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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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COBRA 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 7:10:46
#381 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@eniacfoa

Quote:
If the Official OS4 was ported to dual core x86 it would be a different story to AROS.


OS4 cannot handle multiple CPU cores, so it's not just a matter of "porting it" to dual-core x86, it would probably require major rework of the kernel and the APIs. Some of you guys seriously underestimate the efforts involved...

Quote:
SAM has nothing going for it...nothing at all. And its a rip off. Only the most die hard amiga fan with more money than sense will buy it. Again, I think almost all of us 'worldwide' would buy a $200-$250 x86 AOS.


So suppose we had AmigaOS4 on x86 hardware, which has hardly any modern applications/games/drivers available, while you can use hundreds of thousands of quality apps and devices/peripherals with other OS'es on the same hardware, those who would buy and use OS4-x86 would not be die-hard Amiga fans? Come on...

If you want OS4 available for cheap, affordable and more powerful hardware, it can be done with far less effort than an x86 port, for example Apple PPC hardware is available very cheap and the porting effort would be orders of magnitude smaller, something even a small company like Hyperion could in theory handle.

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SAY.NO.TO.LIES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 7:12:12
#382 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Sep-2007
Posts: 59
From: Unknown

While recognising that a full scale port project to x86 is unfeasible at this point in time, I suspect there are quite a few Amiga Forever owners who (while baulking at the combined cost of an underpowered, overpriced SAM + OS package) would be quite happy to spend a bit more to get a native copy of OS4.x running on their existing x86 hardware. So, just how many copies of Amiga Forever have been sold???

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paolone 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 8:02:47
#383 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 948
From: Unknown

@eniacfoa

Quote:

If the Official OS4 was ported to dual core x86 it would be a different story to AROS. The ppc camp says oh, you people wouldnt buy it anyway...I completely disagree. Yep at $500 its not going to sell fast. But at $200, maybe $250 I believe most if not all active amiga heads worldwide would run out and buy it as soon as we could. I believe it would generate the most cash through sales hyperion/Ainc have EVER seen...


Sorry, pal, but you're really dreaming. If somebody asks me $250 for a 10-years-old technology-level operating system, the best thing I would do is start loughing so loud, that probably you'd be able to hear me on the other side of the world. Why should I pay $250 for something that AROS gives me for free? Cut down that price to $90-120 and maybe we can still be in business.

AmigaOS on x86 would be simply an AROS with a official name, two or three features more, and nothing else, since every OS4 PPC application would need to be ported to the new platform. Porting to x86 requires an Apple-like strategy that includes deals with hardware vendors, in order to have an "Amiga PC", or at least a draft for a "Standard Amiga PC common platform" which would reduce the amount of drivers to write. This system should also embrace all current technologies and have a clear plain roadmap for its own evolution. Without these things, the best thing you can expect from x86 AmigaOS is what in Italy we call a "Brancaleone army", some sort of un-organized, anarchic and hopeless crowd of code that tries to assault the x86 market, facing off Linux, MacOS and Windows in the closed-source marketplace.

The only thing that allow AROS to live and survive is its open-source nature, which allows it to be adapted, even slowly adapted but adapted, to newer technologies. And, well, to all Amigans that still think that AROS is a mess, I would only suggest to read what the only Amiga printed magazine (Amiga Future)writes about it on issue 77.

Last edited by paolone on 25-Mar-2009 at 08:06 AM.

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 9:15:46
#384 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@paolone

Quote:

paolone wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:

If the Official OS4 was ported to dual core x86 it would be a different story to AROS. The ppc camp says oh, you people wouldnt buy it anyway...I completely disagree. Yep at $500 its not going to sell fast. But at $200, maybe $250 I believe most if not all active amiga heads worldwide would run out and buy it as soon as we could. I believe it would generate the most cash through sales hyperion/Ainc have EVER seen...


Sorry, pal, but you're really dreaming. If somebody asks me $250 for a 10-years-old technology-level operating system, the best thing I would do is start loughing so loud, that probably you'd be able to hear me on the other side of the world. Why should I pay $250 for something that AROS gives me for free? Cut down that price to $90-120 and maybe we can still be in business.

AmigaOS on x86 would be simply an AROS with a official name, two or three features more, and nothing else, since every OS4 PPC application would need to be ported to the new platform. Porting to x86 requires an Apple-like strategy that includes deals with hardware vendors, in order to have an "Amiga PC", or at least a draft for a "Standard Amiga PC common platform" which would reduce the amount of drivers to write. This system should also embrace all current technologies and have a clear plain roadmap for its own evolution. Without these things, the best thing you can expect from x86 AmigaOS is what in Italy we call a "Brancaleone army", some sort of un-organized, anarchic and hopeless crowd of code that tries to assault the x86 market, facing off Linux, MacOS and Windows in the closed-source marketplace.

The only thing that allow AROS to live and survive is its open-source nature, which allows it to be adapted, even slowly adapted but adapted, to newer technologies. And, well, to all Amigans that still think that AROS is a mess, I would only suggest to read what the only Amiga printed magazine (Amiga Future)writes about it on issue 77.


you are again comparing AOS to AROS and that is not a legitimate comparison. the only point I was trying to establish that AROS is not AOS and its not a template for what will happen if AOS goes x86...when I talk of it going x86, im assuming it will be made to support dual core. lets not get into the debate about effort required, we understand its near impossible, I am debating that at $200 it will sell many more copies for x86 than it will attached to the piece of crap known as SAM. you want to get into some argument about whats required, driver issues blah blah...thats not the debate.

You remind me of the apple crowd who said they would never buy an x86 apple. Then apple goes x86 and they all of a sudden have 10 million reasons why it was a good move. I bet if an x86 version was available you'd change your tune real quick and spend a measley $200 to get the next amiga...its nothing like being asked to fork out for SAM... Im not alone either...obviously dave haynie and others have stated they believe it would sell plenty more on x86. You say $120. $200 is not that much more and obvously you understand they need $$$. I think you just want to argue.

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TheDaddy 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 9:17:33
#385 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2005
Posts: 4499
From: Quattro Stelle

@everyone

You people are all nuts!

It doesn't matter if AOS is running on x86, PPC, hydrogen or banana skins...

What matters is the quality and quantity of software (games and applications).

Do you still believe that if we had all the software that other platforms have we would be here arguing about x86 or PPC?

What makes a good system successful is mainly because of the software. You can have the fastest, best looking computer on earth but if there is no software to play with then it's GAME OVER.

If I had every piece of software I need running on OS4, do you really think I would still be using Windows?

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 9:20:00
#386 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1576
From: Unknown

Quote:

you are again comparing AOS to AROS and that is not a legitimate comparison. the only point I was trying to establish that AROS is not AOS

Well... what are the differences then ?
If you ommit 68k compatibility which can be replaced by UAE anyway.

What's more but updated libs that you can find in OS4 but not in AROS ? What more can you do in OS4 that you cannot do in AROS ? What more would you do in OS4/x86 that you wouldn't be able to do in AROS ?

I'm curious now...

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 9:32:49
#387 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:
If the Official OS4 was ported to dual core x86 it would be a different story to AROS.


OS4 cannot handle multiple CPU cores, so it's not just a matter of "porting it" to dual-core x86, it would probably require major rework of the kernel and the APIs. Some of you guys seriously underestimate the efforts involved...

Quote:
SAM has nothing going for it...nothing at all. And its a rip off. Only the most die hard amiga fan with more money than sense will buy it. Again, I think almost all of us 'worldwide' would buy a $200-$250 x86 AOS.


So suppose we had AmigaOS4 on x86 hardware, which has hardly any modern applications/games/drivers available, while you can use hundreds of thousands of quality apps and devices/peripherals with other OS'es on the same hardware, those who would buy and use OS4-x86 would not be die-hard Amiga fans? Come on...

If you want OS4 available for cheap, affordable and more powerful hardware, it can be done with far less effort than an x86 port, for example Apple PPC hardware is available very cheap and the porting effort would be orders of magnitude smaller, something even a small company like Hyperion could in theory handle.


I understand its near impossible...im not under estimating whats required.
SAM isnt going anywhere. That machine has no roadmap for the future. its not a desktop PC. Same goes for apple PPC. maybe it could happen for a lot less effort and $$$ on apple ppc HW, but then what? fall back into oblivion in a few short years? whats the point? those ppc macs are almost worthy of the trash bin right now.

To your die hard fan point, you take it out of context by not including the "has more money than sense". The point is there are many amiga heads that are actually able and willing to pay $200 for next gen amiga. They are not ABLE to spend the small fortune for the piece of #### SAM despite being willing.

My real beef here is that I think amiga inc has burnt blown and wasted more than enough money to have paid for a newer x86 version. They are too busy commiting fraud, paying lawyers and waving around AA2 (and wasting money on) like they have this magical product thats gonna take over the world. Its a piece of crap too. Maybe this wouldn't seem so impossible if Ainc were legit. They are not, its clear.

Last edited by eniacfoa on 25-Mar-2009 at 09:36 AM.

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Hammer 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 9:42:37
#388 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3925
From: Australia

@DrBombcrater

Quote:

DrBombcrater wrote:
@Trev

Quote:
Back to the techincal (and the PS3, because it's my favorite PPC platform right now): A software-based graphics subsystem running on the six available SPEs would surely be faster than any Voodoo card ever produced, and would probably compete quite favorably against the older Radeon cards.*

The PS3 was originally intended to use software rendering running on the Cell. The fact that it shipped with an Nvidia GPU is testimony to the viability of that idea. I've no idea what kind of performance can actually be squeezed out of the Cell, but considering very fast x86 quad cores like the i7 and Phenom II can't even get Radeon 7000 levels of performance, I wouldn't expect too much.

Intel Core i7 8 Core @ 3.0GHz actually beats Intel DX10 IGP...
Refer to http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd285359.aspx

This D3D 10.0/10.1 X86 renderer includes JIT.

SwiftShader 2.01 D3D 9b X86 renderer also includes JIT.
Link

Quote:

And last time I checked the PS3 doesn't permit any access to the GPU whatsoever. It's not just 3D functions that are blocked, there's no 2D acceleration or video memory DMA either.

PS3 game programmers can access RSX via LibCGM layer.

Last edited by Hammer on 25-Mar-2009 at 10:42 AM.

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Troels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 9:51:10
#389 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1974
From: Unknown

As I see it the difference between AROS and OS4 is the level of support it has from the community.
Most people chose to follow the official path and it is very obvious that size of the userbase also had a big impact on the number of software released (compare os4depot.net vs AROS archves).

My guess is that if OS4 had been released on X86 with the same feature set and instead of the PPC version it would have sold 10x more than the current OS4.0+.

When I hear people complaining it's always about price vs performance and availability. Both are very reasonable complaints as we have had a severe lack of hardware since OS4 was released and it has kept the community from growing.

With the SAM board we at least have something available to run OS4 on but I tend to agree that it's price/performance ratio is hard to justify. I will hold the hardcore fans in the fold but will not attract any old Amigans that wanted to give OS4 a try.

Personally I don't give a s*** about whats inside my computer as long as it has acceptable performance.
I DO care about price and ofcourse it has to be available for purchase whenever I feel like upgrading. I think the current OS4 solutions does not live up to my demands and feel going to another CPU architecture might be better for price and availability.

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 9:52:45
#390 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

you are again comparing AOS to AROS and that is not a legitimate comparison. the only point I was trying to establish that AROS is not AOS

Well... what are the differences then ?
If you ommit 68k compatibility which can be replaced by UAE anyway.

What's more but updated libs that you can find in OS4 but not in AROS ? What more can you do in OS4 that you cannot do in AROS ? What more would you do in OS4/x86 that you wouldn't be able to do in AROS ?

I'm curious now...


You want a difference? try perception. Its not viewed as Amiga OS. this is a big one.
from what ive seen, there is hardly anyone on amiga forums who view it as truly part of the amiga OS family.

Like i stated before, last I looked AROS only runs on an old x86 box. Im pretty sure I remember it wouldnt install/run on my dual core E7300. The OS4 x86 version I speak of would support my machine of course ;)

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 10:02:14
#391 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1576
From: Unknown

Quote:

You want a difference? try perception.

See ? there's none... You just woke up and thought it was different. This really shows how objective people are here.

The thing is that perception may be modified...

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COBRA 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 10:02:31
#392 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@eniacfoa

Quote:
SAM isnt going anywhere. That machine has no roadmap for the future. its not a desktop PC


The Sam is exactly what it was made for: a solution to the lack of hardware problem we had before the Sam. And despite being very low end, it does make a very big difference. There's a big difference between not having OS4 available to any hardware in production, and being able to buy OS4 with new hardware currently being produced, so it fills a very big gap in the Amiga market, and allows the user base to grow, until newer and more powerful hardware arrives.

Quote:
those ppc macs are almost worthy of the trash bin right now.


Really? There are a lot of people who use their PPC Macs every day, and they don't think it's worty of the trash bin, they perform really well. There are much more underpowered brand new x86 PC Netbooks on the market, and there's a lot of demand for them.

Quote:
To your die hard fan point, you take it out of context by not including the "has more money than sense". The point is there are many ex amiga users that are actually able and willing to pay $200 for next gen amiga. They are not ABLE to spend the small fortune for the piece of #### SAM despite being willing.


You can get a Sam system for about about the same money (or less) as this towered A4000 on eBay so I'm sure that those Amiga enthusiasts who want a Sam will manage to get one, even if that means saving up for it for a few months. I'm not saying I'm satsfied with the price/performance ratio of the Sam, but it does allow people to get a system with OS4 for less cost than the AmigaOne (especially the Sam-Flex due out this month).

Last edited by COBRA on 25-Mar-2009 at 10:03 AM.

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 10:08:31
#393 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Quote:

You want a difference? try perception.

See ? there's none... You just woke up and thought it was different. This really shows how objective people are here.

The thing is that perception may be modified...


Reebok went broke in a failed bid to change their perception. I dont think you should be involved in the marketing of any products nor should you comment on them.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 10:08:55
#394 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1576
From: Unknown

Quote:

Really? There are a lot of people who use their PPC Macs every day, and they don't think it's worty of the trash bin, they perform really well.

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people who use their 6502 C64 every day as well... so what ?

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COBRA 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 10:13:29
#395 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@Leo

Quote:
I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people who use their 6502 C64 every day as well... so what ?


Do you have a point to make, or are you just trolling?

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itix 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 10:20:16
#396 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3390
From: Freedom world

@eniacfoa

Quote:

from what ive seen, there is hardly anyone on amiga forums who view it as truly part of the amiga OS family.


I know many Amiga developers working on AROS.

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 10:28:13
#397 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:
SAM isnt going anywhere. That machine has no roadmap for the future. its not a desktop PC


The Sam is exactly what it was made for: a solution to the lack of hardware problem we had before the Sam. And despite being very low end, it does make a very big difference. There's a big difference between not having OS4 available to any hardware in production, and being able to buy OS4 with new hardware currently being produced, so it fills a very big gap in the Amiga market, and allows the user base to grow, until newer and more powerful hardware arrives.

Quote:
those ppc macs are almost worthy of the trash bin right now.


Really? There are a lot of people who use their PPC Macs every day, and they don't think it's worty of the trash bin, they perform really well. There are much more underpowered brand new x86 PC Netbooks on the market, and there's a lot of demand for them.

Quote:
To your die hard fan point, you take it out of context by not including the "has more money than sense". The point is there are many ex amiga users that are actually able and willing to pay $200 for next gen amiga. They are not ABLE to spend the small fortune for the piece of #### SAM despite being willing.


You can get a Sam system for about about the same money (or less) as this towered A4000 on eBay so I'm sure that those Amiga enthusiasts who want a Sam will manage to get one, even if that means saving up for it for a few months. I'm not saying I'm satsfied with the price/performance ratio of the Sam, but it does allow people to get a system with OS4 for less cost than the AmigaOne (especially the Sam-Flex due out this month).

/

if your outside of europe the price of the already expensive SAM goes through through the roof. That problem would not really exist if all I had to ship was a small box with a small book and CD/DVD

Comparing SAM to A1 is about as bogus as comparing AOS to AROS.
Spec wise, the A1's didnt look like some radioshack computer from an opporutnity shop when they launched... SAM does.

There are people who use C64's an classic amiga's everyday. just like your mac folk.
that doesnt mean I should build a new computer platform based on 6502's or 68k's. fit for the trash bin simply means - in comparison with current HW - and you know it.

if we go PPC mac, its like we've lit a torch but we are still in the dark ages plus its dead end, we will be in the same position we are now in a short period of time...the fuel in that torch will not last long.

People want horsepower. they want it for games, they want it for creative applications, they want it for many more reasons. x86 can do a much better job providing that horsepower.

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 10:30:55
#398 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@itix

Quote:

itix wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:

from what ive seen, there is hardly anyone on amiga forums who view it as truly part of the amiga OS family.


I know many Amiga developers working on AROS.


I think if most people did view it as a true amiga OS, it would have received much more support. Aren't the AROS people working on something else now too?
sounds like AROS doesnt even do it for them...

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COBRA 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 10:55:00
#399 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@eniacfoa

Quote:
There are people who use C64's an classic amiga's everyday. just like your mac folk.
that doesnt mean I should build a new computer platform based on 6502's or 68k's. fit for the trash bin simply means - in comparison with current HW - and you know it.


So tell me, what is it that you can't do properly on Mac PPC hardware, which is so important to most people, that you can do on current PC hardware?

Quote:
if we go PPC mac, its like we've lit a torch but we are still in the dark ages plus its dead end, we will be in the same position we are now in a short period of time...the fuel in that torch will not last long.


I agree that porting to PPC Mac is not a long-term solution and I'm also not a fan of supporting hardware which is no longer being manufactured, but the fact remains, that even if all the obstacles for an x86 port didn't exist, right now a MacPPC port would be a much better investment than going for x86.

Quote:
People want horsepower. they want it for games, they want it for creative applications, they want it for many more reasons.


No, not all people want horsepower, most people care about what they can do with the machine and how nice it is to use. But now what we're onto this "horsepower" thing, give me some examples of specifically what tasks on a modern computer require the kind of horsepower, which PPCs can't provide.

Last edited by COBRA on 25-Mar-2009 at 10:56 AM.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 11:06:23
#400 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@paolone

Quote:
AmigaOS on x86 would be simply an AROS with a official name, two or three features more, and nothing else,


Yeah, pancakes!



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