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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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DrBombcrater 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:23:46
#421 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Feb-2004
Posts: 1382
From: UK

@Hammer

Quote:
Intel Core i7 8 Core @ 3.0GHz actually beats Intel DX10 IGP...

That's because Intel's IGPs software emulate much of their DX10 functionality. And I would point out that there are no IGPs on the i7 platform so the IGP would have been running its emulation on a much slower processor.

Quote:
SwiftShader 2.01 D3D 9b X86 renderer also includes JIT.

Doesn't matter. It's not fast enough. I have SwiftShader running on a 3.7GHz Phenom II and it loses, badly, to a Radeon 7000 in every test I've tried.

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:24:03
#422 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:
Define a 'lot'. I think thats a perception that they received more orders that they had planned for, but in reality how many machines were sold?...maybe you would have the same situation if there was an x86 AOS, where orders exceed the planned initial demand. I think thats likely. I stated it would generate the largest cash flow through sales Ainc/Hyperion have ever seen (if sold at a reasonable price- NOT $500) and I completely stand by that statement.


Sure, but that's not the only way to sell a lot of copies of OS4, as I was explaining earlier, there are other ways which take much less work.

Quote:
Sure, the crazy die hard gamers have the crazy overclocked water cooled machines, but that doesnt mean most people are still running 600mhz machines either.


Nobody said most people run 600MHz machines, and remember that Mac PPCs are available up to 2+GHz Quad-core G5's.

Quote:
I never meant PPC cant do this or that...


What did you mean then, when you said that "ppc macs are almost worthy of the trash bin"? If they can handle nicely the everyday tasks people do on computers, then what makes them worthy of the trash bin?


I can find a P4 in the bin that handles everyday tasks fine. thats what.
secondly, I said PPC macs were ALMOST worthy of the trash bin. Implying they still have a small amount of time left.

as we both agree, its a waste of time and money - to support a dead end platform.. we will continue to find ourselves at square 1 until we go x86. I know you are saying it would sell more copies on PPC mac than it currently is on SAM and I agree with you there. But most people still have to run out and buy a mac...as opposed to not needing to buy a new computer at all...Perhaps the mac PPC version could be part of the path to financing the x86 version.

You still havent answered the question (which ive asked a couple of time now) do you think that amiga inc has blown, squandered, stolen, pis sed away etc... enough resources for this x86 version to have happened?

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:25:07
#423 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@eniacfoa

Quote:

eniacfoa wrote:
The ppc camp says oh, you people wouldnt buy it anyway...I completely disagree. Yep at $500 its not going to sell fast. But at $200, maybe $250 I believe most if not all active amiga heads worldwide would run out and buy it as soon as we could. I believe it would generate the most cash through sales hyperion/Ainc have EVER seen...


I'm not in any "PPC camp". The question here is do you grow the OS and its capabilities now where it can be done in a reasonable fashion working on it part time, where you have have tangible results, like the milestones of a Classic version, a SAM version, a Peg 2 version, and where work went into a Mac Mini PPC version. Stuff that you can work on part time where you get finished products out the door in a reasonable amount of time and where the updates also enhance the version for your early adopter customers (AmigaOne owners). Where at the same time you still have time for your day job, for your family, and your hobbies.

Or do you stop that and undertake x86 development. Where you have to work on it full time to make any reasonable progress, where your wife will need to work 3 jobs to support the family in the meantime and where when you are done you'll have to sell a ton of copies at $250 each to just break even. And thats just to have it work on one motherboard and antiquated video cards. In the meantime getting hatemail for years from the PPC folks you abandoned that you had recently convinced to buy SAMs to run your OS, which you've had to stop any work on since x86 is such an undertaking.

Quote:
AROS is NOT amiga OS, last i looked it only ran on a crappy old x86 box and from what Ive seen most amiga heads dont view it as amiga OS at all.


What AROS is thats important is that its open source and its stated goal is to be an Amiga-like OS and that it runs on x86. If you want to set directions you simply create a bounty and fund it well. At least its in the hands of the people, you know the folks that keep screaming for x86. Hyperion has pesky barriers like keeping food on the table, making a profit, etc. AROS on the other hand has people working for fun and/or bounty money where they invariably are at a minimum, working at a discount.

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:31:30
#424 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 612
From: Melbourne

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:
If the Official OS4 was ported to dual core x86 it would be a different story to AROS.


OS4 cannot handle multiple CPU cores, so it's not just a matter of "porting it" to dual-core x86, it would probably require major rework of the kernel and the APIs. Some of you guys seriously underestimate the efforts involved...

Quote:
SAM has nothing going for it...nothing at all. And its a rip off. Only the most die hard amiga fan with more money than sense will buy it. Again, I think almost all of us 'worldwide' would buy a $200-$250 x86 AOS.


So suppose we had AmigaOS4 on x86 hardware, which has hardly any modern applications/games/drivers available, while you can use hundreds of thousands of quality apps and devices/peripherals with other OS'es on the same hardware, those who would buy and use OS4-x86 would not be die-hard Amiga fans? Come on...

If you want OS4 available for cheap, affordable and more powerful hardware, it can be done with far less effort than an x86 port, for example Apple PPC hardware is available very cheap and the porting effort would be orders of magnitude smaller, something even a small company like Hyperion could in theory handle.


Every CPU is looking towards multi core. Even GPU. This is the future and without sales and a user base to develop for I don't see how AOS is going to continue anyway.
The Userbase is only going to dwindle more.
At least the H/W base on x86 would be easy to get, cheap and people who still can't afford to partake because of cost can do so as they see a point in developing things for it. You open up the AOS to a mirriad of hardware potentials from DTV to USB 3 devices.
If you or a company decided to design Zorro 4 ULTRA and it was better than anything out there as a communication bus, where do you think it would be most likely to suceed. I can tell you right now, your shiny new ASUS motherboard would suddenly become Zorr4 Ulta ready. It would be suicide to Close spec it to AMIGA H/W only. No money.

At least on the available H/W you have the ability to get a bigger development base. I don't see WHY x86 would kill off anything! it's dying already, we aren't getting morre users to the cause by making it more expensive and less useable.
I seriously can't understand the fuss. It's just a codebase. x86 doesn't make it not AMIGA

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:37:27
#425 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 612
From: Melbourne

@COBRA

Quote:

COBRA wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:
SAM isnt going anywhere. That machine has no roadmap for the future. its not a desktop PC


The Sam is exactly what it was made for: a solution to the lack of hardware problem we had before the Sam. And despite being very low end, it does make a very big difference. There's a big difference between not having OS4 available to any hardware in production, and being able to buy OS4 with new hardware currently being produced, so it fills a very big gap in the Amiga market, and allows the user base to grow, until newer and more powerful hardware arrives.

Quote:
those ppc macs are almost worthy of the trash bin right now.


Really? There are a lot of people who use their PPC Macs every day, and they don't think it's worty of the trash bin, they perform really well. There are much more underpowered brand new x86 PC Netbooks on the market, and there's a lot of demand for them.

Quote:
To your die hard fan point, you take it out of context by not including the "has more money than sense". The point is there are many ex amiga users that are actually able and willing to pay $200 for next gen amiga. They are not ABLE to spend the small fortune for the piece of #### SAM despite being willing.


You can get a Sam system for about about the same money (or less) as this towered A4000 on eBay so I'm sure that those Amiga enthusiasts who want a Sam will manage to get one, even if that means saving up for it for a few months. I'm not saying I'm satsfied with the price/performance ratio of the Sam, but it does allow people to get a system with OS4 for less cost than the AmigaOne (especially the Sam-Flex due out this month).


How?? How did it fill that gap?? There was no hardware before, now there is but no one wants it because it's too expensive, too slow, doesn't suit users needs, is not expandable, can't plug in any real cards they already have.... and there is no seen future for it when it can all be done far better and faster in WinUAE under some other companies OS like Windows. So just how has SAM filled that gap? Just how many more users flocked to AMIGA when they saw the new offering?

The SAM is trying to make another COMPETING computer H/W base in the already developing world of existing fast good cheap H/W bases.
IF it's not trying to compete, just give users a choice to run their OS, WHY not USE the current one and let them use their choice of OS ;)

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:37:49
#426 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@eniacfoa

Quote:
do you think that amiga inc has blown, squandered, stolen, pis sed away etc... enough resources for this x86 version to have happened?


Sure they have. But what has that got to do with Hyperion? The answer is nothing. And (ultimately) this thread is about harassing Hyperion into abandoning PPC and its most recent customers in favor of going full force into x86 instead.

If you want Amiga Inc. to make AOS 5.0 for x86, start a new thread going after them on that!

_________________
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Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:39:49
#427 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:

eniacfoa wrote:
The ppc camp says oh, you people wouldnt buy it anyway...I completely disagree. Yep at $500 its not going to sell fast. But at $200, maybe $250 I believe most if not all active amiga heads worldwide would run out and buy it as soon as we could. I believe it would generate the most cash through sales hyperion/Ainc have EVER seen...


I'm not in any "PPC camp". The question here is do you grow the OS and its capabilities now where it can be done in a reasonable fashion working on it part time, where you have have tangible results, like the milestones of a Classic version, a SAM version, a Peg 2 version, and where work went into a Mac Mini PPC version. Stuff that you can work on part time where you get finished products out the door in a reasonable amount of time and where the updates also enhance the version for your early adopter customers (AmigaOne owners). Where at the same time you still have time for your day job, for your family, and your hobbies.

Or do you stop that and undertake x86 development. Where you have to work on it full time to make any reasonable progress, where your wife will need to work 3 jobs to support the family in the meantime and where when you are done you'll have to sell a ton of copies at $250 each to just break even. And thats just to have it work on one motherboard and antiquated video cards. In the meantime getting hatemail for years from the PPC folks you abandoned that you had recently convinced to buy SAMs to run your OS, which you've had to stop any work on since x86 is such an undertaking.

Quote:
AROS is NOT amiga OS, last i looked it only ran on a crappy old x86 box and from what Ive seen most amiga heads dont view it as amiga OS at all.


What AROS is thats important is that its open source and its stated goal is to be an Amiga-like OS and that it runs on x86. If you want to set directions you simply create a bounty and fund it well. At least its in the hands of the people, you know the folks that keep screaming for x86. Hyperion has pesky barriers like keeping food on the table, making a profit, etc. AROS on the other hand has people working for fun and/or bounty money where they invariably are at a minimum, working at a discount.


people are screaming x86 because they are a - sick of no machine and b - they were less than happy with SAM to put it nicely.

financially my argument here is that Ainc have blown, squandered, stolen and pis*sed away etc...enough resources for this modern x86 version to have already happened.

we all know amiga has no chance with a pathetically sh*tty criminal in charge.
talking about the future of amiga is fantasy whether x86 or ppc no matter.

_________________
In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

http://ozconspiracyhouse.myfastforum.org

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COBRA 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:40:43
#428 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@eniacfoa

Quote:
I said PPC macs were ALMOST worthy of the trash bin. Implying they still have a small amount of time left.


Well, to me it looks like the most CPU-intensive task is handling 1080p HD video. Since HD is a standard which goes up to 1920x1080p and it's only just becoming widespread, I don't think that there will be needs to handle anything higher for the next, say 5-10 years at least. So as long as the hardware in question can handle those, its multimedia performance should be fine. On PC it's a different story, there the OS becomes slower and slower without gaining much useful functions, so you are forced to upgrade your hardware every couple of years if you want to be able to run the latest software.

Quote:
as we both agree, its a waste of time and money - to support a dead end platform.. we will continue to find ourselves at square 1 until we go x86. I know you are saying it would sell more copies on PPC mac than it currently is on SAM and I agree with you there. But most people still have to run out and buy a mac...as opposed to not needing to buy a new computer at all...Perhaps the mac PPC version could be part of the path to financing the x86 version.


I already said this and I'll repeat it: if we had OS4 available on x86 right now, who do you think would want to pay for it, and use it, when there are hardly any applications/games/etc. available, no drivers for up-to-date gfx cards or any other peripherals (printers, scanners, etc.). Anyone who is not a die-hard Amiga fanatic would not even remotely consider spending money on such a system. If you think that would give us significantly higher sales than a MacPPC version, you're wrong.

Quote:
You still havent answered the question (which ive asked a couple of time now) do you think that amiga inc has blown, squandered, stolen, pis sed away etc... enough resources for this x86 version to have happened?


I haven't answered because:
1. I don't know
2. The question is irrelevant - seriously, what difference does it make?

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:44:00
#429 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@SHADES

Quote:
Development DOES cost money, so why put it in to boards/ports that no one/handfull will buy to use! Most can't afford them and can do it (a lot faster) with emulation on a PC running someone elses OS! Keep porting to expensive H/W that DOES require Mega$$ to sell to a userbase that is maybe 1000 ppl is making Development harder and harder and more expensive. It makes no SENSE.

It was a statement to try and understand where you are coming from. I don't understand your thinking, I was trying to explain mine.

I would very much like to know porting to Peg II made development easier. There is no hardware other than whats out there and that can only be SMALL. imagine they applied that way of thinking to x86. Do you think that would have widened their potential user/development base???


If I can develop for Peg 2 for $2000 and get it finished in 4 months, where it will generate more buzz and more users for my hobby market customers, while in the meantime my current hardware partner is working on other PPC hardware like Flex, do I do that, or do I spend $200000 over the next 4 years to make x86, where by the time I am done, no one cares, where I ####ed down the throats of my core loyal customers in doing so? Hyperion knows their limits it would seem and is simply trying to maximize the base as best they can within those limits. x86 is simply too much of an undertaking at this time. Why is this so hard for people to get?

_________________
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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:44:28
#430 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:
do you think that amiga inc has blown, squandered, stolen, pis sed away etc... enough resources for this x86 version to have happened?


Sure they have. But what has that got to do with Hyperion? The answer is nothing. And (ultimately) this thread is about harassing Hyperion into abandoning PPC and its most recent customers in favor of going full force into x86 instead.

If you want Amiga Inc. to make AOS 5.0 for x86, start a new thread going after them on that!


we need to see whats up with the court case 1st dont we?
Hyperion was supposed to give the OS back and amiga was supposed to continue development in-house from there is what ive heard... not that they could 'develop' a cheese sandwich...

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:47:26
#431 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@eniacfoa

Quote:
people are screaming x86 because they are a - sick of no machine and b - they were less than happy with SAM to put it nicely.

financially my argument here is that Ainc have blown, squandered, stolen and pis*sed away etc...enough resources for this modern x86 version to have already happened.

we all know amiga has no chance with a pathetically sh*tty criminal in charge. talking about the future of amiga is fantasy whether x86 or ppc no matter.


Fine, but they should bring their pitchforks and burning torchs to the doorstep of Amiga, Inc., NOT Hyperion. And this thread is addressed to Hyperion. This fantasy land x86 stuff should be lamented on in regard to Amiga Inc. only.

_________________
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steril606 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:47:41
#432 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 11-Oct-2008
Posts: 462
From: Munich/Bavaria/Germany

In my eyes, the best course for the "official" Amiga would be, if Hyperion gets the Amiga name after the court case, ports Amiga OS to something that actually has modern and easy to built hardware, and get a custom Laptop and Desktop unit with the Amiga name slapped on it out.

Like Apple does. Let the Hardware be the dongle for the OS. Sell the whole thing, OS & Hardware, one brand name , "Amiga".

Like in the old days.

This will sell...


x86 or ARM or PPC or MOS6502 or Zilog Z80, who cares...

Remember that every 16bitter of the middle 80ies used the Motorola 68k Chip, so in that respect the Amiga just went the cheapest and broadest available route back then.

All I want is Amiga back on the Map. I wanna be able to order an Amiga for a reasonable price, with modern features, with the name and logo on it, running Amiga OS.

Then I can go off, and showing it to friends and other people getting them interested in the hardware again.


That's all. I, and I guess the rest of the world (especially after Apples switch over to x86) , doesn't give a #### about which CPU is used.

It's all about public image these days anyway. Believe me, the way the Laptop looks where the Amiga name would be slapped on and the image the brand shows off would be 100000x more important than the CPU inside for customers.

Last edited by steril606 on 25-Mar-2009 at 01:51 PM.
Last edited by steril606 on 25-Mar-2009 at 01:48 PM.

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eXec 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:48:26
#433 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso


- PPC desktops are all gone, no more support for them...
- The upcoming decade is a decade of the x86 architecture.
- During the next 5 years, an integration of GPU inside the main
CPU is in avoidable (Larabe).
- Nvidia announced it`s x86 CPU.

Amiga˙s destiny is to go x86! All other courses are too expensive
and unstable on long term period.

All the best,

D.


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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:50:18
#434 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 612
From: Melbourne

@eniacfoa

Quote:

eniacfoa wrote:
@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@eniacfoa

[quote]
eniacfoa wrote:
The ppc camp says oh, you people wouldnt buy it anyway...I completely disagree. Yep at $500 its not going to sell fast. But at $200, maybe $250 I believe most if not all active amiga heads worldwide would run out and buy it as soon as we could. I believe it would generate the most cash through sales hyperion/Ainc have EVER seen...


I'm not in any "PPC camp". The question here is do you grow the OS and its capabilities now where it can be done in a reasonable fashion working on it part time, where you have have tangible results, like the milestones of a Classic version, a SAM version, a Peg 2 version, and where work went into a Mac Mini PPC version. Stuff that you can work on part time where you get finished products out the door in a reasonable amount of time and where the updates also enhance the version for your early adopter customers (AmigaOne owners). Where at the same time you still have time for your day job, for your family, and your hobbies.

Or do you stop that and undertake x86 development. Where you have to work on it full time to make any reasonable progress, where your wife will need to work 3 jobs to support the family in the meantime and where when you are done you'll have to sell a ton of copies at $250 each to just break even. And thats just to have it work on one motherboard and antiquated video cards. In the meantime getting hatemail for years from the PPC folks you abandoned that you had recently convinced to buy SAMs to run your OS, which you've had to stop any work on since x86 is such an undertaking.

Quote:
AROS is NOT amiga OS, last i looked it only ran on a crappy old x86 box and from what Ive seen most amiga heads dont view it as amiga OS at all.


What AROS is thats important is that its open source and its stated goal is to be an Amiga-like OS and that it runs on x86. If you want to set directions you simply create a bounty and fund it well. At least its in the hands of the people, you know the folks that keep screaming for x86. Hyperion has pesky barriers like keeping food on the table, making a profit, etc. AROS on the other hand has people working for fun and/or bounty money where they invariably are at a minimum, working at a discount.

Quote:

people are screaming x86 because they are a - sick of no machine and b - they were less than happy with SAM to put it nicely.

financially my argument here is that Ainc have blown, squandered, stolen and pis*sed away etc...enough resources for this modern x86 version to have already happened.

we all know amiga has no chance with a pathetically sh*tty criminal in charge.
talking about the future of amiga is fantasy whether x86 or ppc no matter.


I agree. It's about done. Your certainly not going to compete with Closed / Developed AMIGA specific H/W. There is too small a userbase to help nearly cover development costs / manufacturing / selling etc. Why not just let the users use the OS on something that is continuing to improve (the x86 H/W base) At least you can now poor that investment that would go in to a competing H/W base, back in to OS development, maybe multi core / multi user or some such and sell your OS as a hobby OS and welcome contribution development from the community.

To me, it's almost as if AINC and co are trying to make it die as quick as possible so they can say, "Hey, amiga is dead but the spirt lives on in our apps" or some such nonsense.

I don't see how x86 H/W has to stop the development of AOS. It ONLY provides the platform, not the Opperating Enviroment. The community here is willing to help fund development of their favourite Computer experience. Maybe AOS can look at using the H/W better than the others. Be more stable, efficient. I don't know how many times I have seen windows go down but I sure am glad it's not used in hospitals as life support. I'm sure many piolts feel the same way flying.

Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 01:51 PM.
Last edited by SHADES on 25-Mar-2009 at 01:50 PM.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:52:09
#435 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@eniacfoa

Quote:
we need to see whats up with the court case 1st dont we?
Hyperion was supposed to give the OS back and amiga was supposed to continue development in-house from there is what ive heard... not that they could 'develop' a cheese sandwich...


No we don't. Amiga claims that OS 5 has been in development for years and was already at a level of being "much better than OS X from Apple" over a year ago. The announcement even made it to mainstream tech newsites. I think its a load of crap. But still, they shouldn't be allowed to have their cake and eat it too. They claim they are at that point and they are the ones with millions from cash infusions from the likes of Prokom that are documented as being so. You want x86, break down their door and demand it. Harassing Hyperion is going after the wrong folks.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 13:55:10
#436 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@eXec

Quote:

eXec wrote:

- PPC desktops are all gone, no more support for them...
- The upcoming decade is a decade of the x86 architecture.
- During the next 5 years, an integration of GPU inside the main
CPU is in avoidable (Larabe).
- Nvidia announced it`s x86 CPU.

Amiga˙s destiny is to go x86! All other courses are too expensive
and unstable on long term period.

All the best,

D.




So support AROS, its the only x86 game in town. Or push Amiga, Inc. to make OS5 for x86 since they have lots of cash. Pushing Hyperion is not going to get you anywhere. Do you at all get that?

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Hypex 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 14:00:12
#437 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 8970
From: Greensborough, Australia

@eXec

Quote:
Amiga is doomed (hopefully not for a long time anymore) with PPC!


I am goint to make a point here. Without the move to PowerPC even the possibility of an x86 AmigaOS would not exist!

Regarding the AmigaOne on PowerPC and AmigaOS4 vs. x86 I do have a point to make here. The PowerPC AmigaOne brings AmigaOS closer to x86! Closer than ever before




What?! Doesn't sound
right? Let me explain, the A1 has a PPC CPU sure, but it also has PC
hardware, parallel, serial, USB, IDE and PCI. This means that it uses PC
soundcards and PC VGA cards. Understanding? Infact, the A1 is really a PC
motherboard featuring a PowerPC CPU. There is even a switch on it that
selects between guess what? PPC and x86. Of course that won't enable OS4
run on x86 by flicking the switch.

It also meant that when I bought a graphics card, sound card, harddisk and whatever else I payed exactly the same as any other PC user. Exactly! And that's gotta count for something.

My point is, although AmigaOS4 doesn't run on x86 directly, it does run
on PC hardware. So it has brought us closer. Sure, we still just can't go
out and purchase a generic motherboard yet. But,
it did enable AmigaOS to run on cheap off the shelf PC hardware. Okay, so
we had Amiga classic PCI cards to do this as well, the A1 combined all
this into one piece of hardware so it let us to do something else. And
that was to use a standard case and not an expensive customised one. So we
loose AGA and that real Amiga hardware, but using PCI cards allowed us to
move on.

So although OS4 doesn't yet run on x86, and it still concentrating on
PPC, it is slowly moving towards x86. Whether people like that or not. And another thing, the OS itself being heavily tied to a big endian CPU, needed a big transition even to run on the same endian PPC. But, the coders rewrote as much as possible in C. That's right, portable C. Even things like interrupt conventions are now made in a C model to avoid assembly stubs. So AmigaOS being ported from 68k to PowerPC as it has been actually helps if an x86 port happened in the future.

And right now an x86 AmigaOS would have less features than AmigaOS4! Forget IconEdit. Forget Arexx. And whatever else is still 68k because Hyperion had to go direct from 3.1 to 4.0 without a 3.9 codebase to work off. Remember OS4 is not full C yet. It still has 68k parts like the real MacOS did.

So imagine going from AmigaOS 68k to x86. "When it's done" would have been ten years later! No OS4 for real Amigas. No OS4 for interrmediate Amiga replacements. Nothing for us to play with until it was finished and by then would we still be waiting for anythhng.?

BTW, people seem to blame Amiga from time to time, Despute then programming for x86 themselves. And even when I spoke to him at the A2k show directly he wanted to know what the thing was with PowerPC. I told him from a programmers perspective, the technical side, why it was a bad move. And real OS4 programmers actually testify to those points I made years ago!

Another thing, you should praise Amiga! When they first announced AmigaOS4, it was a delvelopers pre-release on x86!! Did you all forget? You wanted what Amiga did but it didn't happen. How about that!

Last edited by Hypex on 25-Mar-2009 at 02:05 PM.

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fairlanefastback 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 14:00:23
#438 ]
Team Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2005
Posts: 4874
From: New York, USA

@SHADES

Quote:
don't see how x86 H/W has to stop the development of AOS. It ONLY provides the platform, not the Opperating Enviroment. The community here is willing to help fund development of their favourite Computer experience. Maybe AOS can look at using the H/W better than the others. Be more stable, efficient. I don't know how many times I have seen windows go down but I sure am glad it's not used in hospitals as life support. I'm sure many piolts feel the same way flying.


Is Rogue and his brother supposed to borrow a bunch of Santa's elves to help port the OS, port all the apps, write all the drivers to support a *VARIETY* of x86 hardware (instead of just one mainboard, with one or two families of graphics cards)?

You people imagine that porting to x86 means you'll be able to run it on anything x86 based. Thats not the case. Just like it was the case for years and years that AOS ran on AmigaOne but not Peg2 or Macs, even if you get x86 somehow you'll be forced to work with very specific limited choices of hardware. And you'd likely have an OS with no apps for months if not years. Get real!

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 25-Mar-2009 at 02:02 PM.

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Interesting 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 14:00:26
#439 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 1812
From: a place & time long long ago, when things mattered.

@eXec

Quote:
Well the best for us would be to stay on the 600Mhz PPC for the next 10 years!


The future belongs to the GPU not the CPU.

Best bang for the buck is to get all the features of the GPU.

Remember Amiga was built on Graphics, Graphics and more Graphics. We have Os4x now we need the full features of the Graphics.

your thoughts?

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SHADES 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 14:01:21
#440 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 612
From: Melbourne

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@eXec

Quote:

eXec wrote:

- PPC desktops are all gone, no more support for them...
- The upcoming decade is a decade of the x86 architecture.
- During the next 5 years, an integration of GPU inside the main
CPU is in avoidable (Larabe).
- Nvidia announced it`s x86 CPU.

Amiga˙s destiny is to go x86! All other courses are too expensive
and unstable on long term period.

All the best,

D.




So support AROS, its the only x86 game in town. Or push Amiga, Inc. to make OS5 for x86 since they have lots of cash. Pushing Hyperion is not going to get you anywhere. Do you at all get that?


If a company won't listen to it's userbase, and the userbase isn't going to invest, where does that leave the company?
It's not embarresing, it's a discussion and perhaps, some of the suggestions will open up some new development routs. People want to see OS4.1 continue on an easy to get, upgradeable and developing H/W base that is available and cheap and very accessable.
Saying go to AROS isn't constructive, why not just take that comment and go say, Port AOS to Transmetta because we just HATE x86. There is just so much dislike for a codebase. I say put that energy in to making AOS easy to get and better than the rest or if you just HAVE to hate something, hate the other OS's. The Platforms will run whatever you program them to run. ;) no bias there ;)

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