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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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PosterThread
eXec 
...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 19-Mar-2009 23:37:38
#1 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

Hi...

As far as I can see, the current situation for power PC architecture does not
look so good as few years before. Apple has gone x86, the biggest PPC
consumer. Since then, nothing is the same on the PPC "scene".
That move was not without a properly planned strategy and the huge evolution
of the x86 architecture in the meantime...

So, I ask Hyperion, is it time to move forward to x86 becouse, it is more than
obvious that it is the currently, and min. for the next decade the only mass
consumed platform. And there is a huge amount of available hardware + it
is obvious that it can lead to mass boom of new OS4.x users.

OS 4.x, with it`s currently clever hardware resources usage philosophy would
be a quite interesting alternative to win/os x operating systems and could get
definitely a completely new dimension.

This post was not mentioned to ignite any type of flame chain reaction
but just a normal question addressed to the Hyperion members of our
best Amiga portal.

Hopefully we`ll get the right answers...


All the best,

D.

_________________
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TheDungeonDelver 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 19-Mar-2009 23:41:58
#2 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 17-Apr-2004
Posts: 807
From: Unknown

@eXec

It was "time to go x86" in 2001 when this ride started; the thing is, Hyperion never had a mandate from Amiga, Inc. or whoever they are to do so. If Amiga, Inc. had said "Port this to Intel/AMD architecture," then they would have by now.

Thing about it is, we don't know the outcome of the court case so there's no telling what's going on any more. For all we know, Hyperion won and are sticking with the underpowered/overpriced A1/Sam boards out of spite or something.

_________________
The problem with AmigaOS on PPC isn't that PPC is big-endian. The problem with AmigaOS on PPC is that PPC is dead-endian.

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jingof 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 19-Mar-2009 23:56:25
#3 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2007
Posts: 492
From: Jingo Fet is from "A Galaxy Far, Far Away"

@TheDungeonDelver

Quote:
For all we know, Hyperion won

Hmm... Is this purely off cuff, or do you think there is evidence to suggest this? Haven't followed it in a while, but I thought the case was still very much ongoing and no where near wrapping up. I'd Love to be mistaken

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PR 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 0:07:47
#4 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1335
From: Suomi-Finland Perkele

@eXec

Very good point. Not as a bad joke but I'll then just drive on top of my A1 and not use OS4,1 anymore. Maybe download then the OS?xx from a torrent just for fun for the pc laptop if anybody reminds me from the existance or just don't bother about it then. Some will try to kill me as just thought that there are actually parts of a pc without Windows but all the offers are at the big shops and the last time I tried to ask for a discount if the guy leaves the WindowsVista aside he laughed at my face, went to another shop, bought the same stuff, same price, throwed the Windows at the other guys feet and told something about customer service so there... Bill Gates in disguise or what?

Just needed the cheap parts for my Amiga from the pc-offeryhingie and allready have two allmighty Vista machines, Yes- I finally gave up some years ago..

So Windows is "free". The machine is just more than half free,
please correct me as I'm wrong.

Some people are still driving with V8-engines as it's much more cooler than to drive with a #put any other messy engine here you hate# Well unique, and the feeling.
I would not go boast to my pc-friend that I've got an 933MhZ Amiga as he has some 2+GhZ or so because he knows an Amiga is faster because it's not a pc .
The first time he laughed at me when seeing windows keycaps on my A1 machines keyboard. How embarrasing!

Well the point is that I have no point;) That is that I have to use this crap new slow pc because there are no good programs for the Amiga now. Soo please... No. ..

Bye.

Last edited by PR on 20-Mar-2009 at 12:14 AM.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 0:10:30
#5 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@TheDungeonDelver

Hopefully , let us pray that the 2009 is the "2001"....
x86 is the only way to go forward now...


:)

All the best,

D.

_________________
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...I do not understand your post. You must be trolling then. Yes, you are a troll.

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jingof 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 0:20:48
#6 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2007
Posts: 492
From: Jingo Fet is from "A Galaxy Far, Far Away"

@eXec

My belief is Hyperion has had their hands tied by a licensing and legal blockade to any x86 port placed there by -- who else.

So, not that your point isn't valid. I agree with it.

But, I don't think anyone needs to tell Hyperion this. It's kind of like pointing out the obvious route, that has a big "no treaspassing" sign in front of it. I'm betting Hyperion would love to do an x86 port, and will do so if/when their hands are legally freed.

Last edited by jingof on 20-Mar-2009 at 12:23 AM.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 0:24:37
#7 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@PR

:) Just few questions...

What`s the current availability of your 933MhZ machine?
What are the costs ?
What if something goes wrong with your mainboard? (malfunction-warranty)

--- compare with following ;

What is the current availability of x86 cpu`s and their price? (compare to PPC ones)
What are the costs?
What if something goes wrong with mainboards/cpu`s? (you mostly get the new ones)

__

The m$ Windows are completely irrelevant in the whole story, i was
speaking only about the availability of the hardware, it˙s price and the
following strategy for the next decade... Weather you (or I) want it, or
not, it`s gonna be a x86 decade...
___

..apropois con keyboard with win logo....if OS 4.x was to be ported to x86,
i`m quite shure that there will be a huge amounts of the keyboards with big
"A" on the win logo key... I hope to buy one of those in soon time! ;)

all the best,

D.

_________________
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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 0:36:07
#8 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@jingof

I agree with you...but this whole agony goes on and on, and on again
since the bankrupcy of C=. And still today, AOS is a highly promising
operating system that has a huge potential to use any of the available
platforms more than the any of the concurrence around. It`s internal
philosophy simply works on the way all operating systems should,
lite and damn fast responsivee So why not use the platform mostly
available at the moment, x86.

Hopefuly someone from Hyperion will drop a line...even undercover..

:)

all the best,

D.

_________________
____
...I do not understand your post. You must be trolling then. Yes, you are a troll.

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PR 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 0:46:05
#9 ]
Super Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2004
Posts: 1335
From: Suomi-Finland Perkele

@eXec

Me too, don't stay up too long for this, and my machines never break-up, sold another extra A1 and one spare cpu so there was good availability, there would be three-four pc:s gone at this time allready so the price ain't so bad. What about the A1200'060 and better the A500? No better price/lifespan for me compared. Allways there is this good help service at least here, never needed a repair... Just stick a sticker to the mainstream caps, the logitech was quite good.

Going to the the other forums. Good Night;)

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jingof 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 0:56:51
#10 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2007
Posts: 492
From: Jingo Fet is from "A Galaxy Far, Far Away"

@eXec


Quote:
but this whole agony goes on and on, and on again since the bankrupcy of C=


Oh.. I totally agree. Sadly, our agony doesn't constitute a legal defense for doing an illegal port.

Maybe when the court case settles, this can FINALLY really happen.

But until then, I don't think any business could justify such a huge expenditure (porting to x86 will be a very large effort) on an illegal porting project.

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Cool_amigaN 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 1:17:54
#11 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2006
Posts: 1119
From: Athens/Greece

Going from ppc to x86 will lead to cheaper and more powerfull hardware in cpu and ram. What else do you think will change? To use the x,y,z device (be it pci add-on e.g TV-Tuner and/or Soundcard, pci-e GFX, firewire, e-sata, usb2.0) you will need drivers! Who on earth hardware manufacure will write drivers for AOS? Will the AOS devs support all kind of devices? NO! Will this lead (the shift from ppc to x86) to braking backwards comatibility in software? Most likely. Not to mention the time that AOS will stall development because of this massive port. There is ppc hardware that can support high cpu hertz, pci-e etc. Hyperion should support that (e.g a 460 cpu SoC).

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Hammer 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 1:58:35
#12 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3846
From: Australia

@eXec

Quote:

eXec wrote:
Hi...

As far as I can see, the current situation for power PC architecture does not
look so good as few years before. Apple has gone x86, the biggest PPC
consumer. Since then, nothing is the same on the PPC "scene".
That move was not without a properly planned strategy and the huge evolution
of the x86 architecture in the meantime...

So, I ask Hyperion, is it time to move forward to x86 becouse, it is more than
obvious that it is the currently, and min. for the next decade the only mass
consumed platform. And there is a huge amount of available hardware + it
is obvious that it can lead to mass boom of new OS4.x users.

OS 4.x, with it`s currently clever hardware resources usage philosophy would
be a quite interesting alternative to win/os x operating systems and could get
definitely a completely new dimension.

This post was not mentioned to ignite any type of flame chain reaction
but just a normal question addressed to the Hyperion members of our
best Amiga portal.

Hopefully we`ll get the right answers...


All the best,

D.

Apple also went for ARM (e.g. iPhone).

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Slayer 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 3:48:44
#13 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2005
Posts: 412
From: New Zealand

I'd rather wait for a completely different cpu than anything available at the moment than see AmigaOS go to that damned path

I don't want ANY of you to use AmigaOS so easily

The AmigaOS will be just fine, what's the rush anyway?

Excuse the briefness of my post, there is so many of these types of threads over the years and most I ignore. They are generally always started by people that want everything for practically nothing in the world and quite frankly it disgusts me.

If everything truely ends up dirt cheap what the hell are you going to spend your money on? I guarantee whatever it is probably isn't very important to anyone else. heh

Last edited by Slayer on 20-Mar-2009 at 03:53 AM.

_________________
~Yes I am a Kiwi, No, I did not appear as an extra in 'Lord of the Rings'~
3x AmigaOne X1000 1.8GHz 2gM RadeonHD7970 AOS4.x
6x other AOS4.x setups

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 4:54:46
#14 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 776
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@PR

Quote:

I would not go boast to my pc-friend that I've got an 933MhZ Amiga as he has some 2+GhZ or so because he knows an Amiga is faster because it's not a pc .


Apples and oranges, of course, but if a new version of Lightwave 3D mysteriously appeared for OS4, I can tell you that my Intel Core i7 920 running Windows would spin circles around anything OS4 runs on. If OS4 ran on IBM's line of Power workstations/servers and supported the Cell/BE, we might see some competition.

Ultimately, it's what you can do with the applications running on the operating system and not the operating system itself that matters.

@eXec

Availability is both the strength and weakness of the x86 architecture. The moment OS4 is released for x86 (or x64) every naive user out there would expect driver support for everything Linux and Windows support. Hyperion is wise to limit their hardware support, but I think they hurt themselves by not making current internals 100% open (without NDA).

Last edited by Trev on 20-Mar-2009 at 04:56 AM.

_________________
Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2
borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
A600/A603
Power Mac G4 QuickSilver/MorphOS 2.6

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ReverseGTR 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 6:56:40
#15 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Sep-2006
Posts: 336
From: US of A, New Jersey

@eXec

Screw x86, if the next OS4.x should evolve to a new platform it should be x64 in the form of Nvidia's Cuda or AMD's Fusion architecture. Seriously, OS4.1's API already supports Radeon GPU co-processing scripts. So they may as well go the whole 9 yards and make OS4 more GPU, or specifically AMD, centric platforms.

To hell with endians once and for all.

Last edited by ReverseGTR on 20-Mar-2009 at 08:16 AM.

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Yssing 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 8:05:36
#16 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Apr-2003
Posts: 806
From: Unknown

@eXec

YAOX86T (Yet an other x86 thread)

BTW the GPU idea seems a lot better.. :)

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AmiDelf2 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 8:05:53
#17 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-Aug-2005
Posts: 329
From: Norway, Oslo

There shouldnt be any discussion on entering x86 at all for Amiga. All Amiga 68k
compatibility would be broken. The way you can use 68k libs will be gone etc.

Why are you so desperate to get AmigaOS 4 or MorphOS to x86??? AROS is there
already. Why don't you x86 people support AROS instead? Because its free? Because
you can run OWB, mplayer, wookiechat on it etc?

AmigaOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.2 does it fine on PPC. Once mac versions of these OS's
is out, the development will increase. I know several Mac PPC users which would gladly
help out MorphOS development atleast.

So, geez.. stop bitching here :)


_________________
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Michal, Amiga user since 1988
amitopia@gmail.com

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 8:14:56
#18 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 776
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@ReverseGTR

x64 (Intel 64 and AMD64), yes.

CUDA is proprietary. OpenCL is a better option. Regardless, Hyperion would need to work with AMD, NVIDIA, Intel, and others to bring OpenCL hardware support to AmigaOS.

Fusion is a buzzword. It's AMD marketing speak for "at the moment, our GPUs aren't as capable as NVIDIA's, so we're optimizing for a shared CPU/GPU environment." In a way, that ties into OpenCL, which is portable in the same sense as OpenGL.

_________________
Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2
borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
A600/A603
Power Mac G4 QuickSilver/MorphOS 2.6

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olegil 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 8:24:46
#19 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5438
From: Work

@AmiDelf2

Agreed.

If Amiga on x86 is so important, why doesn't AROS see more interest?

I honestly believe we can outdo the normal PCs with a new PPC SoC solution within 1-2 years.
Yes, I do. But we NEED to start looking at ways to offload computing to the GPU.

Seriously, why do we need ATIs support for this? It shouldn't be THAT hard to send code and textures to the shaders and use them as generic processors. YES, reading back the results will be slow on CURRENT hardware, but get going on the CONCEPT, and we shall have PCIe within a reasonable time frame.

more than 50% of the 3D capabilities of a brand spanking new PC comes from the graphics card. We can use that graphics card without using the rest of the PC. And needless to say it should be a shared effort across ALL Amiga platforms. This is not a competition.

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ReverseGTR 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 8:31:08
#20 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 13-Sep-2006
Posts: 336
From: US of A, New Jersey

@Trev

You got it, I only mentioned x64 as that seems to be a standard most GPU manufacturers are developing the most CUDA, OpenCL and other advanced parallel computing methods for. Not to mention it comprising of both endians to a greater extent.

As for AMD developing Fusion because their GPUs "aren't as capable as Nvidia's;" I beg to differ in as imo from a more fiscal and technical standpoint its reasonable as they already have the research as well as resources to create CPUs. Nvidia doesn't while they have more sophisticated graphic processing chipsets so creating parallel computing machines that solely rely on their GPUs, ie Tesla makes more sense considering their assets. Nvidia has also dabled in CPU/GPU hybrid architecture with their ARM based Tegra mobile chipset.

I don't know where Intel's Larrabee will lead to though.

Last edited by ReverseGTR on 20-Mar-2009 at 08:32 AM.

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