK or Troika deliver anything at all, even a buggy horror based on a PPC 601, would still perform better than the Mac Mini for OS4 software. Bwaahaahaa!

There's a ringing endorsement.

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@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote: @serk118 Quote: serk118 wrote: @serk118 i wish to see amigaOS 4.0 running on x86 so i dont have to bothered with ppc/68k boards. AFAIK, as I said in Helgis' "x86 thread" - it is my *firm belief* that the PPC route is cut in stone and established in the very contract that OS4's existence relies on, the contract that made it possible to develop it in the first place, the contract that was sealed before even a single line of official OS4 code was written. Hyperion's OS4-mandate and granted rights are for the PPC. Period.

They could just sign a new contract.

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@elatour

Quote:

elatour wrote: @overdose Quote: Yes, it's amazing how small you can make these OSs once you get rid of the eye candy :) I actually read somewhere that Windows XP embedded can be reduced down to 8MB! I wonder how usable it is though! And speaking of eye candy vrs resource consumption, has anyone taken a look at Vista yet? Holy crap does this guy munch memory! I saw the other day someone running Vista with no applications, just a toolbar with a few gadets on it and it had something like 350Mbleft of memory out of 1Gb!!!! This is insane!

Unused memory is wasted memory.

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@T_Bone

Quote:

Unused memory is wasted memory.

Unused memory gives a larger ramdisk

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@Hammer

My god, I hope you don't really think I was born yesterday?

*I know* there are different processors, and *I know* that there are different flavors of both x86 and Windows. I mean, do you really think I have never seen a "Windows" based PDA? Or QNX on a floppy, or Linux too for that matter? Or that I don't know about this and this, even though I linked to those pictures on the first page in this thread?

BTW, can't we just move the x86 discussions to Helgis' "x86 thread"? It's off topic here anyway, and it's annoying to post double ...

@Benji

Quote:

Benji wrote: @Tigger Quote: Just because Benji says it, surely doesnt make it true. OS 4 will take 2 months is one of his other brilliant tech quotes. Pardon? You dont mean me do you?

He most certainly meant "Benjamin Hermans" ...

@Skunkfish, elatour, T_Bone, etc ...

"All they have to do is getting a new contract with Amiga Inc"

Well, won't that be a piece of cake, or what?

@takemehomegrandma

Hey, I never suggested it would be easy!

They'd probably have as much chance getting blood from a stone but it must be worth a try?

Skunkfish

Last edited by Skunkfish on 17-Jun-2006 at 01:43 PM.

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@Skunkfish

Quote:

Skunkfish wrote: @takemehomegrandma Hey, I never suggested it would be easy!

Quote:

They'd probably have as much chance getting blood from a stone but it must be worth a try?

But then again - why?

@takemehomegrandma

Several reasons:

1) I'm at uni and space is very limited, not enough room for 2 computers. One x86 machine dual-booting into OS4 and XP would suit me fine.

2) Planned PowerPC hardware is underpowered and/or overpriced.

3) I can't get any! (erm... PowerPC hardware for OS4 that is!)

I'm sure more people feel similar...

Skunkfish

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Currently planning to upgrade my Amstrad CPC

@Skunkfish

Quote:

Skunkfish wrote: @takemehomegrandma Several reasons: 1) I'm at uni and space is very limited, not enough room for 2 computers. One x86 machine dual-booting into OS4 and XP would suit me fine.

Although I understand your point 1, you must see that this reason is quite personal from you. You want to continue to use your hobby, but would prefer to bring all OS's to a single computer. And I am sure you are not the only one feeling that way.

But OS4 is a proprietary OS with *commercial* ambitions, that has to choose a strategy and follow that path. They can't make such huge decisions based on reasons in your point 1. They have correctly turned down any desktop strategy, and will focus on various kind of embedded applications. X86 is not at all needed for that. And although "every developer needs a desktop"; this is not a valid reason to spend another 4+ years of time, effort and money to migrate to yet another architecture, especially not when we arrived at PPC *just recently* (are we even fully here yet?), and when fact is that *there is* a good quality desktop system that has all the power OS4 needs (and a lot more on top of that). This can function as a desktop for developers. And any "Amiga hobby geeks" will find it more than enough too! Ask around on morphzone.org if you don't believe me; many people over there are still even using the 600MHz G3 and are happy with it!

Quote:

2) Planned PowerPC hardware is underpowered and/or overpriced.

Compared to the latest desktop PC's, they are surely underpowered. But since desktop is completely out of the scope, this is not a problem. I'd dare to say that the top of the line 7448 is *way overpowered* for most of the purposes you would use OS4 for in the future (if everything goes right and OS4 survives), and since that makes this processor unrelevant, so is its price. There are *many* cool (in double meanings) PPC processors that can be used for all thinkable "embedded" devices (which by all means could include devices like this). The MPC5200B for instance (used in Efika and PowerVixen) - this is quite powerful, yet extremely cheap. There are many others as well. And again - there is always the ODW for the current general *desktop users* that remains in this community today.

Quote:

3) I can't get any! (erm... PowerPC hardware for OS4 that is!)

This I'm afraid, has nothing to do with CPU architecture, but has other causes. Those causes would remain even on x86, so a hypthetical migration would not be a solution.

Quote:

I'm sure more people feel similar...

Oh, I am sure. But not more than a few hundreds of people (some thousand tops). That's simply ... not enough!

@elatour
Quote:

350Mbleft of memory out of 1Gb!!!

Memory is a precious resource, as such it's a shame if it gets wasted.

However, the concept of "wasting memory" might be a bit different than what you think: wasted memory is unused memory. That's why modern operating systems use as much memory as they can to hold caches for frequently accessed data, like filesystem data.

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@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

But OS4 is a proprietary OS with *commercial* ambitions, that has to choose a strategy and follow that path. They can't make such huge decisions based on reasons in your point 1. They have correctly turned down any desktop strategy, and will focus on various kind of embedded applications.

Problem is, even in the embedded industry - everything connects to a network or the internet or to something else that does, and Amiga OS4 doesn't have the needed basic features to sell their OS to anyone. Company's that buy an OS look for the OS manufacturer to have some security measures included like a firewall for system security. If they use linux they get those features without any guarantee's so they have to maintain there own IT department for security reasons. You buy OSX or Win$ and they take care of those security features for you. So, why buy the Amiga OS if it doesn't come with even basic features for security? Let alone a device that actually accesses the internet. Amiga OS4 doesn't have a modern Browser or E-mail that the OS manufacturer writes and maintains for security purposes. So, again why buy Amiga OS4 for embedded devices . .

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@minator

Quote:

Also Cell would have been the perfect chip for Apple's high end machines given Apple's pro apps, (a low power version is in development). It also look like there will be a "high end" Cell at some point also.

The Cell, as it is now, is a poor fit for desktop systems. Its performance is lacklustre on code not re-written to make use of the SPUs, the on-board Rambus memory controller has serious issues using socketed memory, and its power consumption is laughable compared to current x64 designs.

But most seriously for a company like Apple, Cell is difficult and expensive to make. Apple's been bitten by IBM failing to deliver before, so there're unlikely to have any faith that supplies will plentiful - and the downgrading of the Cell from 3.2GHz+8SPUs to 2.8GHz+7SPUs indicates that IBM is going throught he same old yield problems as it had with the PPC970.

Quote:

Apple have gained from the deal and the Intel chips are better in many (but certainly not all) areas however I for one am convinced the reason was business, not technical

I'd guess it came down to a mixture of technical and business factors. Intel could offer a near-future guarantee of cheap, plentiful supplies of high-performance low-power chips that span the whole market from multi-socket servers to ultra-light laptops, plus all the support chipsets needed.

PA Semi has never delivered a working product and has only one design planned that would be in any way suitable for Apple. And, unlike Intel, PA relies on an external foundry to fab their chips. That's always going to handicap them compared to Intel and AMD, who control their own fabs.

I hope PA do deliver something very special, but I can see why Steve Jobs was not wiling to bet his company on it.

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@TheDaddy

Sure there are many PPC based motherboard.

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retired

@wolfe

Is there really an "embedded industry", or is each and every embedded application an industry of its own? Maybe you could make it more about a delivered total solution than about hardware and OS? Maybe you are "not selling" OS4 at all, but a custom solution/application that builds upon it, where the customer doesn't know (or care) about the lowlevel stuff?

Link to a different thread (scroll down a bit)

@DrBombcrater

Quote:

I hope PA do deliver something very special, but I can see why Steve Jobs was not wiling to bet his company on it.

Not really aiming to enter the ever-ongoing Apple/x86 debate, but when I saw this line, I couldn't help thinking ...

This is all history now and purely hypothetic, but do you remember the time when there actually was third party PPC Mac's? There were a couple of independent Mac manufacturers, and if my memory doesn't fail me, wasn't Metabox (where Dave Haynie worked for a while, you know, "AmiJoe" etc) originally aiming to make a living from Mac clones? Then, just before they (metabox) were finished, suddenly Steve Jobs re-enter the scene, and surprisingly decides to kill all clones by altering the license in order to forbid any clones, and re-establish the monopoly! A couple of Mac HW companies died or had to change focus in one sudden blow.

My point is - what if Steve Jobs would have *encouraged* Mac clones and competition on the Mac arena back then, instead of *forbidding* it and re-establishing a monopoly? Starting from that point in time (way back) and going forward in an alternative future to present time; what could have happened to the demand of PPC desktop CPU's, and how would the demand and supply of those look today if Steve would have acted the opposite as he did?

Could it be that a true PPC desktop "eco-system" (a flora) would have been established a long time ago already, driven forward by healthy competition, and the demand for Mac's and PPC desktop CPU's in general would have been far greater (hence gained more attention from IBM and Freescale for further development), than it is today?

Maybe a tight isolation and licensing strategy isn't a good idea, and only a way of sweeping away the legs of yourself? (Nodding at Amiga Inc here )

Maybe it's a good idea that everyone present on the platform today starts *collaborating* to create a power.org eco-system now?

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

takemehomegrandma wrote: @Hammer My god, I hope you don't really think I was born yesterday? *I know* there are different processors, and *I know* that there are different flavors of both x86 and Windows. I mean, do you really think I have never seen a "Windows" based PDA? Or QNX on a floppy, or Linux too for that matter? Or that I don't know about this and this, even though I linked to those pictures on the first page in this thread? BTW, can't we just move the x86 discussions to Helgis' "x86 thread"? It's off topic here anyway, and it's annoying to post double ...

I was referring SDK that jives with mainstream IDEs and includes a device simulator (embedded device target)(e.g. Nokia OS/S40/S80/etc) vs AOS (and compatible) competition.

Providing just the OS and rudimentary development ecosystem is not enough when compared to other competing embedded targeted OS platforms.

Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jun-2006 at 04:47 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 18-Jun-2006 at 04:46 AM.

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