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/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
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Poll : Do you agree or disagree?
Yes
No
Not sure
 
PosterThread
Carl-S 
[Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 22:31:13
#1 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2006
Posts: 38
From: REBOLville

In the "AmiWest 2006 - Any reports?" topic, I made this statement:

Quote:
I know quite well what an Amiga is. To me, Amiga is well defined.

Saimo asked me to elaborate, and it would be my pleasure to do so.

Here is my definition of Amiga:

The Amiga is a computer system that enables millions of creative people at a low cost of ownership.

Are you surprised I define Amiga that way? Not in terms of CPU, MHz, bus, chips, or apps? Here's what I mean...

Computer System:
Amiga is a complete system including both software and hardware. You want people to be able to buy the entire package, not just the "kit". For software, from what I've seen, I think OS4 does it quite well. For hardware, I don't care what CPU, as long as it can fully satisfy the rest of the definition below. (Remember that I was one of the main 68000 supporters, but I think the CPU topic is no longer relevant.)

Enables:
This is the action verb. To me this word is more than just the opposite of disable (e.g. Windows), it means to empower. The computer should work for people, not the other way around. (As I've said before.)

Millions:
Do we want just a few Amiga users or do we want millions? I still believe in what we started back in 1985. Millions of users gives us a true marketplace where hundreds of products can afford to be developed, supported, and thrive.

Creative People:
Creative people solve problems. They think. They enhance. The legacy of Amiga is the amazing list of doers, thinkers, artists, musicians, programmers, and even CEOs who have owned and used Amiga over the last two decades. Those are the kind of people you want using your system - not droids. And also, I don't just mean creative users, I am also talking about creative developers and entrepreneurs who make it possible from the start.

Low Cost:
This has always been an important component of the Amiga dream. We want schools, families, community orgs, hobbyests, and small businesses to buy into Amiga. We want the starving artists. We want the young genius or rebellious kid. So, the barrier to entry must be low. In fact, if it were possible to rejuvenate old PC boxes and laptops to make them decent Amigas, I would be for that. (Remember how Linux got started?) There is also more to low cost than just the purchase price... cost includes support.

Final Note
I know that many current users will not agree with all these points (perhaps mostly the last). But, it's important to start with the top level definition. That's how we made the original Amiga. We decided what was most important.

All goals are not equal. If you want to go for the big win, you sometimes have to give up a few lesser desires.

I would love to see the Amiga return someday as a force in the computing arena. I actually think it is possible, as insane as that may sound. But, it's going to require a clear vision and a grassroots unity of purpose.

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ronaldst 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 22:35:03
#2 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 6-Jun-2005
Posts: 495
From: Unknown

@Carl-S

Then an Amiga(tm) isn't being produced anymore. And by looking at the tall order to be one, it won't happen real soon.

Amiga Inc doesn't have billions in bank like Apple does.

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jorkany 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 22:39:58
#3 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-May-2005
Posts: 919
From: Space Coast

@Carl-S,
You left out all the religious aspects, such as it *must* be PPC based, it *must* come only from the current name and/or IP holder of "Amiga", etc.


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Seer 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 22:42:38
#4 ]
Team Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2003
Posts: 3725
From: The Netherlands

@ronaldst

Neither did the original Amiga team (pre C=, one would argue even C= Amiga had it (C= had "plenty" most just seemed to have been put elsewhere).

I partly agree with Carl, but low cost should perhaps be added to. Low cost as in not only the cost of buying the system but also 3rd party programs. Profesional Amiga programs were "cheaper" then Windows/Mac counterparts IIRC.

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saimo 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 22:44:35
#5 ]
Super Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 1990
From: Unknown

@jorkany

You cannot miss a single chance to stir troubles, can't you?!?

saimo

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Hagbard_Celine 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 22:45:01
#6 ]
Member
Joined: 20-Sep-2004
Posts: 48
From: Germany, somewhere West

@Carl-S

Finally somebody who shares my point of view of an Amiga. It is not about the CPU anymore, or any of those discussion, its only about SW and *any* kind of Hardware.

Thats is why I will never understand Hyperion for not porting it to a different CPU.

Port it, thats it, and *BAM*, you have got hundreds of posibilities.



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Carl-S 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 22:45:06
#7 ]
Member
Joined: 22-Oct-2006
Posts: 38
From: REBOLville

@ronaldst

Quote:
ronaldst wrote:

Amiga Inc doesn't have billions in bank like Apple does.


That is not a requirement. Amiga Computer, Inc. was one of the least funded companies I've ever worked for. You can still go a long way. At some point, you partner with others to grow even faster.

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Seer 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 22:48:30
#8 ]
Team Member
Joined: 27-Jun-2003
Posts: 3725
From: The Netherlands

@jorkany

No, Carl cleary said:

Are you surprised I define Amiga that way? Not in terms of CPU, MHz, bus, chips, or apps? Here's what I mean...

and

Amiga is a complete system including both software and hardware. You want people to be able to buy the entire package, not just the "kit". For software, from what I've seen, I think OS4 does it quite well. For hardware, I don't care what CPU, as long as it can fully satisfy the rest of the definition below.

CPU and name are not a given here, Amiga here is a way of doing things in a certain way (as Carl describes, you may or may not agree with that way)

Quote:
All goals are not equal. If you want to go for the big win, you sometimes have to give up a few lesser desires.


Love that one.

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pixie 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 22:51:40
#9 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2645
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@Carl-S

It's a pleasure to see you posting in AW, an Amiga community site, while speaking for myself, I think I'm also speaking also in behalf of others when saying it...

Your work towards what Amiga is/was is greatly apreciated.

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Coder 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 22:51:52
#10 ]
Team Member
Joined: 15-May-2003
Posts: 4523
From: The Netherlands

@Carl-S

OS4 is a nice step in the right direction. I do agree we need low cost hardware. I really hope we will see that low cost hardware this year / early next year. That would really get things moving.

Coder

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saimo 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 22:56:57
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 1990
From: Unknown

@Carl-S

Unfortunately I have time only for a short reply...
In all, I agree.
I'd just like to add that although those should definitely be the final goals, it is obvious that one cannot expect it to happen all of a sudden... otherwise, the road becomes even steeper (if such word exists... no time to check it out...) because of frustration and misguided decisions...

Thanks again,
saimo

P.S.
Quote:
Enables:
This is the action verb. To me this word is more than just the opposite of disable (e.g. Windows)


what a gem!

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ChaosLord 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:02:03
#12 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2005
Posts: 782
From: Houston, Texas USA

@Carl-S

Carl Sassenrath Forever!

Secret hint for future generations of Googlers:
If you have ever wondered where the Sword of Sassenrath came from then this thread holds the answers you seek.

_________________
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Total Chaos AGA

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Bean 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:04:33
#13 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2003
Posts: 1225
From: U.K.

@Carl-S

Quote:
The computer should work for people, not the other way around.


I agree strongly with this point. It's always been a strength of the Amiga, though
I could never put my finger on quite why this is... There are many great apps
on Windows and I can do a lot with it, so that can't be it. Perhaps it's just
that I feel more in control with AmigaOS, even after all these years of working
with the Windows environment.

Question for you: Did you try OS4 or one of the AOS variants at Amiwest? Did it
feel like an Amiga should?

_________________
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RIP my A1XE.. that used to have an appetite for batteries!

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tomazkid 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:08:04
#14 ]
Team Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 11692
From: Kristianstad, Sweden

@jorkany
Consider this a warning!


Quote:
Troll: Trolls show no respect for other people's opinions and deliberately crafts messages to provoke others with the intention of wasting their time and energy or just to cause anger and confrontations. There is no point in arguing with them; their minds are made up. Ignore them, and report the posts immediately to an Amigaworld Team Member.Repeat offenders will be banned.

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AmigaCori 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:08:30
#15 ]
Member
Joined: 27-Apr-2006
Posts: 41
From: Cori - ITALY.

@Carl-S

Quote:
Enables:
This is the action verb. To me this word is more than just the opposite of disable (e.g. Windows), it means to empower. The computer should work for people, not the other way around. (As I've said before.)


I agree with your point of view, and "Enables" point it is the most important point for me.

I got Amiga500 when I was 11years old, and I make homework for school by Amiga in very professional way, my professor didn't belive that a kid with a computer can make so complicate work: pictures, draws and text (foot-note, underline, bold...etc) into same page!

...maybe in 1988 or 1989...

My professor, saw my work in morning at school...and afternoon of same day he got his first REAL computer: Amiga2000.


By the years, I've understand that Amiga is power by simple way.



PS:
It is a pleasure to "chat" with a myth of Amiga history.

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falemagn 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:09:29
#16 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@Carl-S

I was unsure whether to agree or not... I'm mostly not convinced about the integration of software and hardware, as it goes against my essence of "softwarist": I believe what matters more is software, the hardware comes dirty cheap these days and, in my opinion, it should only serve to do faster what you could do with software anyway.

But that being the only thing I don't completely agree with you about, and remembering the good ol' days of when I used to do all kind of stuff with beloved A500, which could do some things faster than even the pentium-based computers that were sold those days - mostly thanks to its hardware - I finally decided to select the "yes" option.

That being said, the other points I believe are more or less covered by existing operating systems already. OSX and Linux (or even *BSD) comes to mind. OSX gives you all the power you need to do things in a easy way and be creative with your computer. Linux comes close, albeit it still needs some more work to overcome the "user has to work for the computer" paradox. Neither of them, though, represents what I personally would really call an "Amiga".

I strongly believe that some form of Open Source is the way to go, for all the advantages it gives in terms of popularity, security, customization and low cost: it just makes sense to leverage the enormous amount of software already written which is out there, rather than go and reinvent the wheel. I'm sure - and I do have some ideas about it which I never really came to realize - that the best of all that there's out there can be picked and mixed with some original ideas to make a product which could be appealing to both geeks and joe users.

It's something that needs time and dedication, not so much funding (although it wouldn't hurt. ) Of course, if it has to be a commercial venture, a proper business model should be thought of, and that's where I believe hardware comes into the equation: get in contact with some hardware producers and bundle the OS plus some killer apps with affordable hardware, and off you go.

These days, though, it's kind of unthinkable to come up with something totally different than the rest out there: the world is dominated by Windows, MacOSX and Linux, therefore being compatible with at least one of them (the most obvious choice would be Linux) is what would make most sense, imo. And with Linux comes, to some extents, compatibility with Windows and MacOSX too.

There'd be so much more to say about this, and the people who know me first hand could tell you that all these thoughts are not something I came up with just tonight.

It's nice to be able to talk with you, if I were still 14 I'd be jumping up and down for the happiness.

Last edited by falemagn on 23-Oct-2006 at 11:15 PM.
Last edited by falemagn on 23-Oct-2006 at 11:14 PM.

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Rob 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:20:38
#17 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5563
From: S.Wales

@Carl-S

I am a current user and fully agree with your points. I paid a lot of money for the privelage of running OS4 and although I have no regrets I would find it difficult to recommend that other people do the same.

If boards such as Samamtha and Efika could be sold a lot cheaper then there could be healty market. Many people don't care about how powerful a system is as long as it does what they want.

With well written efficient applications these boards would be powerful enough for most users needs. Put these tiny system in a stylish case and market them as lower power eco friendly devices and we could have a winner.

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Plaz 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:21:04
#18 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1556
From: Atlanta

@Carl-S

I voted the best I could based on the choices. I couldn't find the one I wanted....

FrickinA! Now we just need some hardware platforms.

And props to all the coders and hardware developers who have hung in there to keep that spark going. Ok, I think I'm sounding much more mushy than usual, but that's the mood I'm in this week. I'm sure I'll be back to my grouchy self soon.

Plaz

Last edited by Plaz on 23-Oct-2006 at 11:25 PM.

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nbache 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:25:49
#19 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Apr-2003
Posts: 902
From: Copenhagen, Denmark

@Carl-S

A definite yes from me as well.

The only thing I'm reluctant to commit 100% to, is the matter of the cost level. Yes, I do agree there has to be a low threshold or entry level if we should hope to attract masses (in any reasonable definition of the word), but those of us already here will be important in the following years in order to lead the way and help out getting lots of new developers and other creative types started, and what we (many of us, at least) want is power, faster machines than the A1s we have now, more expansion room, etc.

So I hope for a quick start with some attractive cheap machines, closely followed by heavier stuff. Sort of like it happened before, with the A1200 and the A4000 catering each for their own part of the market, and I guess also the A500 and the A2000 in their times.

But all in all, this is probably one of the wisest posts I've seen out here in Amigaland for quite a while. Thank you!

Best regards,

Niels

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Tesla 
Re: [Poll] Carl's Definition of Amiga
Posted on 23-Oct-2006 23:31:33
#20 ]
Member
Joined: 23-Oct-2003
Posts: 80
From: Sweden

For the most part I agree with the stated definition, but at the same time I
must admit that I am loath to agree that the underlying platform is irrelevant.

It might just be because I am interested in processor architecture and think that
assembler is something which all programmers should know (even if they might
not program in it), but I feel that PPC, MIPS and possibly SPARC are a better fit
than x86 (I am not mentioning ARM since I have not yet had the opportunity to
examine it closer).

For many the processor is irrelevant, but for others PPC (or MIPS etc.) is a better
choice than x86 and perhaps that is enough to warrant a moments pause. For me
at least, x86 is the less enabling choice.

All other things being equal, I know I would choose PPC over x86 but, alas, it
seems all other things are not equal - hence the vote for "Not sure".

Well, enough rambling for tonight.

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