Poster | Thread |
billt
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 14:56:39
| | [ #201 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 24-Oct-2003 Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA | | |
|
| @takemehomegrandma
Quote:
Do you see the round shaped hole? That is Amiga.
Do you see the green square block to the right? |
Yea. But if you hit it hard enough with a big enough hammer, you can get that green square to go through that round hole. There may be some splintering and tearing involved, but it is possible to see the green square go to the other side of that hole. No, I'm not sure how you'd do the software equivalent of that big hammer, but I do believe that most everything is possible in software, given enough time and programmers to make it happen._________________ All glory to the Hypnotoad! |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
billt
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 15:10:48
| | [ #202 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 24-Oct-2003 Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA | | |
|
| @DrBombcrater
Quote:
I must confess, I don't really understand how the 1682 handles PCIe. It seems to have 24 'serial lanes', some of which are used by on-board devices like the ethernet controllers, with the others being available for PCIe use. It's an interesting and potentially very flexible system, but I've seen references to an upper limit of 8 PCIe lanes which would be rather less than optimal. |
I thought it was limited to 8 ports, and each port could have just about any number of legal PCIe lanes so long as enough SERDES are available. Sharing SERDES with ethernet and other things certainly cuts down how much PCIe you can have, but I'm sure their web site says the 8 limitation on PCIe is for ports, not lanes. That certainly beats the 8641's 2 port max and 8 lanes per port definition._________________ All glory to the Hypnotoad! |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Hans
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 15:11:09
| | [ #203 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 27-Dec-2003 Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand | | |
|
| @billt
Quote:
billt wrote: @takemehomegrandma
Quote:
Do you see the round shaped hole? That is Amiga.
Do you see the green square block to the right? |
Yea. But if you hit it hard enough with a big enough hammer, you can get that green square to go through that round hole. There may be some splintering and tearing involved, but it is possible to see the green square go to the other side of that hole. No, I'm not sure how you'd do the software equivalent of that big hammer, but I do believe that most everything is possible in software, given enough time and programmers to make it happen. |
You could always be a little more gentle and enlarge the round hole so that the square and triangle pieces all fit through. _________________ http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project. https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work. |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Metalheart
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 15:21:04
| | [ #204 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 21-Aug-2003 Posts: 2969
From: Somewhere in the Dutch mountains.... | | |
|
| @Hans
Quote:
You could always be a little more gentle and enlarge the round hole so that the square and triangle pieces all fit through. |
Or maybe some lubrication......
_________________ Theres a time to live and a time to die When its time to meet the maker Theres a time to live but isnt it strange That as soon as you're born you're dying |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
minator
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 15:32:00
| | [ #205 ] |
|
|
|
Cult Member |
Joined: 23-Mar-2004 Posts: 989
From: Cambridge | | |
|
| @Metalheart
Quote:
Or maybe some lubrication...... |
Putting things into holes with a tight fit, forcing them, and now lubrication?
Now all it needs is for someone to say when this board will be big and come onto the market soon...
The smut around here!_________________ Whyzzat? |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
jkirk
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 15:33:18
| | [ #206 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 28-Jan-2005 Posts: 3349
From: Georgia (usa) | | |
|
| @Hans
Quote:
Hans wrote: @billt
Quote:
billt wrote: @takemehomegrandma
[quote]Do you see the round shaped hole? That is Amiga.
Do you see the green square block to the right? |
Yea. But if you hit it hard enough with a big enough hammer, you can get that green square to go through that round hole. There may be some splintering and tearing involved, but it is possible to see the green square go to the other side of that hole. No, I'm not sure how you'd do the software equivalent of that big hammer, but I do believe that most everything is possible in software, given enough time and programmers to make it happen. |
You could always be a little more gentle and enlarge the round hole so that the square and triangle pieces all fit through. [/quote]
comeon guys everyone knows the round hole is bigger on the inside than on the outside. lol_________________ Win•dows: n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical shell to a sixteen-bit patch to an eight-bit operating system originally coded for a four-bit microprocessor which was written by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition. |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
billt
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 15:38:11
| | [ #207 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 24-Oct-2003 Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA | | |
|
| I certainly hope this PAsemi theory comes true for ACK's high-end. Yea, there'd be lots of stuff to do before OS4 really fits on it. But the lack of SMP or 64bit support will never really be solved by any means if there is no hardware to put it on. The why bother because OS4 doesn't do this or that argument is the same as the chicken or the egg debate. Well, if god had fretted about whether to do the egg first or the chicken first, he'd never have created either. Whatever he decided, he did one of them first and the history of the universe now shows that we've enjoyed chickens and eggs for a long time because of it. Putting hardware out there as somethign that OS4 might run on is a needed first step. It's hard to debug SMP or 64bit support without something to run it on, so I think hardware is the more sensible thing to happen first.
As for if SMP is possible on OS4, I'm not worried about that. Even if we don't get true SMP, we can still find ways to make use of additional cores. Maybe something like WarpUP to use the second core as a carefully controlled coprocessor, where things running on it would not be problematic for forbid() situations. How did stuff on the PPC deal with that kind of thing under WarpUP/PowerUP? Some solution was found that worked. Might not have been the most ideal way to run code on another core/CPU, but it was better than just the 68K alone right? We'll never see any benefit of any kind if there's no hardware to do it. Taking this first step allows the OS developers the possibility of figuring out how to do it on the software end, whatever that may end up becoming.
I really hope that whatever ACK is hinting at comes to be. I really like this PAsemi hypothesis. I hope that there is no problems between ACK and the OS4 developers with everything going on. I look forward to seeing what actually happens. _________________ All glory to the Hypnotoad! |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Fransexy
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 16:03:33
| | [ #208 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 8-Jun-2004 Posts: 2334
From: Elche (Alicante), spain | | |
|
| @billt
Quote:
As for if SMP is possible on OS4, I'm not worried about that. Even if we don't get true SMP, we can still find ways to make use of additional cores. Maybe something like WarpUP to use the second core as a carefully controlled coprocessor, where things running on it would not be problematic for forbid() situations. How did stuff on the PPC deal with that kind of thing under WarpUP/PowerUP? Some solution was found that worked. Might not have been the most ideal way to run code on another core/CPU, but it was better than just the 68K alone right? We'll never see any benefit of any kind if there's no hardware to do it. Taking this first step allows the OS developers the possibility of figuring out how to do it on the software end, whatever that may end up becoming. |
That is what i was thinking, something in the line of WarpUP/PowerUP.That isn´t the best solution but could be a fast and initial solution until AmigaOS get full SMP.After all is not the first time AmigaOS run on multicpu system. We made the difficult one, running on 2 different architectures with different speed (68k and powerpc), now with 2 identical cores and the same speed wouldn´t have to be a big problem to find a solution What about one core running petunia an another running Powerpc apps?_________________ No PowerPC, No Fun Make Amiga Great Again |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Metalheart
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 17:21:51
| | [ #209 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 21-Aug-2003 Posts: 2969
From: Somewhere in the Dutch mountains.... | | |
|
| Now, it's monday evening overhere......
Hmmmm.... Where are the ACK high-end system specs ?
Martin
_________________ Theres a time to live and a time to die When its time to meet the maker Theres a time to live but isnt it strange That as soon as you're born you're dying |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Hans
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 17:23:38
| | [ #210 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 27-Dec-2003 Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand | | |
|
| |
Status: Offline |
|
|
billt
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 17:25:32
| | [ #211 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 24-Oct-2003 Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA | | |
|
| @Metalheart
Quote:
Now, it's monday evening overhere...... |
What time is it where Adam lives?_________________ All glory to the Hypnotoad! |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Metalheart
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 17:25:34
| | [ #212 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 21-Aug-2003 Posts: 2969
From: Somewhere in the Dutch mountains.... | | |
|
| @Fransexy
Quote:
now with 2 identical cores and the same speed wouldn´t have to be a big problem to find a solutionWhat about one core running petunia an another running Powerpc apps? |
Yes, that was what I was thinking Even more tasks / applications could be made to run on this 'co-processor'
How about a '2ndCore.library' or something, just like the fpu library's from the 3.1 days....
Martin_________________ Theres a time to live and a time to die When its time to meet the maker Theres a time to live but isnt it strange That as soon as you're born you're dying |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Metalheart
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 17:26:43
| | [ #213 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 21-Aug-2003 Posts: 2969
From: Somewhere in the Dutch mountains.... | | |
|
| @billt
Canada, so... plus six hours or so....
_________________ Theres a time to live and a time to die When its time to meet the maker Theres a time to live but isnt it strange That as soon as you're born you're dying |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Hans
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 17:34:52
| | [ #214 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 27-Dec-2003 Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand | | |
|
| @billt
Quote:
billt wrote: @Metalheart
Quote:
Now, it's monday evening overhere...... |
What time is it where Adam lives? |
Fonthill, Ontario is in the North American eastern standard timezone.
Hans
_________________ http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project. https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work. |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
MoonSire
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 17:40:14
| | [ #215 ] |
|
|
|
Member |
Joined: 20-Mar-2005 Posts: 92
From: Behind the Moon | | |
|
| @Metalheart
Where does it say monday? I can not see that information on amiga.com... _________________ www.EtherealWorld.com |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Shadowolf
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 17:42:19
| | [ #216 ] |
|
|
|
Regular Member |
Joined: 22-Mar-2005 Posts: 137
From: Germany | | |
|
| This is what I got from a distributor about two weeks ago:
>the PA6T-1682M currently is in A2 Revision. > >Production Parts (B revision) >- Tapeout May 2007 >- Samples Aug 2007 >- Fully qualified for production in Q4
>PA6T-182M Prototype A2 - $700 >PA6T-1682M-FCN -> 2GHz - $950 @ 1k >Electra Evaluation Board, PAEV-1682M-001, $8500
And this of course excludes taxes.
If this is the real price for that CPU I am afraid it is bound to fail except for very high-end applications.
Hmm, let's see what else is there. Intel Core(TM)2Duo T7200 2,0GHz 4MB, S 479 - 280 Euro Intel Core(TM)2Duo E6700 2,66GHz 4MB - 473 Euro Intel Core(TM)2Quad Q6600 2,4GHz 2x4MB KL! - 754 Euro
All including taxes of 19 percent and are end-user price.
I do not want to imply that these are any better or even really compareable, or that I would want an Intel instead.
I am afraid however that PA-Semi has to lower their target-prices a little.
|
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Insanity
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 17:46:15
| | [ #217 ] |
|
|
|
Regular Member |
Joined: 7-Aug-2005 Posts: 405
From: Sweden | | |
|
| @Shadowolf
comparing system on a chip with a microprocessor is not really fair, but yes, the price is high. that might be related to the fact that they are most likely not at full production quantities? _________________ Yes I own an Amiga. A non-upgraded A500 that is unpacked once every 3 years.
If you are going to quote me, do so fully or not at all. /Ins |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
number6
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 17:56:50
| | [ #218 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 25-Mar-2005 Posts: 11540
From: In the village | | |
|
| @MoonSire
Quote:
Where does it say monday? I can not see that information on amiga.com.. |
The information came from Adam in this thread in post #32 from May 5, 2007: Quote:
On Monday you will see the actual specification for the board. |
#6
_________________ This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author. *Secrecy has served us so well* |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
Shadowolf
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 18:14:16
| | [ #219 ] |
|
|
|
Regular Member |
Joined: 22-Mar-2005 Posts: 137
From: Germany | | |
|
| @Insanity
Quote:
Insanity wrote: @Shadowolf
comparing system on a chip with a microprocessor is not really fair, but yes, the price is high.
|
Of course this is not fair, it's not really intended to be, just to give a raw picture. But even if you add 200 Euro to the Intel for a full mainboard it just plays in a different league. The 200 Euro for the mainboard are even more unfair then, when making a couple of 100k of them the price for the HW is completely different.
One could put 20 Euro worth of support-chips around the Intel though.
Also my intend was not to discuss the system-price. But if the system is to cost $1500 and the CPU alone costs $950 of it there is not much room left for everything else. Let alone covering development costs for our low-volume market.
Quote:
that might be related to the fact that they are most likely not at full production quantities? |
No, this is what I have been told will be the price for full production units. Notice that the $950 is the price when you buy 1000+.
A good arguing buyer will probably get a way better price.
|
|
Status: Offline |
|
|
billt
| |
Re: AckOne High-End Will Run PA Semi Multi-core Posted on 7-May-2007 18:15:24
| | [ #220 ] |
|
|
|
Elite Member |
Joined: 24-Oct-2003 Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA | | |
|
| @Insanity
Quote:
comparing system on a chip with a microprocessor is not really fair |
The comparison should be between equivalent features. That means you would compare a 1682M to an 8641, or you'd compare them with (x86 CPU + northbridge + ethernet chip + ???). What would that look like in the same quantities? Probably still noticably cheaper on the x86 side.
Now, compare AmigaOS4 hardware on a system-level. Currently we're comparing nothing with nothing, as nothing exists in buyable form today. Compare whatever the highend turns out to be to whatever other things might be available, sure, the high-end is probably a more expensive system. Maybe only a handful of people buy it. Maybe it wasn't worth doing if that's the case. But, from an OS4 perspective, I think it's stilly to compare something that can run OS4 to something that cannot. Sure, a fancy x86 system may cost less, but after spending that money you're just as unable to run OS4 as you were before you spent that money, so I consider that to be a total waste to buy x86 considering the goal is to run OS4._________________ All glory to the Hypnotoad! |
|
Status: Offline |
|
|