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      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 23:25:41
#101 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@COBRA

You're right. I don't own an OS4 box. I might have bought a SAM, but I weighed my options, and I decided to spend half the money and get a new motherboard, a Core i7 920, 6GB DDR3-1600, two 1TB hard disks, and a Blu-Ray drive instead. (Already had the other bits.)

I also recently bought a Deneb and Indivision, so I'm not above spending ludicrous amounts of money on Amiga kit. I've also recently spent some money upgrading an old Apha box. I guess it's all about priorities

Speaking of priorities, we're now talking about the scheduler and prioritization. I've aready agreed that recent versions of Windows leave a lot be desired re: user perception.

Quote:

FYI I used plenty of such systems at work before they got upgraded and no, they were nevery nearly as responsive as OS4 on hardware of similar performance.


Me, too. I also designed and optimized the Windows distributions we used. (These days, I'm just a patch jocky. All the real work is in the services the boxes provide.) But really, a vanilla Windows NT 4.0 install with stable drivers should perform quite nicely on a circa 2000 box, even without optimization. Hell, NT4's even quite peppy on my 166Mhz Alpha (which has an integer unit on par with a 100MHz Penitum).

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 23:27:05
#102 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@Hammer

Quote:

One problem, Intel has to battle a creditable 'clone army' i.e. ARM. The X86’s 'clone army' strength will be put to the test against another 'clone army'. ARM is not just another RISC ISA.


ARM is practically ubiquitous. In fact, my iPhone chirped as I was typing that. Really!

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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 20-Mar-2009 23:31:48
#103 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@Hans

Quote:

I didn't realize that. However, it's not available yet. Our best bet is to start support an open-source OpenCL effort, since we lack the resources to do everything ourselves. I really wish that I had more time to work on the RadeonHD drivers, because we need that before any of this stuff can be done.


Have you made any headway on I2C support? I've been in a coding slump lately, spending more time reading, playing games, etc. I was thinking, though, than an open source implementation based on Darwin's I2C subsystem would be good place to restart the project. No need to redesign the wheel....

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 4:22:56
#104 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@eXec

Quote:
We need to go mass wide, wee need new people, new coders, new aplications...
...x86 is giving the opportunity... sad (or event not sad but happy) , but true!


*sigh* I thought Helgis left us...I do know you believe you mean well, but..
So, when was the last time *you*:
- created a new piece of hardware
- started, or were involved in, bringing an OS or complex app to market, and preferably, to success?
- understand the details and work required in porting *anything* to an entirely new architecture, while retaining binary compatibility
- wrote a cross platform emulator
- ported an OS with essentially a volunteer team, to a new architecture
- looked into the amount of money to *produce* hardware, and at what point it becomes reasonable price/board
- had a license and business contract in place allowing you to do only certain things, and violated it entirely, then went to court
?

There are those here that can answer positively to at least 1 or more of the above. Olegil and a few others are among them. What some of you see simply as negativity, is called something else - reality. Or experience. Or both.

No one is disputing the fact it would be nice for us, the *few* desktop users, of OS4, that if right now, we were able to run OS4 on some specific set of x86 systems (no, sorry, it's not 'automatic nor magically going to run on any Dell, HP, Apple, Asus, Tyan, or other board by itself), we'd buy it.
However....add up all the pieces. Really, it's not hard, if you choose to educate yourself a bit first.

Most motherboards have a very limited lifetime they're available for sale in retail or other channels. For x86, perhaps 2 years. Even during that time, there may, and often are, hardware revs, let alone traditional BIOS revs numbering up to 20 or so in some cases.

Porting to another architecture, regardless of however Hyperion choose to interpret the contract they are currently in court over, certainly does not allow for 'and whatever architectures Hyperion decides.'

Let's say, optimistically, such a port will take a year. Oh wait, but who's going to do it? Most of the dev team is volunteer, and the author of Petunia I believe has stated he has no interest in doing a *new* JIT for x86->PPC or x86->68k (or both, for that matter). Hello, AROS. no binary compatibility

What, you say, 'dump all your money into it'? Umm, ok, but Hyperion, or at least HJF and/or Thomas, have already agreed or made statements that don't contradict OS4's current state, on the desktop, as essentially 'hobby'..and is NOT able to compete with Windows, OSX, Linux, today, on the desktop. Not only the OS, and much work has happened there, but thee is yet more to do, really...but the apps. Send an IM to your buddies on Yahoo Instant Messenger? Nope. How about Voice over IP, or Skype? Nope. Browsing *and* downloading, from modern sites? Not yet (but this is getting there, perhaps another year..?) Open the Office document your co-worker or friend sent? Nope. USB2? Not yet. Plug in a webcam and have it be 'plug and play'? Nope.

Do I really need to go on? And no, 'something runs on x86 on Windows or Linux, therefore we'd have all these easy to port apps' doesn't work, no matter how amusing it when someone thinks because something 'runs on some PPC OS,' it's somehow any easier whatsoever to port to OS4. Take a look at FireFox and apache Portable Runtimes, and take a good look at their cross platform code in it..it's all about the APIs, of which OS4 and related barely even have some *partial* level of POSIX. UI? Forget it.

Now, let's throw in *why* Hyperion might port to x86, or < whatever > . The os and app 'collection' isn't today, ready for prime time. It has little on the major OSes for desktop use, besides retro affections. No, size isn't really an issue either, see damnsmalllinux and then come back to talk. There are some advantages, like UI reaction/speed, but there are also alternatives to X, OSX, and Windows full blow UI as well.

So..it's a large task to port, you may not wind up with binary compatibility, and there are no killer must have apps for anyone outside of the currently *very* small 'former Amiga user market.' So, let's say it'll 'only' cost a million to port completely to x86, to let's say, the current gen MacBook, and some random Dell/HP/whatever desktop, in a years time. By the time it's done, the only source soon enough is the used market. Yes, that's ok for users, but it's also been a moving target with several hardware revs. And in the end....whatever the original goal, for some non desktop potential....x86 isn't there. Now you've got to maintain both PPC as well as x86, times the number of machines (classic, A1SE, A1Xe, micro, Peg2, the macbook and some other desktop), and you still don't have a compelling app story. Sure, you'll sell some to the curious, let's say you even sell 1000. Now, ready for some math - in order to get an x86 port done in 'only a year,' it's cost you ~8 fulltime devs at ~80k/yr ($640,000), and purchasing additional contract work for say, the JIT, and some drivers. So let's even lower the cost to do this in a reasonable vs 'hobby dev time.' Let's say 750k. 1000 sales, many of which will try then discard, or still not be able to run it on 'the hardware they DO have.' (yes, once base x86 port is done, drivers can certainly be done for other systems, but..not yet...). You've got 100,000 in sales, and you're now out 'only' 650,000. Only 6500 more sales, of an OS without killer apps, or even app 'equivalence' to Linux, OSX, or Windows...

Suddenly, you're *really* hoping that you still have that PPC port up to date, and some interesting NON desktop device may bail you out, or perhaps, you've ported instead, to something that MAY give you a chance at a real number of sales?

I'm sure someone will argue that it should take less than a year to port to x86, with a working JIT/emulation. And find other issues here...perceived or real. Either way, the math *still* doesn't add up.

ARM? X-Scale? Maybe. Olegil pointed out current ARM speed, but also, yeah, it's going to *likely* increase over time.

Once a port's done...sure, there are other options..document writing drivers, and perhaps open up the HAL enough to selective people, or perhaps anyone, to help get the driver base growing, to support other motherboards. Maybe, eventually, the break-even point is hit, but it'll be a *long* time coming, and require ongoing maintenance and drivers, to ensure it runs on even a *small* number of systems initially. And let's see - check the status of the current graphics drivers...are even *they* optimized yet? Not so much (no disrespect intended towards Hans, he's awesome and is working on updated drivers he's announced previously..) - the real point being, the limited number of active (and often for gratis) developers on OS4, or MOS, or AROS...and without 'killer apps' or at least equivalences, that's a LOT of time and money to be gamlbing with, because a handful of former or current amiga users say - oh, we want it, and it'll take over the world...but it doesn't.

The reality is, there are barely enough people to work on OS4 already, and certainly not enough to *also* be working on a compelling set of apps, even for some basic tasks, to bring OS4 or MOS/AROS to 'app parity' with the real desktop OSes today, but until that's at least *approached*, investing a large sum of money and time into OS4/MOS/AROS as a 'desktop OS to take on the others' just isn't very grounded in reality. It is, however, a good way to commit financial suicide


I'm not saying it can't be done, perhaps as a side project, or better IMO, port to a VM environment *first*, under emulation, which can perhaps sell the emulated environment as a 'dev version' or perhaps even a trial version of the OS, until it runs native on x86, then a (by comparison) quick port to some specific x86 hardware. Are you willing to wait 5 years, because meanwhile, Hyperion at least supposedly, still has some hope off the desktop (don't ask, I can't say and don't know, what..), but either way, 'taking over the desktop world' isn't today in their roadmap? No? Ok, then perhaps you have the 750K to offer them, instead? Or are they simply 'silly' for not spending the equivalent of a TON of cash, to wind up with a very long time frame before they can even break even on it?

I'd still like to see a VM environment, then go from there, but many people's expectations really don't have that great of a grasp on reality, and it's unlikely, especially in today's economic climate, someone is going to invest heavily in a 'desktop OS to challenge OSX/Linux/etc' when most saner minds know that it can not, at least not now, and likely not for some time to come.

ok, rant over...point being, there is more than just 'I want!' or Atheist like blind fanaticism to consider. Re-read Olegils and some others posts, and perhaps you'll at least start to *think* a bit before making assumptions to base theories on, which are quite flawed except for the 'I want' portion.








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Trev 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 6:17:10
#105 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Jul-2005
Posts: 777
From: Sacramento, CA, USA

@wegster

Quote:

point being, there is more than just 'I want!'


Except the whole basis of Western economics is one of us saying "I want" and one them giving us what we want, with a fair and reasonable profit, of course.

If OS4 really is just a hobby, then contracts aside, maybe the whole thing should be opened up, yeah?

Or, if they intend to make a profit, maybe they should start building what their customers want. I guess the majority are happy with what they have now, though, simply because it's different and keeps the legacy flame alive.

EDITS: (I am typo boy.)

Last edited by Trev on 21-Mar-2009 at 06:21 AM.
Last edited by Trev on 21-Mar-2009 at 06:21 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 9:01:04
#106 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3925
From: Australia

@Trev

Quote:

Trev wrote:
@Hammer

Quote:

One problem, Intel has to battle a creditable 'clone army' i.e. ARM. The X86’s 'clone army' strength will be put to the test against another 'clone army'. ARM is not just another RISC ISA.


ARM is practically ubiquitous. In fact, my iPhone chirped as I was typing that. Really!

I use Windows Mobile 6.1 based (ARM) smartphone instead.

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jingof 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 9:11:41
#107 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2007
Posts: 497
From: Jingo Fet is from "A Galaxy Far, Far Away"

@wegster

While I agree with your point that x86 is too etc. etc. etc ( read "impractical" ),

There is still one inescapable truth:

PPC is dying quickly. Forgetting x86, AOS still must move somewhere.

Irony is... First, we had the PPC cores, but no motherboard. Now we have the motherboards, but - soon - no PPC cores. BBRV said it best:

Quote:
bbrv: To survive we need to move on to another architecture.


x86 is a bridge too far. Agreed.

So, we need a shorter Bridge!

Therefore, only 2 questions really matter:

1. How many months before PPC is off the market entirely (or priced in the stratosphere due to rarity)?

2. Which architecture (with reasonable performance and a sustainable future) would be most similar to PPC and therefore cheapest, quickest to migrate to?

Last edited by jingof on 21-Mar-2009 at 09:17 AM.

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wolfe 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 9:17:49
#108 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Aug-2003
Posts: 1283
From: Under The Moon - Howling in the Blue Grass

Ok, let's go Arm. x86 requires too many drivers. Decision made, let's move on.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 9:24:04
#109 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1577
From: Unknown

Quote:

I'm not saying it can't be done, perhaps as a side project, or better IMO, port to a VM environment *first*, under emulation, which can perhaps sell the emulated environment as a 'dev version' or perhaps even a trial version of the OS

This should have been done 6 years ago... MorphOS did it years ago...

ARM isn't a desktop class CPU. x86 is driving the desktop. And it's driving it quite well... I don't see how you simple users would see a difference when using an OS wether it is running on PPC, ARM or x86. Except speed maybe. So what's wrong with going x86 VS ARM ? In both case you say goodbye to compatibility, which should have been done years ago anyway.

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Stephen_Robinson 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 9:34:19
#110 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Apr-2005
Posts: 1991
From: UK

Anyone care what I think?

thought not, but I'm going to tell you anyway.

You know what Dave Haynie said about 2 years ago about x86?

Well I still agree with him.


http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=16943&forum=2#333671

Last edited by Stephen_Robinson on 21-Mar-2009 at 09:56 AM.

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ChrisH 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 9:50:22
#111 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@jingof
I still haven't seen any evidence that PPC is going to disappear. It's used in all the current games consoles (Wii, Xbox360, PS3), and most likely in a vast number of low-power "embedded" devices (e.g. TVs).

So what if Apple don't use PPC anymore? They were a TINY market, hardly worth the bother of Motorola or IBM supplying custom CPUs for (hence why Apple switched).

Last edited by ChrisH on 21-Mar-2009 at 09:55 AM.

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ChrisH 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 9:57:54
#112 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@Stephen_Robinson
The time to switch to x86 was in 2000/2001, when the OS4 plan was thought up. It's now *far too late* to do so, unless you can find a willing millionaire. Read Wegster's post, he says it far better (but longer) than I could.

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pavlor 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 10:13:26
#113 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8618
From: Unknown

@ChrisH

Quote:
I still haven't seen any evidence that PPC is going to disappear. It's used in all the current games consoles (Wii, Xbox360, PS3), and most likely in a vast number of low-power "embedded" devices (e.g. TVs).


I fear that all doubts I wrote will become reality.
You can look at high-end workstation market: In 2000 there were Alpha, MIPS, Sparc, Power, PowerPC, PA-Risc and "x86" architectures. Now, only "x86" and Power (small minority) reamain - I don´t think that IBM will continue Sparc developement. Future of high-end workstations (and thus progress of desktop computers) is bound to x86.

What was original Amiga? Rare, outdated and expensive toy for us zaelots, or cheap top edge technology for masses?

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Stephen_Robinson 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 10:36:13
#114 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Apr-2005
Posts: 1991
From: UK

@ChrisH


Well it's either x86 or nothing.

It's dead then is it?

Still some enjoment to find in it's decline and fall to be found.

Last edited by Stephen_Robinson on 21-Mar-2009 at 10:37 AM.

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Phantom 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 10:52:42
#115 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Aug-2007
Posts: 2047
From: Unknown

Why you are in a hurry?

During 2009 we will see AmigaOS 4.1 for MacMini, and then during 2010-2011 we will see AmigaOS for x86, even in beta stage, so why bother? They already made their decisions.

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Jupp3 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 11:02:12
#116 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1208
From: Unknown

@COBRA

Quote:
None of the mainstream OS'es (Windows, MacOS, Linux) even come close to OS4's responsiveness. When I had some people from work over they were amazed at the fact that applications start within a second, and everything responds instantly, and their jaws dropped when I told them that this is only on an 800MHz CPU.

Did you show them some X11 port, so that they could compare it againist its linux equivalent, to get fair comparison? (by having exactly same source code, going through same API's etc.)

Or did you just show "Program A that does something like Program B"

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Hypex 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 11:46:12
#117 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8970
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Leo

Quote:
As good as it was in 1985, AmigaOS is outdated, doesn't take advantage of new powerful and useful things like multiprocessor, 64bit, Gb of memory,... doesn't provide useful things such as memory protection, resource tracking,...


I agree. Look at AROS, already they have 64-bit and multi-CPU support. Okay maybe it doesn't take full advantage, but they got 64-bit and SMP in before OS4 has. So, forget about any OS4 dual core hardware even, AROS makes AmigaOS4 look bad!

Infact, AROS makes x86 look really good (as if it needed to look any better), only because of what AROS can do by simply running on it. And now they have their own AROS computer. So, AROS is like the closest we have to an AmigaOS on x86, but for those who wanted AmigaOS on x86 will they actually buy this AROS PC? Or will they say, "No! I want to run it on the PC at home! Not buy another computer, the point was to run it on the home PC."

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Hypex 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 11:52:05
#118 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8970
From: Greensborough, Australia

@Leo

Quote:
Did we need a 32bit processor back in 1985 ? The 68000 was chosen over the 6502 still. Guess why...


Because it wasn't a little endian CPU and [6502] and had at least 16-bit [68000] data registers?

Quote:
CPU is not about what you can do/need now, but rather what you have the *potential* to do...


So following on from that, what 128-bit CPU should we port AmigaOS over too?

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Hypex 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 11:57:01
#119 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8970
From: Greensborough, Australia

@eXec

Quote:
Amiga MUST go to x86! It is only way for her to stay alive!After about few thousand of us there will be NO ONE left!


Who'd want to join us? You either are an Amigan or you're not. You can't earn it. It cannot be "bought." You're not lilkely to become one unless you have actually owned an Amiga.

If I didn't own an Amiga, I wouldn't bother with my AmigaOne or AmigaOS4. I wouldn't know, I;d never heard of it, and I wouldn't know the difference. Explains most PC user out there. And unless you are one of them they don't know why and think you should be one of them.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 21-Mar-2009 12:27:10
#120 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@OldFart

Quote:
Yep! You're bloody well right! For our destiny, however much we try to outrun it, is our grave...


As said before, thousand people, thousand thoughts....


All the best,

D.

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