@bernd_afa

Is hard when peple bash you "ad principium", huh?

And BTW people still forget that AROS is also on PPC therefore if aos4 or Mos sinks they still have something updated and supported to make run in their hardware: is that hard to get it that AROS will be your lifeboat in case therefore is wrong to neglect it?

Saimon69

_________________
Scarabocchi Binari - Italian AROS Blog
Binary Doodles - English language AROS Blog

@serk118

Quote:

OS gives the amiga feeling not HW.

That's a recent development. Exec was fantastic in the 80's not because of what it did--UNIX and other operating systems had been doing it for years--but because of how it was marketed. Apart from that, it was a means to an end, the end being access to novel PC (read: personal computer) hardware.

Fast-forward twenty-five years, and Exec hasn't changed much. Semaphores and message queues are still the primary means of synchronization (not necessarily a bad thing, but there are other tools out there), and the linked list still reigns supreme as the data structure of choice (that *is* a bad thing). I'm hoping someone with some OS4 internals knowledge will hop on and correct me re: linked lists.

_________________
Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2
borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
A600/A603

@eXec and ferrels

Yes, surely when your 'arguments' are incomplete, while ignoring others, resorting to name-calling is going to 'win the argument'?

Besides the fact it simply shows you've ignored any but your selected comments from others, not exactly making you look too good..this is not acceptable here:
(ferrels)
Quote:

@Manu Or maybe some more crackers for the parrots!!! LOL

@exec

Quote:

Well, you can`t do anything against morons.

Do I *really* need to explain why?

Quote:

Flame/Attacks: Do not flame! Flaming refers to derogatory, abusive, threatening, sarcastic, rude, or otherwise mean-spirited messages directed at members/users. Be cautious when using sarcasm and humour. Without facial expressions and tone of voice, they do not translate easily over the Internet in posts and may be perceived as flaming. Report the flame posts immediately to an Amigaworld Team Member so that the situation can be dealt with immediately. A warning may be issued depending on the severity of flame/attacks. Troll: Trolls show no respect for other people's opinions and deliberately crafts messages to provoke others with the intention of wasting their time and energy or just to cause anger and confrontations. There is no point in arguing with them; their minds are made up. Ignore them, and report the posts immediately to an Amigaworld Team Member. Repeat offenders may incur an instant banned. Site Netiquette: We share one common ground, we are all Amiga users! Respect other opinions, even though you may not agree. Everyone is entitled to their say, but please do so in a courteous manner. Off-topic posts will be moved to the proper forum, and further action may be taken against repeat offenders. It's easy to flame someone if you disagree, but remember, that type of behaviour is strictly prohibited. We come from different locations, we are a mix of ages, and our backgrounds vary. Take that into consideration before you click the post button. A moment of thought is better than hours of grief. The general rule of thumb is treat others as you would like to be treated.

And finally, it appears time for this one now:
Quote:

Requests from our staff: At any time, if a moderator or administrator makes a request of a user, that user is expected to follow the instructions. We rarely, if ever, challenge our users to do something (usually this has to do with an inappropriate avatar or some sort of aberrant behaviour). However, when it does happen, we expect it to be followed; participate in this site, and you participate in it as a privilege, not a right. You may always PM an administrator or the webmaster to ask questions or file a complaint. However, I place great faith and trust in my staff to do the right thing. Your cooperation is appreciated.

Present your argument, not your flames, and if you expect anyone to do anything other than laugh at you, you may want to actually address posts that are doing far more than 'parroting' or your other claims, and leave the trolling and not related comments elsewhere.

PS - the same applies to *everyone* on the forums, and in this thread - leave the attacks and pointless flames, elsewhere.

Last edited by wegster on 23-Mar-2009 at 09:35 PM.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

Oh dear. I go to sleep and there are three to four pages of posts in this thread that are mostly the same things repeated over and over. Just when I thought that we were getting somewhere.

Ok, one more time, for those who replied to my posts thinking that I somehow missed the obvious:

First the "pro" x86 points:
- There is nothing technically impossible about porting to x86
- It is true that there would probably be some more users if a port to x86 were done because the cost of entry would be lower
- I have no technical reason why PowerPC should remain the platform of choice
- I would personally buy Amiga OS 4.x for x86 if it existed

unfortunately:
- The cost of porting to x86, both in time and money, is high
- The number of extra users would not be all that high
- Likely no income will be coming in during that time
- The OS' feature-set would be stagnant during the port, making it less interesting to potential users once it's done
- The COST of reaching those extra few users would be rather high, as would be the risks
- Lack of income could cause serious cashflow problems leading to bankruptcy, which means the port would never be finished (or it would take much longer, leading to lost sales)


finally:
- PowerPC is not as dead as some claim. People need to think a little more creatively than "a desktop needs a desktop chip"
- There are still likely to be more PowerPC motherboards produced on which Amiga OS 4 could run
- Enhancing the OS makes it more appealing
- Enhancing the OS rather than porting to a significantly different platform would take less time, have fewer risks, and a lower cost to reach customers (even if there are fewer of them

- We don't know what ambitious project Hyperion are spending their time and money on

I'll leave it at that. If people still don't understand what I'm trying to say, they never will. In the end it depends on how dead you think PowerPC is, and how easy/hard you think the port will be (I know that ferrels differs with me on these two items).

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 23-Mar-2009 at 08:17 PM.

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote: Oh dear. I go to sleep and there are three to four pages of posts in this thread that are mostly the same things repeated over and over. Just when I thought that we were getting somewhere. Ok, one more time, for those who replied to my posts thinking that I somehow missed the obvious: First the "pro" x86 points: - There is nothing technically impossible about porting to x86 - It is true that there would probably be some more users if a port to x86 were done because the cost of entry would be lower - I have no technical reason why PowerPC should remain the platform of choice - I would personally buy Amiga OS 4.x for x86 if it existed unfortunately: - The cost of porting to x86, both in time and money, is high - The number of extra users would not be all that high - Likely no income will be coming in during that time - The OS' feature-set would be stagnant during the port, making it less interesting to potential users once it's done - The COST of reaching those extra few users would be rather high, as would be the risks - Lack of income could cause serious cashflow problems leading to bankruptcy, which means the port would never be finished (or it would take much longer, leading to lost sales) finally: - PowerPC is not as dead as some claim. People need to think a little more creatively than "a desktop needs a desktop chip" - There are still likely to be more PowerPC motherboards produced on which Amiga OS 4 could run - Enhancing the OS makes it more appealing - Enhancing the OS rather than porting to a significantly different platform would take less time, have fewer risks, and a lower cost to reach customers (even if there are fewer of them - We don't know what ambitious project Hyperion are spending their time and money on I'll leave it at that. If people still don't understand what I'm trying to say, they never will. In the end it depends on how dead you think PowerPC is, and how easy/hard you think the port will be (I know that ferrels differs with me on these two items). Hans

This is a good well thought out post, so thanks Hans.

Though I do disagree with some of the points. I really don't believe it would be so much harder to port or cause them to go bankrupt to port to x86. At least vs porting to something like PS3 where they have new video hardware/sound hardware etc to think about.


The second thing I would disagree with is "PPC being dead". Now, it might not be totally dead for the desktop as you say, but if you take a step back and say, "Hey we have exactly "1" PPC motherboard for sale and it costs $600+ for 600mhz" , well, to me that's not very good to show PPC is a live.

More than that though is "Laptops". PPC is dead for laptops as far as I know. Staying the course on the PPC route we will have no laptop.

I could care less not keeping up with the "other guys" as far as multicore, billgillion GHZ CPUs, etc, but what bugs me is not keeping up on "what a computer is" and these days it's a laptop.

No Amiga laptop = No real future.

_________________
A3000D (16mhz, 2MB Chip, 4MB Fast, SCSI (300+MB), SuperGen Genlock, Kick 3.1)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back in my day, we didn't have water. We only had Oxygen & Hydrogen, & we'd just shove 'em together

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

"Hey we have exactly "1" PPC motherboard for sale and it costs $600+ for 600mhz"

That statement says even more than I think you meant it to say. And you hinted at with this comment:

Quote:

I could care less not keeping up with the "other guys" as far as multicore, billgillion GHZ CPUs, etc, ...

As a community (and ultimately, the people paying Hyperion to make a product), we should be thinking of performance in terms other than cycles per second. The legacy PowerPC parts used by "current" OS4-compatible hardware represent the earliest stages of that change in focus. The rest of the industry has long since moved beyond the cycles treadmill.

But, that's just a question of hardware design. OS4 itself should and can be relatively system agnostic. It's all modular, but the closed nature of the OS keeps it tied to hardware blessed by Hyperion.

_________________
Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2
borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
A600/A603

@wegster

Sorry, but if anyone is marking me as a "parrot", then I have a moral
commitment to declare him as a moron... I never attacked no one until
I was compared with an animal. I am an Amigist , I always was
and always will be and if this is an official portal of our small, vulnerable,
hobby community, which is placen inside a democratic world, then I have
a right to say my opinion. But there are a self called "elite" members who
have right to name us, "non elite ones" as animals. Instead of being together
we are insulting each other. This self called elitism here is so obvious and
pure that anything out of their point of view is to be spitted onto.

What would happen if i wrote :

"My dear Hyperion, is now time to go ---> Quantum Computing ???

I would receive an mass destruction package from the parrot author via
snail mail ?

What a mass production factory of stupidity here! And only because of one
single idea about an optional x86 port...

We are a unique community , indeed!

All the best,

D.

_________________
____
...administration is for serious people only....

@eXec

I think you missed the point. It's not about your opinion, or expressing it, it's about the TOS items I cited. Actually, I no longer even *know* who started the 'parrot thing,' or who it was aimed at. Regardless, calling people morons isn't exactly helping your argument, while it is against the TOS of this site.

Again, this goes to others as well. Use the Report button if you have issues, versus retaliating in kind, or you're just as guilty as the original poster becoming personal/trolling/flaming/etc.

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@Hans

Quote:

Oh dear. I go to sleep and there are three to four pages of posts in this thread that are mostly the same things repeated over and over

Solutions:
1. No more sleep for you!
2. Put on the same blinders some seem to have when reading/ignoring the content of your posts.
3. Sadly, there is still no 'ignore' functionality on AW..so that's only a 'future' solution

_________________
Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

No, it's not time to move to x86. It's time to improve and consolidate the already mighty OS4. Move to another platform mean to start again from the basics.

_________________
retired

@wegster

Well, kill my account then and there is one amigitian less!

All the best,

D.

_________________
____
...administration is for serious people only....

@eXec
Dont giveup that easy matey you are not alone here
i ask people stop playing Microsofts "monopoly"

_________________
http://aros-exec.org/

http://serk118.blogspot.com/

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

Move to another platform mean to start again from the basics.

We are starting again from the basics for the past 10 years! What is new then?

_________________
____
...administration is for serious people only....

@Trev

I didn't say I was going to develop anything on a PS3 or WII. I was referring to what it would cost Hyperion to port OS4 to the PS3 or Wii if they chose to do so. $11,000 just for the dev kit. That's just the start.

$11,000 USD.....my, what a bargain for a developer pack!

And then Hyperion would be legally bound to pay Sony or Nintendo a percentage of every copy of OS4 sold for that console. It just isn't going to happen.

Sure, I could roll my own OS on a PS3 or Wii, but why would I want to do that? No money to be made there......Be my guest if you feel like developing the "other" OS for a PS3 or whatever. Yellow Dog developed a version of Linux to run on the PS3 and the reason they haven't been sued out of existance by Sony is because Yellow Dog is free and open source. OS4 is not, and will never be free or open source.

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

Though I do disagree with some of the points. I really don't believe it would be so much harder to port or cause them to go bankrupt to port to x86. At least vs porting to something like PS3 where they have new video hardware/sound hardware etc to think about.

We'll just have to disagree on these points.

Note that graphics drivers would still have to be rewritten for x86 since the current ones are written for big-endian machines. And yes, endianness does matter in this case. The first thing that I had to do with my RadeonHD driver was to perform endianness swapping for register reads/writes. This was followed by getting the AtomBIOS parser to work on a big-endian machine (not fun). Fortunately for me, my code has (untested) switches in it to allow it to run on a little-endian machine, if ever necessary...

I don't think that it would be a huge task to adapt the drivers, but little tasks do add up.

Quote:

The second thing I would disagree with is "PPC being dead". Now, it might not be totally dead for the desktop as you say, but if you take a step back and say, "Hey we have exactly "1" PPC motherboard for sale and it costs $600+ for 600mhz" , well, to me that's not very good to show PPC is a live.

Try looking at the availability of the chips, and what's still in development. Not rosy, but still relevant.

Quote:

More than that though is "Laptops". PPC is dead for laptops as far as I know. Staying the course on the PPC route we will have no laptop.

Um, this laptop has a PowerPC processor in it. Not exactly an example of a power machine, but it is a laptop.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@wegster

Sheesh, I think you're taking things way too seriously here! I'm not the only one on here trying to enjoy the discussion and making jokes about parrots and crackers and pieces of 80x86!!!!

I didn't attack, flame anyone, or single out any one person. I didn't even call a single user out by name and call them a parrot. I merely pointed out the there are many on this thread that repeat like parrots the same incorrect information over and over again as to why OS4 cannot be ported to x86. The first argument they stubbornly cling to is endianess. Even members of the OS4 dev team have said in this very thread that they don't believe endianess is an issue (just ask Hans). And why would it be? It didn't stop Microsoft from porting NT to PPC and it didn't stop Apple from porting OSX to x86. I refuse to believe that the OS4 dev team is so mentally challenged that they cannot port OS4 to x86 if Hyperion chooses to do so. I would wager that they're some of the best programmers on the planet.

And plenty of people here have chosen to ignore or listen to what I've said. That's the beauty of free speech. If you don't agree with what I'm saying, then you don't have to read it or even respond. If you feel like responding and engaging me, then that's fine too.

@Hans

Thank you Hans for bring this thread back into focus and calming some people down. Your comments are spot on.

@all

And I apologize if I've offended anyone.

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote: The first argument they stubbornly cling to is endianess. Even members of the OS4 dev team have said in this very thread that they don't believe endianess is an issue (just ask Hans). And why would it be? It didn't stop Microsoft from porting NT to PPC and it didn't stop Apple from porting OSX to x86. I refuse to believe that the OS4 dev team is so mentally challenged that they cannot port OS4 to x86 if Hyperion chooses to do so. I would wager that they're some of the best programmers on the planet.

Endianness isn't a show-stopper, but it would add significantly to the workload of porting the OS because the OS has to deal with the hardware (unlike most applications). For example, Endianness delayed my RadeonHD driver significantly because the AtomBIOS parser code that I had was little-endian only (and ugly too). Writing a parser from scratch was impossible because there was no documentation; the parser was all that AMD released.

Hans

P.S., I'm not actually on the OS4 dev team.

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

@Hans

I still consider you a member of the team, albeit unofficially. It's the end product that's important, not the wrapping!

@ferrels

(Before I start, note that I'm using "you" in the general sense.)

Quote:

And then Hyperion would be legally bound to pay Sony or Nintendo a percentage of every copy of OS4 sold for that console. It just isn't going to happen. Sure, I could roll my own OS on a PS3 or Wii, but why would I want to do that? No money to be made there......Be my guest if you feel like developing the "other" OS for a PS3 or whatever. Yellow Dog developed a version of Linux to run on the PS3 and the reason they haven't been sued out of existance by Sony is because Yellow Dog is free and open source. OS4 is not, and will never be free or open source.

As far as I know, you don't need a license to distribute (for profit or otherwise) an operating system targeting the "Open Platform for PLAYSTATION 3." You may not even need a publisher to distribute other content. At Casual Connect in October, 2008, Sony's George Bain announced that Sony was making the PS2 (yes, "2") an open platform. The interesting bit is this quote:

"Developers no longer need a publisher to distribute games on PlayStation Portable and PlayStation 3."

I'm not sure whether that was a slip, a misquote, or a genuine statement.

Re: Linux, Sony developed a reference implementation, and many distributions, not just Yellow Dog, have used Sony's patches and contributions to run on the PS3.

$11,000 is not a lot of money. It's not like the Friedens are financing OS4 via day jobs at McDonald's (or the Belgian equivalent). EDIT: (Dear God, I hope not.)

Last edited by Trev on 24-Mar-2009 at 01:05 AM.

_________________
Sam440ep-flex 733 MHz/1 GB RAM/Radeon 9250/AmigaOS4.1 Update 2
borked A1200/Blizzard1260+SCSI-IV/Z4+MediatorZIV/Deneb/Voodoo3/CatweaselMk3
more borked A1200/MBX1200z/Indivision
A500/clockport/RRNet
A600/A603