@amitv

Menace would be a very harsh word to apply considering that AROS tries to be multiplatform the only platform that AmigaOS 4.x runs as well as AROS is SAM... And to be perfectly fair AROS SAM version lacks a lot of the X-86 development branch - So comparison between the two isn't really fair at best...

Having said that on a wider perspective it seems to me that AROS is finally delivering some high hopes regarding its recent development. It's becoming stable and delivering usable software for the common daily routines.
It's also becoming more hardware friendly on X86 architecture (which is cheaper) supporting more devices and getting easier to install. It's getting more hw ports (Efika PPC and ARM architecture soon..). So perspective is a little more solid on this end.

As for Open-source solution, it has to be said, that it wasn't this the problem behind it's slow development (in fact it's one of the main reasons behind it's recent evolution), but the lack of believe and a broader perspective of the Amiga community.
When AROS started, many still used Intel outside badges and backdrops on their WB's, and saw AmigaOS would go on in New Generation hw (which turn out to be vapourware in many cases) believing that Amiga custom architecture was binded to AmigaOS and that any other form was sacrilegious at best.

I myself did not put much hope on the (back then...) Amiga Replacement Operating System, saw that more as curiosity, and didn't believe that X-86 architeture was enough to cope with AmigaOS concepts. Reading Amiga magazines about AROS didn't made more open to new ideas. But guess what - It's here while many other Amiga projects just faded away.

This is trully a community project, and while many may discuss it's validity, it has won on it's own merit - It stands now proudly...

As for menace, I don't believe that it will hurt SAM and AmigaOS4.x sales, just because it supports more and cheaper hardware. Those who were skeptical regarding AmigaOS4.x will not be affected by the existence of AROS - I would say that AROS success relies on it's own and not on other AmigaOS and likes failures. The likewise is IMHO true as well...

Last edited by hardwired on 27-Apr-2009 at 04:25 PM.

_________________
Because Amiga It's not just about technology but it's also about people...

AROS is here to stay, and the way I see it, when gfx-system is cleaned up, and enhanced, will be a fantastic amiga like system. You can run it on cheap hardware, with speeds not seen in amiga-land.

For AmigaOS and MorphOS I'm also belive in a future. It's all up to them to come up with either x86 support, or some cheap hardware.

Why AROS have not got much attention is because it's not been good enough, and did not have a www-browser. Also the lack of hardware drivers, kept people from using it.
At current state AROS is very useable, and have a good Browser, but still lacks drivers.

I follow all amiga like platforms, and hope for a bright future. I hope there soon will be some good amiga and morphos news, cause AROS is getting real good theese days.

I been thinking buying sam440 many times, but to expensive. Morphos I also like, but no good hardware. Then I'm left with AROS, and happy with it.

I wish all the best for amiga and amiga like systems.

I also wish Hyperion would not be so secret about things, and little more open to the little community. But I know in the past the Hyperion said things, and people in forums took all that been said, and made a sope opera about it.

For me this is not about a war between amiga, morphos and AROS. It's about getting a good amiga or amiga like system at a reasonable cost.

Little link to my AROS desktop
http://aros-exec.org/modules/xcgal/displayimage.php?pid=446&album=lastup&cat=&pos=0

Please lets be friends. We all love Amiga

Last edited by nikosidis on 27-Apr-2009 at 04:48 PM.

I don't get the point why creating yet another OS without memory protection, and, and, and...
The problem of AROS has allways been the idea to create an open source AmigaOS 3.1, and improve it from that basis. But there is no need for an AmigaOS 3.x now.

If you need an OS with Amiga look & feel and compatibility, then you could better take for example a BSD-kernel, a small, but powerful, modern and good looking GUI like Enlightenment and draw an Amiga-theme, and starting from this basis you can try to integrate a kind of UAE, invisible for the user. Just click on you classic-Amiga application, and it runs. That would be the Macintosh-way how they've done MacOS X. The user does not care what's inside and how it works, he wants a system he can use as he allways does, and if it is more stable and has more features, it's even better.

There is no point why to use AROS on x86, if you don't have the most essential drivers and applications. At the desktop-market we currently have a share of 89% Windows (in all incarnations), 9 % MacOS X, 1 % Linux and the rest 1 % is shared between all other systems, like the BSDs, Haiku, FreeDos and of course Aros. Why should anybody switch to Aros? I've tried to install it on my very common IBM Thinkpad T23. The IBM mouse surrogate (that funny eraser-thing in the keyboard) is not supported by AROS, not even the graphic-chip, so I only have 640 x 480. If I buy the as exotic AmigaOS 4.1 or Morphos, I will have to buy special hardware, which is supported. The same with Macs. Maybe Aros will have a chance if it a) offers me an advantage over other OSses, and it comes with 100% supported hardware.

Both, Efika and Sam, are hardware made for embedded systems, which is indeed a niche market. That hardware could be used not only for kiosk-systems, but for example for a small and portable computer as a true "home-and-hobby-computer", hardware for geeks and nerds, or for modern STBs.

So don't optimize Aros for desktop-PCs, but for as small computers as possible. Bundle it with Hollywood 4.0, and I see an interesting niche-market. Such a motherboard with an Atom CPU would be around 60 EUR/Pound/ or 70 $. Well, I would buy that!

@DrZarkov

Quote:

DrZarkov wrote: I don't get the point why creating yet another OS without memory protection, and, and, and... The problem of AROS has allways been the idea to create an open source AmigaOS 3.1, and improve it from that basis. But there is no need for an AmigaOS 3.x now. If you need an OS with Amiga look & feel and compatibility, then you could better take for example a BSD-kernel, a small, but powerful, modern and good looking GUI like Enlightenment and draw an Amiga-theme, and starting from this basis you can try to integrate a kind of UAE, invisible for the user. Just click on you classic-Amiga application, and it runs. That would be the Macintosh-way how they've done MacOS X. The user does not care what's inside and how it works, he wants a system he can use as he allways does, and if it is more stable and has more features, it's even better.

This isnt a new idea:
[/quote]http://www.anubis-os.org/home/

Quote:

There is no point why to use AROS on x86, if you don't have the most essential drivers and applications. At the desktop-market we currently have a share of 89% Windows (in all incarnations), 9 % MacOS X, 1 % Linux and the rest 1 % is shared between all other systems, like the BSDs, Haiku, FreeDos and of course Aros. Why should anybody switch to Aros?

Why should anybody use an Amiga at all ?
Why should anybody spent several 100 Euros to buy a Amiga PPC Hardware ?
At least AROS is for free and people can try it without wasting money.

Quote:

I've tried to install it on my very common IBM Thinkpad T23. The IBM mouse surrogate (that funny eraser-thing in the keyboard) is not supported by AROS, not even the graphic-chip, so I only have 640 x 480. If I buy the as exotic AmigaOS 4.1 or Morphos, I will have to buy special hardware, which is supported. The same with Macs. Maybe Aros will have a chance if it a) offers me an advantage over other OSses, and it comes with 100% supported hardware.

I thinks thats ####.
The "funny rubber thing" is always implented as a PS/2 mouse which is supported by AROS.
And even if you graphics chipset is not supported, all VESA modes should work just fine.
If your notebook stops booting and screen wents black, the problem is probably the ata controller.

Just change ATA=32bit to ATA=nodma and it should boot.

@DrZarkov

Quote:

I've tried to install it on my very common IBM Thinkpad T23. The IBM mouse surrogate...

Your PS/2 rubber should be correctly supported by AROS, like about every touchpad and other PS/2 devices. Your video chip should work at higher resolutions using VESA modes. And they will, if you turn off dma

at bootstrap highlight the VESA mode with your favourite resolution
press E instead of enter
go to ATA=32bit and add ",nodma", in order to have ATA=32bit,nodma
press Ctrl+X to boot

if it works, edit /boot/grub/grub.cfg to make that change permanent. Obviously, you have to install on HDD first.

@amitv

Absolutely not!

I as a user wannabe can say: It doesn't work on my hp 530. Sound: whatever, graphics- whatever. Why? Because my WinXP and Kubuntu install and work seamlessly.

By saying "should work" it goes to the same pattern as most pointless Linux distros. BTW xUbuntu rules, not only on that it just perfectly works, as for a Linux, more!

It is fine to support most typical nvidia or... the other one, just forgot the name, don't care anyway. So fine. But in 2009 it's notebooks with their SOC-embedded everything that dictate conditions. I was really happy to hear about iMica, with its price. Well I strive for compactness, I don't want to another x8... sorry, PC, just to have AROS.

Let us wait for any Mini release (this very year I suppose) and then...

Quote:

Krashan wrote: @amitv MorphOS will wipe them out both .

Another way - AROS is then no more. No personal here, just a forecast.

I mean about AROS - does both include Hyperion/AOS4? I don't think so. If MorphOS on the Mini succeeds, that is, getting to the next userbase level (which isn't entirely pointless, accounting current MorphOS base), Hyperion won't have much choice, will they?

_________________
Night, night.

@Heinz

Quote:

Heinz wrote: @DrZarkov Quote: DrZarkov wrote: [quote] I've tried to install it on my very common IBM Thinkpad T23. The IBM mouse surrogate (that funny eraser-thing in the keyboard) is not supported by AROS, not even the graphic-chip, so I only have 640 x 480. If I buy the as exotic AmigaOS 4.1 or Morphos, I will have to buy special hardware, which is supported. The same with Macs. Maybe Aros will have a chance if it a) offers me an advantage over other OSses, and it comes with 100% supported hardware. I thinks thats ####. The "funny rubber thing" is always implented as a PS/2 mouse which is supported by AROS. And even if you graphics chipset is not supported, all VESA modes should work just fine.

Not all PS/2 devices work with AROS: I've recently come across a laptop trackpad that doesn't work, so I'm currently trying to fix the mouse driver. And some PCs don't support VESA modes properly. But having said that, I think it's disingenuous to say that AROS is rubbish because it doesn't work with every PC under the sun. Even if you have to buy a new PC to run AROS, it will be cheaper and faster than a SAM system.

@amitv

Pancakes. I didn't bother to vote, since neither one of them is a menace to anything.

_________________
What happened to my sig?

I never said that AROS is "rubbish", exactly the opposite! AROS already gave so much to the community, with all that stuff "re-ported" to AmigaOS 3.x, 4.x and Morphos. AROS is now quite usable.

All I said was, that I had problems to run it on my Thinkpad. The problem is, that people expect from an x86 AmigaOS clone, that it will run on almost any PC. Of course there will be never all the drivers for any possible hardware configuration. That is the problem of any x86 OS, even if you have a too old or too new Windows for your hardware it will not work, not to mention Linux or the BSDs...
Apple avoided that problem by using a kind of dongle that allows (without hacks) installing MacOS X only on a PC sold by Apple. Aros is free, so there is no need for a dongle, but to make it more user-friendly, the "Imica" is a very good idea. Maybe more companies should sell selected hardware, which is tested with AROS, together with a complete software distribution like Icaros. (Indeed I'm thinking about to do so...).

The minimum the Aros developers could do to get a broader basis of installed systems is a list of supported hardware. You have to look it up in several "read me's", or in the case of sound it is a surprise, what you will find in AHI, but no newer documentation about supported chips anywhere.

How important AROS will become in the future depends to the the further developement of AmigaOS, Morphos and available PPC-hardware. I like the direction into mini ITX 8and even smaller) motherboards with embedded processor, as AmigaOS (and it's "sibblings") can no longer compete with MacOS X or Windows. But for niches it is still interesting. An "Efika" motherboard costs about 180 EUR. An Intel Atom mini ITX board running Aros would cost the half, but it would be four times faster. That is indeed interesting.

time to re-open this thread

@amitv

i see Aros becoming complementary to AmigaOS.
My two cents

@ssolie

Quote:

Yawn.

At least AmgiaOS4 is raging success by any standards. Right?

I don't really think that AmigaOS4 is threaten by AROS and that's also true other way around. I didn't find AROS attractive until last year when some interesting work where done by developers. Now I'm put my Amiga-hope (that's a special brand of hope, it's bitter, cynical and blind) into AROS. It has come long way and I can see it on my netbook in a future.

Last edited by opi on 25-May-2010 at 01:13 PM.

_________________
OpenWindows Initiative. Port PS3 hardware to bananas. For free. Join today and receive expired $50 cupon from AI!

@opi

Quote:

I didn't find AROS attractive until last year

So something is changed, then?

I was an AOS4-user (sold my AOS4-system for now to buy a new Mac for video-editing and will maybe buy a X1000 or new SAM later this year), but I had a look at AROS a month ago and now I am running a little AROS-box (imica-like miniitx-pc) with ICAROS and I really like it. I can use my favorite Amiga-apps with AROS (SimpleMail, YAM, OWB, Hollywood) and the UAE-integration for 68k-apps is a good start.

AROS gets better and better and its a cheap alternative for me, to play around with a NG-AmigaOS in the meanwhile. Even when I will use AOS4 again, I will keep a AROS-installation on a Netbook to have a cheap and mobile Amiga(like)-system.

BTW: I don´t understand the "menace"-stuff, it´s all a matter of choice. AROS is just an additional possibility for an Amiga-experience on cheap and fast hardware.

_________________
Pegasos II with MorphOS 3.1 and AmigaOS 4.1
Amiga 3000 (coming soon)

All 3 developers has done lots of work for aros. Them and all 6 active users are going to be really disapointed if you vote wrong

@AmigaBlitter:
>So something is changed, then?

I don´t know, if this question is a joke but anyway:

Yep, AROS (especially in form of ICAROS) is now really usable (even printing is possible now) and there is full supported hardware (imica, AresOne). Also AROS supports Netbooks like the AcerAspireOne (which is important for opi, I think ).

_________________
Pegasos II with MorphOS 3.1 and AmigaOS 4.1
Amiga 3000 (coming soon)

@utri007

Quote:

All 3 developers has done lots of work for aros. Them and all 6 active users are going to be really disapointed if you vote wrong

You're so funny. Hah. Burn. Classic comedy gold. Next, do a flip on banana peal!

_________________
OpenWindows Initiative. Port PS3 hardware to bananas. For free. Join today and receive expired $50 cupon from AI!

@utri007: As I am a new AROS-user there must be at least seven users...

_________________
Pegasos II with MorphOS 3.1 and AmigaOS 4.1
Amiga 3000 (coming soon)

@AP

Does Trevor count as three users because he has two iMicas and an AresOne.

_________________
Amiga 1000, 3000D, Aros Nvidia PC, and an Aros powered Rasberry Pi owner and user.
http://www.vrexperience.net

Is AROS a menace to AmigaOS4?

In terms of X1000 sales I do not believe it will matter in the least. In fact its existence, in itself, may even help.

The X1000 is not a main-stream machine.
Just how many X1000 sales do you think there will be? 2000? 5,000?
I'll give the X1000 the benefit of the doubt and even say 10,000.
There will be practically no casual buyers because it is too much of an ask.
You won't see many people who are not already in the Amiga sphere plonking down that kind of money.
Then, how many people are then in the Amiga sphere?
Does 10,000 even seem reasonable?
The X1000, and indeed all OS4 hardware is for hardcore Amigafiles only.
People buying an X1000 are already sold on the idea and there is nothing wrong with that.
Therefore AROS is not a menace to OS4 sales in any sense.

But........

There is a snowball effect occurring with AROS, which people are starting to pick up on, demonstrated by this thread and its provocative title. We are all witness to a real excitement, borne from not being restricted by any of these business entities, which many perceive as having let us down time after time. Some tangible developments are brewing, that will render most arguments against AROS as moot. You see more and more people coming to the defense of AROS in these very forums, and any OS4 supporter with a degree of sanity would have to ask themselves......if they are really on the right side of the fence. Does the expense of OS4 and its hardware justify the benefits? To some it might, and to others it doesn't, and that is where AROS comes in. AOS4 and MorphOS are not the only options.

You say AROS has had all this time, and if it was going to succeed it would have already.
It would not be hard to argue the same of OS4 and MorphOS.

There is currently no war between AROS and OS4. Indeed they share more similarities than differences and can benefit from the developments of each other. I predict there will eventually be a sea-change. I would not say that AROS development is proceeding exponentially, but if the last year is any indication, its growth will most likely outpace that of OS4 in the years ahead. There is no stopping this force. It is the force of the people, and the power of open source. It embraces and perpetuates the Amiga spirit, and encapsulates the imagination of its developers, to actively push the platform they love forward for the good of all that may call themselves Amigans.

AROS does not run on all hardware that you own, but it is far better than none, or very limited or expensive hardware. When you start to get vendors selling fully supported x86 hardware for AROS you start to recognise a commitment to quality. The risk of return in purchasing hardware to run an Amiga-like OS is minimised and you do not require a second machine out of necessity. You just boot into a different OS and whatever shortcoming there may be is solved. It is impossible to deny that X86 gives you more bang for your buck in terms of hardware performance and options. No one, with the benefit of hindsight, would not agree that PPC was a bad idea. You can't compare a 1.8 Ghz PPC system with a high end x86 running in the order of 2.5 to 3+Ghz if you were paying the same price, let alone if you were paying only half that.

Amiga users of all hardware platforms are stubborn in their allegiances so unfortunately we can expect altercations between AROS and OS4 users to rise. Especially when OS4 users will have to justify their investment to themselves and others.

I believe, as many are starting to recognise, that AROS is the long-term future of the Amiga platform. It is more than just a safety net if AOS4 dies. The majority of people on AW probably can't see it yet, but the best is yet to come and all Amiga&alike platforms will benefit in the end.

So in conclusion, is AROS a menace to AmigaOS4?
No, it is a menace to AmigaOS5.

There are many ships on the horizon.
There are many more popular brands of hardware than Amiga.

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Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
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