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      /  NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
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ChrisH 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 8-Apr-2009 8:41:15
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6679
From: Unknown

@WoDK
Whether the Natami is "extremely ambitious" or just "fake" *may* not matter, since *sometimes* both of those can have the same end result (i.e. nothing).

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WoDK 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 8-Apr-2009 9:04:27
#22 ]
Member
Joined: 6-Apr-2009
Posts: 23
From: Unknown

@ChrisH

Yes in a way we use to be sad because nice projects are already dead in the past. But this one is for me the best because i'm waiting for new 68K classic AMIGA with a more powerfull processor.
PPC is useless for me ( and for me only maybe ), i just need a classic AMIGA to replay to all oldies and to build or get new products.

In my dreams too, someone should create a "Games factory" like or a "multimedia fusion like" to help community to create lot of games. "Games construction kit" with script language. It's out of our subject but it can be a nice weapon we need.

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meet.mrnrg 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 8-Apr-2009 9:30:58
#23 ]
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Joined: 5-Feb-2007
Posts: 1919
From: UK, AUS, US

@WoDK

I hear you... The project will also re-educate and empower Amigans in their current and perhaps future places of work, that is if they wish to or currently do use IT skills and decision making in the work place.

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ErikBauer 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 8-Apr-2009 9:43:56
#24 ]
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Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1141
From: Italy

@WoDK

You're not the only one! I also prefer a 68K amiga to a PPC one.

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retro 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 8-Apr-2009 23:57:03
#25 ]
Super Member
Joined: 16-Dec-2003
Posts: 1049
From: Unknown

i am sorry, i wasent talking about natami. i relly hope it will come.

but in general. whot is the point of making wapor.. is does it even have a name....

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NovaCoder 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 9-Apr-2009 4:39:42
#26 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Apr-2008
Posts: 489
From: Melbourne (Australia)

@retro

I doubt it will ever be released to the general public, I guess it may make it out as some kind of DEV kit in very small numbers.

A far more realistic chance of an updated classic chipset comes from Jens (eg CloneA). If he can get the $$$ investment it could even be made into a drop-in replacement for the old motherboards, it might even be possible to get the offical nod from AmigaInc (to avoid the legal hassles).

Imagine a new 1200 MB with onboard 50mhz 030, modern(ish) memory modules, faster IDE, faster blitter, faster and increased chipram, new screen modes (higher res, more colours, scan doubler...a chunky mode)...............I'd buy that for a dollar

Last edited by NovaCoder on 09-Apr-2009 at 04:41 AM.

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WoDK 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 9-Apr-2009 12:37:04
#27 ]
Member
Joined: 6-Apr-2009
Posts: 23
From: Unknown

@NovaCoder

450 $ Max for me and with a sata HD if possible :)

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meet.mrnrg 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 9-Apr-2009 19:21:35
#28 ]
Super Member
Joined: 5-Feb-2007
Posts: 1919
From: UK, AUS, US

@All

http://www.natami.net/gfx/NAe60R/NAe60R_1.jpg


Click for full size.

[Edit: Image size way too large - _Steve_]

Last edited by _Steve_ on 11-Apr-2009 at 12:03 AM.

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CodeSmith 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 10-Apr-2009 1:12:56
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@meet.mrnrg

Interesting... it doesn't look like any standard form factor though (eg where would the 15 pin VGA socket go?). My guess is that it's probably a photo of the CPU card, not the NatAmi board itself.

Last edited by CodeSmith on 10-Apr-2009 at 01:14 AM.

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Quixote 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 10-Apr-2009 8:30:22
#30 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 23-Jun-2003
Posts: 481
From: Unknown

This is a fascinating concept, even if it's just a hobby effort.

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Arko 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 10-Apr-2009 11:53:49
#31 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@All

I like the Natami idea, but I would prefere to keep it simple.

Instead of making an own 68070 CPU It would be better to use a 68060 ( maybe a low cost Version )

I have seen some free 68k cores on the Net, they often uses a FPGA that is suitable to operate with 400MHz and they ends with a CPU clock around 25MHz. There is a big difference between the theoretical clock frequencies of the FPGA and the results you get when you make a complex design on an FPGA.

The Natami will never be a LowCost design, the Natami team should try to keep it real and simple as possible.

The Clone-A will be something 'game related' Jens asked for investors to produce a cheap ASIC design. I suspect Jens trying to develop a Amiga DTV with built in games, it will probable be a A500 / A1200 clone and not a A4000/060.

The Minimig is the olnly project that exists in silicone. I'm concerned about the state of this project, it ist still nothing more than reduced a A500 Clone. There is still no AGA version and there is still no chance for a Minimig with 68030 and higher clock speeds.




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I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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meet.mrnrg 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 10-Apr-2009 11:55:26
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 5-Feb-2007
Posts: 1919
From: UK, AUS, US

@CodeSmith

Top Left Hand Corner
MC68060RC

processor expansion card

* Motorola MC68060RC processor
* 4MByte no-waitstate SRAM
* Kickstart flash memory
* Serial port debug interface


Its about time we hear more about the MinMig. (ROUND 2)

Last edited by meet.mrnrg on 10-Apr-2009 at 11:57 AM.

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Channel_Z 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 10-Apr-2009 12:00:02
#33 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2009
Posts: 305
From: Unknown

@Arko

Much of the "070" softcore is already up in a stable 133MHz according to the team. It does most instructions in one clock cycle. Have a look at:
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=5649

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_Steve_ 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 11-Apr-2009 0:02:09
#34 ]
Team Member
Joined: 17-Oct-2002
Posts: 6807
From: UK

@Arko

Quote:

Arko wrote:

The Clone-A will be something 'game related' Jens asked for investors to produce a cheap ASIC design. I suspect Jens trying to develop a Amiga DTV with built in games, it will probable be a A500 / A1200 clone and not a A4000/060.


Well the Clone-A is meant to be a reimplementation of the AGA chipset isn't it, so that makes it unsuitable as an A500 clone - which the MiniMig already fills.

Quote:
The Minimig is the olnly project that exists in silicone. I'm concerned about the state of this project, it ist still nothing more than reduced a A500 Clone. There is still no AGA version and there is still no chance for a Minimig with 68030 and higher clock speeds.


The MiniMig was always designed to be a replacement for the A500 hardware. It was only designed to handle OCS/ECS (and not AGA) as the FPGA isn't big enough for that and everything else. This said, the MiniMig has the potential to be expanded upon and the work by various 3rd parties proves that. Adding an 030 is somewhat pointless as it was always intended to be an A500 whose software base expects to find a 68000 and is likely to fall over when presented with something containing caches - or games will experience timing problems (like Syndicate) when they were coded using loops to slow things down.

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Krischan76 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 11-Apr-2009 5:44:38
#35 ]
Member
Joined: 25-Dec-2007
Posts: 47
From: outside the looney bin

At least they have come up with some news: Their 68070 is now named 68050 cause it's not superscalar. A setback?

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kolla 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 11-Apr-2009 6:37:45
#36 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 2859
From: Trondheim, Norway

@_Steve_

Adding a 030 would essencially turn the MiniMig into an A2500/A3000 "clone" - true, some games do not like this, but certainly system conform programs will benefit from it. Do you also consider 030 acc-cards for A500 pointless? I have a 030 in my A600, and it is not pointless, neither is the ammount of RAM one can add with a 030 (or better) in place.

Last edited by kolla on 11-Apr-2009 at 06:40 AM.
Last edited by kolla on 11-Apr-2009 at 06:40 AM.

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Channel_Z 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 11-Apr-2009 8:12:30
#37 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2009
Posts: 305
From: Unknown

@Krischan76

Not really, it is a decision made because they want to get a fully working softcore CPU done as early as possible. Work on improving it will still be going on after it is made available to the public.
Good decision imo.

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OldFart 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 11-Apr-2009 12:47:27
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2004
Posts: 3059
From: Stad; en d'r is moar ain stad en da's Stad. Makkelk zat!

@Krischan76

Quote:
Their 68070 is now named 68050...

Or they ran into trouble with Philips/Signetics whom supplied a processor of their own under that name, but, CMIIW, was nothing else then an 68010 and a little something.

From Wikipedia (correcting myself):
The 68070 was a Philips-branded 68000-based Microcontroller with built in DMA controller, minimal MMU, I²C bus controller and other enhancements. Not all the differences were enhancements: it did not feature a dedicated address generation unit, so that, for example, operations involving an operand in memory requiring address calculation took longer on the 68070 than the 68000, since the same ALU had to do first the effective address calculation and then the operation. It was used in the CD-i.

OldFart

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_Steve_ 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 11-Apr-2009 13:09:01
#39 ]
Team Member
Joined: 17-Oct-2002
Posts: 6807
From: UK

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@_Steve_

Adding a 030 would essencially turn the MiniMig into an A2500/A3000 "clone" - true, some games do not like this, but certainly system conform programs will benefit from it. Do you also consider 030 acc-cards for A500 pointless? I have a 030 in my A600, and it is not pointless, neither is the ammount of RAM one can add with a 030 (or better) in place.


But the thing to bear in mind here, is that you are referring to an A600 - which was designed with HDs in mind and came with OS2.x.

OS1.x was not really aimed at HD usage (no automouting until 1.3.x), and the majority of the A500's software base is games which neither need a HD, nor required a faster CPU.
As I mentioned a lot of the games on the A500 will break if a CPU with caches is used, or if the VBR was moved (as many 68010 users discovered), not to mention the serious timing issues faced by software (read as games) coded using CPU loops to slow it all down.

There are not generally many A500 owners who had a HD for their machine (the GVP series were very expensive - A530s cost nearly £1000 when I first investigated them for a 20-40MB model and 4MB ram). It wasn't until I got my A1200 that a HD became more of a necessity than a flight of fancy that may not get much use.

The point behind the MiniMig was to be as compatible to the original OCS/ECS hardware as possible, recreating the system in an FPGA. Changing the CPU will break this compatibility for no real main gain. Besides that, wasn't the MiniMig CPU soldered onto the board rather than using a core within the FPGA? Surely therefore adding an 030 would require the board to be somewhat redesigned.

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Arko 
Re: NATAMI ? Is it a fake or reality ?
Posted on 11-Apr-2009 16:02:29
#40 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@_Steve_

Quote:

Well the Clone-A is meant to be a reimplementation of the AGA chipset isn't it, so that makes it unsuitable as an A500 clone - which the MiniMig already fills.


I never heard Jens showed an AGA version of it. An ECS version would suit perfectly to a game related project. It keeps the costs low and most games where written for the A500.
If Jens includes a programm loader compatible to the Action Replay, he would not need to ask Amiga Inc. for an AOS3.x licence. AFAIK Jens owns the Action Replay code and licence.

Quote:

The MiniMig was always designed to be a replacement for the A500 hardware.


No impossible, there is to much missing:
no floppy, no paralellport, no A500 compatbel enhancement Slot ( ZORRO-I ?),.

Quote:

It was only designed to handle OCS/ECS (and not AGA) as the FPGA sn't big enough for that and everything else. This said, the MiniMig has the potential to be expanded upon and the work by various 3rd parties proves that


AFAIK Minimig is an open source project. AGA needs only some few enhancements and Minimig is not just the board sold by ACube. It could be ported to other FPGAs it could get some real improvement it could also become a low cost Natami.

Quote:
Adding an 030 is somewhat pointless as it was always intended to be an A500 whose software base expects to find a 68000 and is likely to fall over when presented with something containing caches -


I can't agree, 68030 boards with a 50 MHz 060 where available for the A500. A 68030 ( EC or LC ) with 28MHz is quite cheap today, 8 MB static RAM is affordable, there are no technical reasons why no one creates a new enhanced Minimg.

And yuor idea about ECS and CPUs below 68030:
The A2000 and the A500 shares nearly the same design. My A2000 is equipped with an B2060, but i bough a graphic card bevore.

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I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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