@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

I'm not against x86 in any way. I am totally dependant on x86 computers myself, both for professional and recreational things (or perhaps more correct - I'm dependant of the *desktop applications* that Windows offers, and I don't really care about the underlying CPU architecture). I think the x86 is a great desktop/server architecture. And while Amiga definitely can't compete in neither desktop nor server market, I do see the hypothetical point you outline in having the OS running on the x86 architecture. Sure, it wouldn't do any harm, rather the opposite.

How about levelling "bang per buck" hardware issues?

Quote:

Sometimes I wonder if Amigans will never stop chasing what's constantly is out of reach? And I also wonder if Amigans will ever sort out to themselves exactly *what* they are chasing? Many seems to be totally indoctrinated by the MHz-race,

Mhz race died with Netburst i.e. replaced with "Core 2". It’s about IPC, Ghz, watts and price i.e. “bang per buck”.

How about the number of mini-cores (as in the case of GPUs) and multi-cores?

Pure Mhz marketing should be pointed at IBM's PPE i.e. XBOX 360’s L2 cache is clocked half the core speed (1.6Ghz) and PPC G2 era style core** with a long pipeline while advertised Ghz speed is @3.2Ghz.

**In-order front end, dual instruction issue, static branching, relatively small branch tables and 'etc'. Includes shared FP and VMX units.

Quote:

and today's desktop OS's with all their applications, and they seem to apply their vague and highly individual Amiga nostalgia on top of that, and the result seems to be what they *really* want is Windows on x86,(SNIP)

There's no need to "want" Windows on x86 since most Amiga users in this site already owns Wintel box.

Last edited by Hammer on 28-Oct-2006 at 12:32 PM.

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Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@lovely

Quote:

I really think your statements is as your avatar.

Thanks for the compliment. It is an honour to be compared to such a legend like Gianni Agnelli.

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:

No. They more said that it's not possible to compete with windows, and since desktop (and server) is out of reach they will aim for "embedded" instead (which can be anything at all really).

Competition in the “smart” embedded market is not easy since you have several large OS vendors operating in this segment.

OS4 is not even a real time OS for mission critical applications or having an effective JAVA or MONO.NET/ Compact MS.NET framework (for "smart" embedded device).

Furthermore MS Windows CE/PocketPC and Linux are not restricted to certain CPU ISA and MS offers access to OS source code via “shared source” initiative while Linux offers via GPL.

For mainstream developers, the barriers between desktop Windows and Windows CE platforms are relatively minor i.e. VS .NET has full support both platforms (includes virtual Window CE/PocketPC machines).

Last edited by Hammer on 28-Oct-2006 at 12:54 PM.

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Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@hatschi

great! :-p

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@Hammer

I don´t understand your interest in anything Amiga related by judging your posts. Always "Intel has xxx micro", "AMD blablabla", "Amiga lacks xxx thousand things..."

I suppose other members think the same about this, so they don´t reply.

Sorry for my english,
Regards

@Phasor

Never seen Hammer post anything negative against Amiga other then stating facts (Like in this thread, Amiga OS isn't a real time OS so what's wrong with stating it). He mostly gives technical details about hardware. His style is short and to the point and with links most of the time.

I myself however am a bit puzzled why you felt the need to make your first post against this ?

Anyway, welcome aboard (witth the first post that is).

Last edited by Seer on 28-Oct-2006 at 01:43 PM.
Last edited by Seer on 28-Oct-2006 at 01:42 PM.

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Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
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@Carl S

These comments are from someone who has not used his Amiga for a few years, is not still hanging in there (need an X86 to do my work), but could "come back" since I clearly remember the joy of the machine. I would guess there are a lot like me -- still interested, but just listening, watching, and not posting much.

AOS4 is interesting to me because it is a real OS in the sense that it can boot stand alone. I would not be interested in AOS4 on X86 if it was dependant on any other OS such as linux or windows. I would not consider that an OS but just some software on top of an OS. That design would not have potential to "go anywhere", but might have appeal for a short while. However if Amiga DE were fully integrated or a part of OS4, then I can see how that could possibly be called OS5. Rebol could also greatly enhance the Amiga and be the "killer" app that would help sell.

I also would not want XP and Amiga OS on the same machine (like you said, lots of slightly older intel boxes around for free) -- would not want viruses to slip in while connected to the internet with OS4 that could potentially run when I booted to XP. I did notice that AVG FREE antivirus is now available for linux as well as windows -- would be nice if that package was available for Amiga.

I am of the opinion that AOS4 running on any relatively modern platform would be great as long as it was not like Amiga DE (software on top of the real OS and not an OS), or UAE (can get that now for free). But, I have to respect Hyperion's stance also and they seem committed to PPC (but perhaps that is only for 1st release). It would be neat to have a scalable OS (i.e. A0S4) where the same software would compile on a hand held as well as on the desktop and the same binaries would run on either. Currently with windows you have to switch to a different OS for the PDAs -- i.e. Windows CE. If OS4 gets ported to Intel, then the PPC support should also continue -- i.e. support OS4 on multiple platforms.

There may be some advantages in the current approach of targeting specific hardware that could be called an Amiga. Then again, just the software alone could really take off on X86 but there could be a high piracy rate. It would be cool when windows does not boot to be able to boot off of an Amiga CD and recover data (assuming the filesystem could be read by OS4). With OS4 on X86 and PPC the hardware race would be over -- I think that both Amiga and Next lost ground when Motorola could not deliver.

I re-read my last post and it sounded a bit negative -- that was not the intent but just the reality of what happens when people wait a long time for something to happen.

@Carl-S

I voted yes, but is this not already in the plan for AOS5? This became a no brainer for me when Mac moved to Intel for the simple reason that Flash is migrating too. This does not bother me. The few sites that run flash that I encounter are minimal, but my 10 year old son can not enter 90% of the sites he visits.
What I see presently is that we are on PPC and virtually complete except for a modern Browser. If we ALSO migrate to the Intel then we have most of the computer world sewn up. I think that would be a powerful situation. It is too bad that Amiga Inc. don't communicate more. Not that we should have specifics, but have the assurance that there is some strength behind the scenes. We are after all a potent resource of avid beta testers. We are running on blind faith waiting for vindication.
That said even if Amiga or Hyperion threw up their hands and quit. I could still be using this A1XE for the next ten years happily and more happily knowing I was not dangling on a string.
I have only got through the first four pages of this thread on my slow dialup, so forgive me if I am repeating, but then again aren't we all.

Sooner than L8r,
John Paul

@Hammer

Furthermore MS Windows CE/PocketPC and Linux are not restricted to certain CPU ISA and MS offers access to OS source code via “shared source” initiative while Linux offers via GPL.

Yeah, Microsoft's Shared Source initiative fits the title of a famous (hair rock band) Poison song; "You Can Look, But You Can't Touch!"

Sorry, but Shared Source is a joke!!

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@Fransexy who said Quote:

What´s wrong with old computer games?

Absolutely nothing, and in fact I quite like some of them . But when you are aiming beyond our hobbyist niche, being limited to 2D games (and a few old 3D ones) isn't going to cut it for the vast majority of people, who have been brought-up on Play Stations, etc.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@takemehomegrandma who said Quote:

You mean that people ... considers and choose between Windows/Mac and *AMIGA*?!

One of Hyperion's (well Rogue/etc's) arguments was that if OS4 ran on x86, that *Amigans* would be tempted to use Windows for web browsing & other tasks that OS4 lacks in, rather than going to the bother of writing & supporting new software to fill these holes. They therefore concluded that OS4 should stay PPC.

Their argument is mostly wrong for the reasons I have previously given.

_________________
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It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@Carl-S

Quote:

I think OS 4 should remain the focus

Short, sweet, and to the point, but oh so true.
Bill stressed (as did the Friedens to an extent in a Pianet Amiga irc session),
the "value of the community".
Given the value of the work at present and the fact that both parties have a
willing, able, "passionate", and FREE work force available within the current
community, tossing THAT out the window would not be a wise decision from a
business perspective, imo.
Therefore, your statement makes sense on multiple levels.

However, it is my strongest sense that tells me no one is taking advantage of this
work force and using it for the overall benefit of their project and the community
in general. Although issues like NDA, for example, would explain some of this,
ssolie also touched on a key phrase here as well..."lack of trust".
Therefore, we have a bit of a situation where an underlying sense of hypocrisy
festers. The -words- say one thing...the -actions- run counter to the words.

Apologies to all if the above offends anyone.

#6

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This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
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@dg

Quote:

AOS4 is interesting to me because it is a real OS in the sense that it can boot stand alone. I would not be interested in AOS4 on X86 if it was dependant on any other OS such as linux or windows. I would not consider that an OS but just some software on top of an OS. That design would not have potential to "go anywhere", but might have appeal for a short while.

Could you please go into details and actually explain why you think that?

Don't want to put you off since the beginning, but there's an OS out there which contraddicts your conclusions. I'll let you figure out which one it is.

Last edited by falemagn on 28-Oct-2006 at 05:10 PM.

_________________
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system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.”
~~ Henry Ford

@Thread
What about the old rumor that Gateway's sale of
the Amiga IP was contingent on some kind of clause
that AInc never compete on X86 HW?

Might be time for a little PPC fanaticism. However, I
did vote eventually. I have zero interest in windoze.
I'd really want any X86 Amiga HW to be 100% M$
free. I am not even interested in X86 Macs (don't
need to run windoze). It's okay for those who need
to run M$ stuff, but I have zero need for that option.
X 86 is always going to be fundamentally windoze
centric. I'd much preffer that simultaneous OS 4
upgrade/support be continued on both proccessors
should OS 4 end up on X86 eventually.

If OS 4 has to be ported to some other HW, I'd much
rather see it targeted to PS3 or PPC Mac (than the
moldy old retro Pee Cees in Carl's basement - now
that's scarry ).

Last edited by Maczilla on 28-Oct-2006 at 05:40 PM.
Last edited by Maczilla on 28-Oct-2006 at 05:36 PM.
Last edited by Maczilla on 28-Oct-2006 at 05:34 PM.
Last edited by Maczilla on 28-Oct-2006 at 05:32 PM.

@Maczilla

Quote:

What about the old rumor that Gateway's sale of the Amiga IP was contingent on some kind of clause that AInc never compete on X86 HW?

The opposite. Gateway wanted leverage in how it dealt with MS. The patents were good, but a competing OS (in those days, when Win was so lame) would have been even better.

_________________
When replying, please keep it short and sweet, and I will read it. If it is long, I read only the first few lines to decide if I want to read the rest.

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote: Given the value of the work at present and the fact that both parties have a willing, able, "passionate", and FREE work force available within the current community, tossing THAT out the window would not be a wise decision from a business perspective, imo.

To me, that is the critical factor. Is that "workforce" still around? Are programmers, doc writers, and artists still willing to help with Amiga, or have they all moved on.

IMHO, it would make sense to open a lot of the source for community improvement. I'm not talking about traditional "open source" -- which often leads to bloated, difficult to support code -- but a variation that allows significant contributions under the supervision of a few key technical leaders.

Such an approach allows Amiga Inc./Hyperion to control their core IP and guide it down the path they choose... but allows the feature-set to expand and improve much quicker than they can do alone. (Perhaps they already do this. I am learning new things as I spend time here).

This is the approach we are taking for REBOL 3.0. I call it hybrid open source.

For example, why not have someone who programs Amiga OS or OSX write REBOL's interfaces for sound, graphics, windows, etc. on those systems. We cannot do it all.

_________________
When replying, please keep it short and sweet, and I will read it. If it is long, I read only the first few lines to decide if I want to read the rest.

@Carl-S

Well that revelation debunks a conspiracy theory.

I do'nt suppose you can reveal just why Jim Collas quit ?

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I dont suffer from Insanity - I enjoy it

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@Carl-S

Quote:

To me, that is the critical factor. Is that "workforce" still around? Are programmers, doc writers, and artists still willing to help with Amiga, or have they all moved on.

I think they've mostly moved on.

There was a time when, although no-one really realised it then, the community was driving development. From 1994-2001 there was still a strong community, with tons of software being produced. When there was a problem, someone provided a solution, not moaned about it. OS Development might have stood still, but our systems didn't. I hate to be so negative, but the passionate fire was slowly smothered by in-fighting and indecision.

Without sounding like a Petro speech, the momentum that we had was amazing, and if it could have been sustained and properly focused things would be so much better now.

It always depresses me to think of how great things were, and what they've become. I miss a lot of the great people who faded away from the scene.

@Carl-S

A lot of people have moved on but there are quite a few that would come back if they could get hold of hardware. From time to time people arrive on this forum who havn't used an Amiga for years and ask where can I get hardware or what do I need to port my app OS4.

There are also a few that have pledged to port their apps to Amiga in exchange for free hardware, some of these people have already done the same for MorphOS.

Some of the most talented people are part of the OS4 team and should have more time to spend on other projects once OS4 is out of the door.

OS4 depot recently passed the 1200 file mark and it has also been noted that uploads to Aminet are currently on the increase.

I think software development will get a kickstart once hardware is more readily available.

It's good to see the "yes immediately" votes outpace the religious whackos nearly nine times over.

I've heard all the "pro-PPC" arguments and not one of them is founded in reality other than "Amiga, Inc. have not given Hyperion a mandate to make OS4 for x86."

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The problem with AmigaOS on PPC isn't that PPC is big-endian. The problem with AmigaOS on PPC is that PPC is dead-endian.