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PosterThread
gary_c 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 12:21:55
#41 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Mar-2004
Posts: 874
From: Chiba, Japan

@Student_K

Quote:
But it would surprise me if Amiga Inc wouldn't answer to something that could give them revenue.

Then you haven't been paying attention for the last few years. If you have a million or more dollars to invest, they would be interested, apparently, as we learned from some fairly recent court documents. If you are a small-scale hardware producer, actual or potential, interested in running AmigaOS, then experience has shown us that your inquiries are likely to be ignored. There is no clear explanation for this behavior.

-- gary_c

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Hans 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 13:33:33
#42 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@takemehomegrandma

The only problem I had with BBRV's posts was that they were deliberately vague. I struggled to see the link between his linked blog entries and OS4. BBRV then failed to answer my questions (and those of many others) directly. That made his posts seem rather pointless.

I can see how others would be more hostile. If you believe that he will never get OS4 on Efika legally then all his posts would feel like a taunt. Just rubbing salt in a wound.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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adiaux 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 13:52:57
#43 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@Student_K

The point is that there is no point in talking to Amiga Inc about this issue. Genesi is far from the only one who tried this, but that's not really the point either.

Amiga Inc and Hyperion is in a legal battle over who owns, controls and should have the sources to OS4. AmigaInc owns the foundation of OS4; that is OS3.x. The contract gives them the right to buy back Hyperions "OS4-additions" to the AmigaInc IP, and in several occasions throughout the last few years they have proclaimed their ambitions *to do this* after 4.0 is released, and from then on continue all further development of AmigaOS in-house (as is stated on amiga.com as well).

The contract gives Hyperion the right to sell OS4 as stand-alone to BPPC/CSPPC equipped classic Amigas, but I guess there is no need to tell you how limited that "market" is (however, the classic release recently got a "priority bump" as one of the Friedens expressed it). Other than for PowerUP boards they can't go ahead on their own and make money on OS4 based on other (*real*) hardware, since they naturally can't close any OEM deals that includes AmigaInc's IP without Amiga Inc's approval. And they won't get any approval, since Amiga Inc looks at OS4 as *their* property and are quite upset with Hyperion for not handing over OS4 (to quote Bill McEwen himself: "it is more than infuriating"). You see, AmigaInc's stance is that they already have executed the buy-back clause, and also paid the agreed amount of money already. If this is true, then AmigaInc has everything they need in order to do business based on OS4 without Hyperions approval, since they are in full control over their own IP. But of course, the latter would only be true if Hyperion had actually handed over OS4 to AmigaInc, which they *haven't done*! This is what the dispute is about, and don't expect anything to happen in regards to OS4 before this is resolved.

For that matter, don't count too much at a positive resolution at all. AmigaInc is owned by venture capitalists that deals with Intellectual Property issues all day long. That's what they do. The *only* thing they do. Their whole business relies on this; making investments in something in exchange for ownership, stacking up value in the form of property of various kind, get as much control as possible in order to get as much as possible in return when they sell it off, and then they move on. They are experts in IP. Hyperion on the other hand is a small company, a "VOF" on top of that, meaning that the owners are *personally liable* for any and all debts that the company may be subjected to. In my view, two things can happen to OS4 during/after this battle; 1) Amiga Inc's owners gets tired of Hyperion's attitude and decides to bring the big sledgehammer to the battle. They crush Hyperion quite easily, and Hyperions owners will have to sell their houses, cars, and inherited valuables from their parents in order to pay the debts they got from the lawsuit. Reluctantly, the OS is handed over, but only in binary form from those 30+ developers, and after that there will be no-one left to develop OS4 further. Amiga Inc then goes ahead and proclaims whatever-it-is-this-time to be "OS5", and the cheering crowd over at amigans.net and some others will adapt that in an instance as "teh reel!". 2) Hyperion simply continues to refuse handing over the OS, meaning that neither they can make money on OS4 nor can Amiga Inc. The OS is forever in limbo. No further development takes place, since no-one except the few A1 owners and PowerUP users will ever be able to use it. This doesn't cut it for a commercial product. And Amiga Inc goes ahead and proclaims whatever-it-is-this-time to be "OS5", and the cheering crowd over at amigans.net and some others will adapt that in an instance as "teh reel!".

You see how this easily could be a lose-lose situation? So much for this communitys "favourite company" as you put it...

There is no point in talking. Not with Amiga Inc, not with anyone else. It won't change a thing in regards to OS4 not running on any hardware.

But hypothetically, had Genesi tried (and succeeded) to execute the clause in their contract with AmigaInc that gives them the right to continue the development themselves, they could have appointed Hyperion as the entity to continue the OS development, they could use all the Amiga trademarks and logotypes for OS4 and OS4-hardware, and they could even sublicense to third party HW developers like ACube, ACK, and anyone else that might have been interested. In an instant, no hazzle.

But shame on them for even thinking the thought out loud!

There are so many people around here that takes everything for granted (as in Amiga, OS4, HW, everything). People just assume it will always be there; there will always come new hardware, the OS will be developed forever, and everything will be fine and have a happy ending, because it's Amiga, and Amiga can have nothing but a happy ending. It's so easy to be hostile and criticize when you have that naive attitude. Well, there won't be any more "advertising" from Genesi on this site now. And maybe that is a good thing for everyone after all. MorphOS has always been their favorite child, and it seems like MorphOS might be going places again. And there are no signs of any irrational "Amiga Prosecution Complex" over at MorphZone, meaning that the MorphOS part of the Amiga community probably makes a better appearance to companies in the POWER sphere that may get interested...

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Varthall 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 13:52:59
#44 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Feb-2004
Posts: 1559
From: Up Rough

@Hans

I think the same. I have always found his blog posts to be too vague to be worth of note, nothing concrete in there. And I too didn't like that he always preferred to avoid any direct question.

Varthall

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adiaux 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 14:01:03
#45 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@ironfist

Quote:
ironfist wrote:
takemehomegrandma:
Actually, they got one AW.net-member to purchase an EFIKA
and since they were blamed for advertising they donated all
those 199 USD (100 GBP) to AW.net. Note here that 199 USD
is what fairlanefastback paid for the EFIKA. Genesi doesn't
make a profit of 199 USD for each EFIKA sold.


Yes I read that in the mail as well, but on the other hand, what they were criticized for was that they would try to sell Efikas to AW.net users based on OS4 promises they could not keep. From what I read, I think it seems quite clear that fairlanefastback got his Efika for what *it is*, and *not* for some vague OS4 promises (although that certainly would be a bonus ).

Anyway, "apologizing" for selling one single product by handing over the profit to a community site, is quite bizarre IMHO. No-one should have to apologize for selling a product, goddammit! But this whole situation in this community is so bizarre anyway, so why bother getting upset? Anyway, hopefully that move satisfied those who screamed "advertising, burn the witches" at least...

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adiaux 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 14:10:38
#46 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:
If you believe that he will never get OS4 on Efika legally then all his posts would feel like a taunt. Just rubbing salt in a wound.


Yet, getting OS4 on the Efika *legally* would be a prerequisite of course.

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ironfist 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 14:20:22
#47 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2004
Posts: 770
From: Pegasos.org

takemehomegrandma:
I know, I know.. It's a bizarre world we live in. I think this
is a good move from Genesi's side. I have multiple times
told them to just forget the whole Amiga mess. It's not
worth it in business-terms. And they agreed, business-wise
it's suicide to focus on Amiga, however, as you have pointed
out they love the community. Just like the MorphOS community
the developer percentage is extremely high and so is the brand-
loyalty. I think they are better off in the MorphOS community.

There were much hatred there a while ago towards Genesi,
even from parts of the MorphOS Team. But they had the guts
to move on and get back to the negotiation-table. Egos have
done worse for the entire Amiga community the last few years
than all other Amiga-years, combined..

The current mess with Amiga Inc vs Hyperion will only harm
Hyperion, AmigaOS 4.0 developers and users. It won't do
a thing towards Amiga Inc, since they don't do anything
anyway! It will only take a while longer before the venture
capitalists can sell everything off.

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pavlor 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 14:22:24
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@takemehomegrandma

Quote:
Amiga Inc and Hyperion is in a legal battle over who owns, controls and should have the sources to OS4


1) Both (A.Inc and Hyperion) are professionals, they don't discuss their legal problems in public.
2) Genesi claims that it has rights to port and distribute OS4 and even to give the OS4 licence to oher companies (without asking A.Inc or the OS4 team).

Quote:
But hypothetically, had Genesi tried (and succeeded) to execute the clause in their contract with AmigaInc that gives them the right to continue the development themselves, they could have appointed Hyperion as the entity to continue the OS development, they could use all the Amiga trademarks and logotypes for OS4 and OS4-hardware, and they could even sublicense to third party HW developers like ACube, ACK, and anyone else that might have been interested. In an instant, no hazzle.


3) Why do you think that Genesi would be better parent company than A.Inc? Where is the progress of MorphOS? Where is new Pegasos III or Pegasos II? Genesi only offers Efika, fine and small computer, but no real solution for desktop OS.


Back to topic:
I hope that ACube will offer Samantha as notebook (with OS4 of course). There is no such solution on market and it can attract MorphOS and Classic users.

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hatschi 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 14:26:52
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@pavlor

Quote:
I hope that ACube will offer Samantha as notebook (with OS4 of course)


Pipe-dream (sorry).

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pavlor 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 14:43:21
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9578
From: Unknown

@hatschi

Quote:
Pipe-dream (sorry).


No need to be sorry
Are here some technical problems?

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ironfist 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 15:27:33
#51 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2004
Posts: 770
From: Pegasos.org

pavlor:
The Pegasos II is EOL since it's not RoHS compliant and
it would cost way too much to convert it.

The current Genesi focus is the EFIKA and if you would
have read his blog you would know where many of the
EFIKAs are heading. And I'm not talking about the EFIKA
Developer Program
..

They are working on the Pegasos 8641D which could be
nicknamed Pegasos III. I don't know how far they have
come but considering their track record I would be
surprised if they don't get it out. Genesi and bPlan are
well-known in the PowerPC industry and they have a
good reputation.

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hatschi 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 15:33:22
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@hatschi

Quote:
Pipe-dream (sorry).


No need to be sorry
Are here some technical problems?


Not only technical ones, developing a PPC-based laptop for OS4 just isn't viable at the current point:
- development costs are likely to be much higher than for a desktop board
- ROI questionable for such an effort given the small potential market (a few Amigans and some Linux PPC geeks), at least not enough to make a sustainable business from it and sell the product at a reasonable price
- it doesn't make sense to have even more "obscure" hw-products given the size and uncertain future of the OS4/PPC desktop market
- a change in licensing scheme to a more open policy (used Powerbooks?) would make the whole effort pointless/a financial desaster, since nobody would anymore want to buy the expensive custom hardware
- PPC is dead on the desktop

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Hans 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 15:42:33
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@hatschi
Quote:

Not only technical ones, developing a PPC-based laptop for OS4 just isn't viable at the current point:
- development costs are likely to be much higher than for a desktop board
- ROI questionable for such an effort given the small potential market (a few Amigans and some Linux PPC geeks), at least not enough to make a sustainable business from it and sell the product at a reasonable price
- it doesn't make sense to have even more "obscure" hw-products given the size and uncertain future of the OS4/PPC desktop market
- a change in licensing scheme to a more open policy (used Powerbooks?) would make the whole effort pointless/a financial desaster, since nobody would anymore want to buy the expensive custom hardware
- PPC is dead on the desktop


Having said all that, building one myself looks SOOO tempting. The board looks small enough and thin enough that it should be doable to hack together a fairly compact laptop. I'm just lacking in two things: time and money.

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 15-Feb-2007 at 03:43 PM.

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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hatschi 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 15:54:37
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@Hans

Quote:
The board looks small enough and thin enough that it should be doable to hack together a fairly compact laptop.


I never really got the fascination that others have about hacking together laptops from Amiga-hardware. Even using the A600, all attmepts were rather on the bulky side and I would be kind of embarrassed to use them anywhere except from my home...
I'd rather get myself a "stylish" SX-64 for some business meetings. ;)

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Hans 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 16:03:37
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@hatschi

Quote:

hatschi wrote:
@Hans

Quote:
The board looks small enough and thin enough that it should be doable to hack together a fairly compact laptop.


I never really got the fascination that others have about hacking together laptops from Amiga-hardware. Even using the A600, all attmepts were rather on the bulky side and I would be kind of embarrassed to use them anywhere except from my home...
I'd rather get myself a "stylish" SX-64 for some business meetings. ;)


The A600 is bulky compared to this board. Looking at the board, the height of the memory will decide the thickness of any laptop, unless it could be replaced with a 90 degree angle connector. The PCI slot would be out of action, once again, unless a 90 degree connector could be found. It shouldn't be as thick as many of the other laptop hacks out there.

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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Fransexy 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 16:04:25
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2334
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@hatschi

Quote:
I never really got the fascination that others have about hacking together laptops from Amiga-hardware


With comments like this i ask myself if you are really an Amigan

Last edited by Fransexy on 15-Feb-2007 at 04:06 PM.

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

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hatschi 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 16:15:21
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@Fransexy

Quote:

Fransexy wrote:
@hatschi

Quote:
I never really got the fascination that others have about hacking together laptops from Amiga-hardware


With comments like this i ask myself if you are really an Amigan


Don't care really... Would be quite sad however if you are required to adore something ugly as this or that to be a "rael Amigan." ;)

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Hans 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 16:19:21
#58 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@hatschi

Quote:

hatschi wrote:
@Fransexy

Quote:

Fransexy wrote:
@hatschi

[quote]I never really got the fascination that others have about hacking together laptops from Amiga-hardware


With comments like this i ask myself if you are really an Amigan


Don't care really... Would be quite sad however if you are required to adore something ugly as this or that to be a "rael Amigan." ;)[/quote]

Neither of those are what I was thinking of making.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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wolfe 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 17:01:04
#59 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Aug-2003
Posts: 1283
From: Under The Moon - Howling in the Blue Grass

@hatschi

Those are UGLY . . .

_________________
Avatar babe - Monica Bellucci.

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adiaux 
Re: Sam440EP team news
Posted on 15-Feb-2007 17:03:23
#60 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2006
Posts: 1249
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Yeah I know, some people keep saying that, I have heard it many times before. Everyone is "professional" except Genesi, yada yada yada, Genesi is so unprofessional it hurts compared to AmigaInc, Eyetech and Hyperion yada yada yada.

Keep repeating that mantra if it makes you feel better, and please continue to ignore the fact that only Genesi is supporting the POWER development for these OS's, supplying the POWER development center in China with their products, being part of Freescale events around the globe with seminars etc, winning best of show award on Freescale event, taking an active part in the POWER industry, working towards their own custom SoC's, developing desktop machines, blades, servers and thin clients, providing extraordinary customer service for their consumer users, arranging sponsor programs where hundreds of developers receives *free machines* on very generous terms in cooperation with the PPC CPU manufacturers themselves, developing and pushing a new concept of firmware/HAL, setting up mainstream sales channels like directron.com, having themselves as well as their products featured in national press, radio shows and TV shows in several countries all over the globe, establishing a support program for emerging communities in poverty, etc, etc (I have forgotten 80% of what they are and have been doing (I think Genesi should post a "corporate CV" online with all their achievements in chronological order that one could simply just point to in situations like this )). Generally building a company, taking part of an industry movement, and actually doing business and moving ahead on all fronts at once!

Amiga Inc, Eyetech and Hyperion - Well, their joint project was presented in 2001. They scheduled the OS4 release to 1 Mars 2002. The über-hardware "AmigaOne" was released in 2002. In early 2003 Amiga Inc wanted to bring OS4 back in-house. Blam! And boy - *just look at* all their joint achievements since then, how well things have been handled, just look at all the hardware OS4 runs on, look at how OS4 is spread all over the world and the Amiga has been rising again since then! Look at the momentum, look at the industry recognition it has! Ah, THANK GOD for professional companies like these (and AW.net users like pavlor and many others), who *really can show* Genesi and other amateurs how "teh reeel!!11" business should be done, in the *professional* way! And ACK, and Troika! Panda! Oh, how bright the future is for OS4, what good hands our beloved platform is in. It feels so good and secure, thank god for *real* professionalism! It's such a good thing that Genesi goes away (BEGONE! BEGONE!), so that the real professional companies can go on with their professionalism forever, and ever, and EVER!

(pavlor - you didn't happen spot any sarcasm and irony in the post above, did you? Want to continue discussing professionalism among amiga companies, or do you think this is enough? )

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