Quote:

Remember the Amigia invented "mulitmedia"

You're dreaming...

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

IYONIX PC why do you assume porting to arm will mean cheaper more powerful hardware, it never worked that way for riscOS?

Last edited by TheMaskedMuchacho on 20-Jul-2009 at 03:39 PM.

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@OldFart

Quote:

And then having to endure all the complaints as to why device XYZ with ARM PocoPoco is not supported as that is the device they have just bought. Keep in mind you have to deal with people! It'll be all the same, whatever they do, UNLESS it is a new type of device in the sence that the processor used is not overly mainstream, hence PPC!

Aha, so while by moving to maybe more general HW we have to keep in mind we have to deal with ppl, then somehow mysteriously in the case of PPC board we don't have to deal with ppl, right? I really don't know what is more difficult for ppl - to read list of few suggested netbooks, buy fully functionaly system, or to deal with buggy PPC boards? Or are you pretending that A1s were without bugs and problems?

Quote:

It has been mentioned before, here as well as in other threads, when it comes to the very inspirational remark: "port to x86 or die!" (and now ARM or go bust), that porting to a different architecture is putting current developement to a full halt. Would you please realise that switching contexts on this scale may lead to a situation we have had to endure from the moment the A1's became available, what, 6 years ago?

No, we don't have to. Because there is no situation, there is no Amiga, there is only remnants here or there. How many boards do we have nowadays? SAM? What else? Will there be any future version? You as an enterpreneur should know, that ppl are looking for more secured future. It is not about going mainstream to be mainstream, but about being more safe. What if Acube goes out of business? What then? AOS with no HW to run on?

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Would you be pleased to go through all that hassle for another 5 or 6 years waiting for the code to become mature? Or would you prefer to have something palpable for X-mas this year even if it does not sport the specific processor of your choice? *I* fully well know what I prefer!

I would be really interested in some estimate by one of OS related ppl, e.g. from someone from the AOS, MorphOS or AROS team. How is that AROS was ported from x86 to Efika in relatively short period? Surely it did not took 5 - 6 years, no?

Quote:

And I said it before in this thread: the people behind Hyperion are fully capable about the decision making concerning the future for Amiga OS! I have full faith in their capabillities in that respect.

You have the faith, I don't. At least not sooner before I can see some evidence. Don't get me wrong - I wish them business success and all that. But - they might not choose what is best for AmigaOS future, but what is best for them. I mean - each OS vendor would surely benefit from more ppl buying cheaper PCs to run their OS on. In that respect x86 or ARM is surely better option than continuation of PPC agony. But the transition to get there in reasonable time-frame or resource-wise might be too steep for Hyperion to handle. So they will do, what suits their plan to survive, to profit. But that does not mean that it is the best for AOS itself.

@Leo

Quote:

I don't care about the platform as long as it's fast enough and cheap

agree....

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I don't care about 68k. It should have been dropped since a long long time. We have UAE is for nostalgic people

TRUE

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All (not most) people buy x86 because it's cheap and fast

YES THATS ALSO TRUE

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Amiga users bought the AOne/Sam/whatever because it runs AmigaOS, not because it's cool, fast, cheap

THATS = TRUE

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If AmigaOS was running on x86, current Amiga users would also run it. Most of them already have a PC

TRUE


so why go ppc when we are so so hungry for cheap HW and we go for dead ppc why
why why when we can only stick a cd/dvd and install Lovely amiga os in to x86 fast HW and enjoy the real power plus multi tasking OS & we dont even have to worry about HW & just work on the software site of it.

ACube Systems wont make them any cheap or faaaast so why stick to one company who are here today & not tomorrow..

sam was planed for linux not amiga in mind.....

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http://aros-exec.org/

http://serk118.blogspot.com/

@-pekr-

Quote:

-pekr- wrote: Quote: Arko wrote: Minimum specs: - 600MHz - FPU - PCI Slot - Standard form factor Arko, you have to be kidding, right?

No !

Quote:

Add Genesi. Add any PhonePDA vendor with older ARMs or newer SnapDragons.

Sorry but Phones miss the minimum spec for a desktop ( 600MHz, FPU, PCI Slot, Standard form factor ) and the minimum specs for a netbook. Genesi boards are currently not available for a price lower than the Sam440. I'm not a fan of the Sam440 but it is hard to find something cheaper, the problem is finding even if it exists.

Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beagle_Board

No PCI
FPU seems to be missing
the used CPU has a wrong byte order

Quote:

Freescale presenting ARM based devices.

please be so kind a show me one of the freescale devices:

Minimum specs:

- 600MHz
- FPU
- PCI Slot
- Standard form factor
. price like the Sam440

Quote:

How is there they don't use PPC?

Look I did not ask for PPC, if the question would be PPC or ARM, there are plenty of used Macs that have enough power, if AOS4 would be available for one of them, there would be enough used hardware for an intermediate solution. But I just asked:
"Show me a solution with ARM that does actually compete with the SAM440"

I just wanted to make clear: “switching from one hardware niche to the other might be no solution”
ARM won't bring you cheap 2GHz ( or better ) desktop boards now, this is not because there are no CPUs. It's the same problem as on PPC, there are enough good PPC or ARM CPUs, there is just a lack of companies that builds cheap motherboard with them.

Last edited by Arko on 20-Jul-2009 at 05:26 PM.
Last edited by Arko on 20-Jul-2009 at 04:10 PM.
Last edited by Arko on 20-Jul-2009 at 04:10 PM.

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AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

Quote:

there are enough good PPC or ARM CPUs, there is just a lack of companies that builds cheap motherboard with them

Simply because there is no market for such boards... so no way to produce (and sell) it in high quantities.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

the situation for PPC is in some ways better than it was for 68k in the late 80s, then only three companies, Commodore, atari and sega built affordable hardware around a 68000 cpu (apple hardware was too expensive) now we have 3 companies who build affordable hardware with a PPC cpu, Microsoft, nintendo and sony and they sell in much higher numbers. PPC is not dead, its just left the desktop, no reason it cant return.

Personally i like the look of Cell for workstations but all they sell in that market now is a PCI-E card with a computer on it for about $8000. if only amiga, hyperion and newtec could get into bed together and produce a modern Video toaster based around the cell and AmigaOS and sell us a lower spec system, cell is perfect for such a system. ~sigh~ a man can dream.

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Quote:

the situation for PPC is in some ways better than it was for 68k in the late 80s, then only three companies, Commodore, atari and sega built affordable hardware around a 68000 cpu (apple hardware was too expensive) now we have 3 companies who build affordable hardware with a PPC cpu, Microsoft, nintendo and sony and they sell in much higher numbers. PPC is not dead, its just left the desktop, no reason it cant return.

Microsoft contracted IBM to design and produce the XBox 360 CPU. This CPU is available in no other device than the 360.

Nintendo contracted IBM to design and produce the Wii's CPU. This CPU is available in no other device than the Wii.

Last but not least, Sony, Toshiba, IBM worked together to design and produce the Cell. The only market where it is available in high quantity is the PS3. It is available elsewhere, but it's a different CPU (less SPE iirc).

The 3 giants run their very own OS on their device. The three CPUs have been designed for a specific purpose: gaming. I'm not sure you could buy any other CPU than the stripped-down Cell you may find in some accelerator boards.

Now if you don't see a difference, I can see one. The PPC is dead and burried outside the PS3, Wii, 360. While there were 3 (let's say the Atari/Amiga were) mainstream computers running the 68000, plus arcade based games, the Megadrive, and some Japanese computer, there is today not a single one company using a PPC in a general purpose computer. Why ?

Last edited by Leo on 20-Jul-2009 at 07:39 PM.

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Leo

You mean more SPEs. The PS3 has only 7, regular Cell and XCell systems have the full 8.

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This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@Leo

Quote:

You're dreaming...

nope..... The Amiga was the first multimedia computer.

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"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@Leo

its still a PPC core even if they did ask ibm to develop it for them and its still affordable hardware, in fact the 3 cores in the 360 are almost identical the the PPU core in the PS3 cell as thats what they were based on. i didnt say anything about mainstream systems but i was implying that PPC is probably in as many if not more systems than 68k was in the late 80s. its far from dead. just because one manufacturer stoped using it doesnt mean its dead and will be around for a long time. its just not on your desktop but may be in your car. I think cell is the only PPC based cpu that could be used in a decent desktop computer these days but it looks a little too expensive right now.

You can buy a cell based computer right now but it lives on a pci-e card but they say it can work independently, it costs about $8000 though. herehere

Last edited by TheMaskedMuchacho on 20-Jul-2009 at 08:06 PM.

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@Leo

Quote:

there is today not a single one company using a PPC in a general purpose computer. Why ?

Because in the desktop market companies do not make computers they make Windows ™ machines

Last edited by Fransexy on 20-Jul-2009 at 08:25 PM.

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No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

@Interesting

Sorry but multimedia means able to display graphics, text and produce sound. Any video game other than a text adventure is "multimedia". The Commodore VIC-20, TI-99/4A, C64 and many others were multimedia computers.

They maybe lousy compared to Amiga but also Apple II.

Any computer able to produce music, bitmap graphics, texts, ect. is multimedia. VIC-20 was able to do that. The C64 did it better with a sound chip that was at the time - the world's most sophisticated sound chip or about and still impressive.

The term multimedia didn't exist but what it defines already did. Even windowing, the C64 was able to do. I believe the VIC-20 also and I also believe the TI-99/4A was able and so was the Atari. Pretty much, since around 1979. Amiga did it better and in ways beyond anything that was before.

Amiga did things in a hardware level that was a first and no other desktop computer had it.

@OldFart

Quote:

Would you be pleased to go through all that hassle for another 5 or 6 years waiting for the code to become mature? Or would you prefer to have something palpable for X-mas this year even if it does not sport the specific processor of your choice?

According to Hyperion it cost $2.5 million to develop OS4. Because OS4 runs on a very limited range of hardware, they're never going to sell it in sufficient quantities to make a profit.

I doubt the Sam and Pegasos 2 versions have sold more than 500 units combined, that's maybe enough to pay a developer for 1 year.

Porting to a lower cost platform gives them the opportunity to actually sell something.
Porting to a very low cost platform makes it cheap enough to be an impulse purchase.

Quote:

Oh, hang on! One more thought: what is the name of that once fabled processor that could execute both x86 code and PPC code and what ever else you could throw at it, by 'morphing'.

Transmeta, they gave up processors and eventually sold themselves to a patent troll.
There is another processor called Elbrus that does this but they're probably rather hard to get hold of.

Quote:

Maybe Sony is reviving that thing and suddenly we have a computer that runs x86 code next to PPC code. A perfect solution.

It's nothing magic, how do you think the 68K code runs?

Last edited by minator on 20-Jul-2009 at 08:59 PM.
Last edited by minator on 20-Jul-2009 at 08:42 PM.

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Whyzzat?

@minator

$2.50?

@Arko


Quote:

No PCI

I haven't used a desktop with PCI since 2002, it's made no difference whatsoever. These days all you really need is USB.

Quote:

FPU seems to be missing

FPU is present, as is a vector unit, as is a 256K L2 cache.

Quote:

the used CPU has a wrong byte order

ARM can handle big endian data no problem.
However, since you wont be running PPC or 68K stuff natively this doesn't matter.


Quote:

please be so kind a show me one of the freescale devices: Minimum specs: - 600MHz

Sorry, will 800MHz do?
What about a 1GHz Snapdragon (currently shipping in a phone!).

Quote:

- FPU

Yes

Quote:

- PCI Slot

See above

Quote:

- Standard form factor

Netbook

Quote:

. price like the Sam440

Sorry, can't go that high.
These things (in netbooks) will be under half the price of a Sam440.


Quote:

It's the same problem as on PPC, there are enough good PPC or ARM CPUs, there is just a lack of companies that builds cheap motherboard with them.

You obviously haven't seen who are going to be making them.

Last edited by minator on 20-Jul-2009 at 09:05 PM.
Last edited by minator on 20-Jul-2009 at 09:01 PM.

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Whyzzat?

@Arko

Quote:

Sorry but Phones miss the minimum spec for a desktop ( 600MHz, FPU, PCI Slot, Standard form factor ) and the minimum specs for a netbook. Genesi boards are currently not available for a price lower than the Sam440. I'm not a fan of the Sam440 but it is hard to find something cheaper, the problem is finding even if it exists.

.

Let me point out something:

1. Dual core Cortex-9A is do out early 2010. I think that should put it into SAM440 class, if not to a higher level then the SAM440.

2. What your reference to with Genesi EFIKA MX Dev Edition, that is a netbook mobo which trumps some of a desktop requirements like PCI, IMO. Further more, it's a limited run and was ment for Developers and not for retail sales to the public. Typically a Dev unit is many times more expensive then what Genesi is selling it for. When we hear the final retail product's cost, then complain but I can't imagine a complete netbook being as expensive (else it's not going to sell very well) as SAM440 mobo. I would expect the EFIKA MX Open Client to be far cheaper then the netbook.

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Dammy

Quote:

And then having to endure all the complaints as to why device XYZ with ARM PocoPoco is not supported as that is the device they have just bought. Keep in mind you have to deal with people! It'll be all the same, whatever they do, UNLESS it is a new type of device in the sence that the processor used is not overly mainstream, hence PPC!

The majority of PPC hardware cannot run OS4. (old Macs) I'd LOVE to have it on my iBook. I can't, I am still limited to the special PPC hardwares that Hyperion chooses to port to.

Today, staying PPC severely limits opportunities to be able to go on different hardwares. If Hyperion seriously considered other architectures at this point, then they would have far more opportunities. We're more likely to see higher-performance ARM latpops today than PPC laptops. And of course we're far more likely to see higher-performance and more features laptop with x86 than ARM. ARM is wildly popular in embedded stuff today, PPC seems to be falling out of favor. (Compare PDAs and cell phones based on ARM to those based on PPC today)

For the rabidly anti-x86, ARM should be more palatable today than PPC. OK, there are some PPC that have higher performance than the top ARM today, but there's plenty of ARM stuff now that can keep up with a SAM440 class computer.

I dont' dislike PPC, but looking at where products are going, opportunities for a PPC-only operating system like OS4 are dwindling. That's why some of us feel starved for something different than SAM boards. I want a laptop to run OS4 on, but there are no serious efforts there known to we the public. So I find my mind wandering elsewhere, wishing for different things, and wishing for other processors that would allow such different things.

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All glory to the Hypnotoad!

Quote:

its far from dead.

I said that outside of these consoles (and printers if you want ;)), it was dead.
Now prove me wrong, and show me the figures about the ppc-based computers sold for the past 3 years...

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http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@minator

Quote:

ARM can handle big endian data no problem. However, since you wont be running PPC or 68K stuff natively this doesn't matter.

To an extent it does. Emulating 68k or PPC on x86 involves byte-swapping. If ARM doesn't need to do that step, then it has somewhat less work needed to emulate or translate the binaries than on x86.

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All glory to the Hypnotoad!