@damocles

Quote:

1. Dual core Cortex-9A is do out early 2010. I think that should put it into SAM440 class, if not to a higher level then the SAM440.

I expect a single core Cortex-A8 already beats Sam440 (yes, I mean the Beagleboard).

A single core A9 will eat it for breakfast, it's more into Pegasos 2 territory - and that's not counting the second core or if someone decides to up the clock speed.

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Whyzzat?

@Leo

I never claimed it was used in computers, just that its used somewhere. i even said so in both my posts. My argument was against Arm as that hasn't been used in computers since acorn stopped selling their desktops. looks like only the risc OS community has been buying them for the same kinds of prices and performance as a SAM. PPC isnt used in desktop computers anymore but neither is ARM. there may be a few new netbooks just around the corner but they will nearly all be running Google Android (or chrome OS) so unless some agreement could be reached with a manufacturer to ship a small number with Amiga OS then one would we would still be stuck tied to expensive custom hardware. the beagle board is the only hope as far as Arm goes and thats not going to stop the world.

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@ leo

Quote:

Nintendo contracted IBM to design and produce the Wii's CPU. This CPU is available in no other device than the Wii.

Actually it's available on the open market, it's called the 750CL.

Quote:

Last but not least, Sony, Toshiba, IBM worked together to design and produce the Cell. The only market where it is available in high quantity is the PS3. It is available elsewhere, but it's a different CPU (less SPE iirc).

You probably mean the SpursEngine from Toshiba, it has only 4 SPEs and no PPC core. The standard Cell and the supercomputing variant PwerXCell 8i are available from IBM - but they'll not be cheap.

There are plenty of PPCs around that are perfectly usable, the 86xx or Titan are both much faster processors than the 440 but the problem will all of these is you need custom boards - and they are expensive to make in small quantities.


@TheMaskedMuchacho
Quote:

there may be a few new netbooks just around the corner but they will nearly all be running Google Android (or chrome OS) so unless some agreement could be reached with a manufacturer to ship a small number with Amiga OS then one would we would still be stuck tied to expensive custom hardware.

You can buy them direct and install the OS, you could by them from a wholesaler if you can't get them direct, or you just sell the OS separately. There's no need to make your own systems at all.

Quote:

the beagle board is the only hope as far as Arm goes and thats not going to stop the world.

I don't believe that for a second, and even if I did, it's still 1/4 of the price of a Sam for what it most likely a faster system.

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Whyzzat?

@minator

Actually, it's not. Faster than a PPC, I mean.

I recently evaluated the OMAP35xx family compared to the MPC5121e, and both TI and Freescale (and their common distributor in Norway, Arrow) agreed that the 400MHz PPC beat the 500MHz Cortex-A8 (they spec it to 600MHz in the data sheet, but that requires higher voltage and reduces life time to 1 year running. I needed an always on project). But the real clincher was that it has less features for more money, given the project needs.

Honestly, the beagle board will not beat the SAM. Doesn't mean the beagle board isn't a very cool device (I do have the eval board, just wish I had some time to play with it), but it helps to get the facts straight.

There are rumours about 1GHz Cortex-A8 processors, but none exist. The fastest you can actually go TODAY is 500MHz. Overclockable to 600MHz in extremely short lived applications.

Last edited by olegil on 21-Jul-2009 at 06:51 AM.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@minator

Quote:

minator wrote: @Arko Quote: No PCI I haven't used a desktop with PCI since 2002, it's made no difference whatsoever. These days all you really need is USB.

USB graphic cards are unusable slow, most 'All in one PC' have a build in PCI Card, so if you could show me an ARM main-board that meet the specs.

Quote:

Quote: FPU seems to be missing the used CPU has a wrong byte order FPU is present, as is a vector unit, as is a 256K L2 cache. ARM can handle big endian data no problem.

Not the one that was posted, if you have a motherboad with the right CPU that meet all the specs, post a link !


Minimum specs:

- 600MHz ARM
- FPU
- the right Byteordering ( AFAIk ARM8 ARM9 or better
- PCI
- Price around SAM440

Of there is no PCI Slot ( or better ) I want to see build in SATA, 3D GFX card, sound, ...

Quote:

Sorry, will 800MHz do? What about a 1GHz Snapdragon (currently shipping in a phone!).

Where is the link to a main-board with specs, prices ...

Quote:

You obviously haven't seen who are going to be making them.

going to be making them ??

That means they don't exists !

Sorry I want to see a ARM board that could compete with the SAM440 and the Sam440 is available.

Show me a link to something AVAILABLE.

Tha has specs that could compete with the SAM440

Last edited by Arko on 21-Jul-2009 at 12:54 PM.

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AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@damocles

Quote:

damocles wrote: Let me point out something: 1. Dual core Cortex-9A is do out early 2010. I think that should put it into SAM440 class, if not to a higher level then the SAM440.

AFAIK there are already 2GHz ARMs around, but what is missing is a simple main-board, here are some AOS4 fans who tell Hyperion they should go to ARM, but they could not post a link to an existing system.

So why should Hyperion switch to ARM if there are no existing motherboards ?
As long as there are only CPUs you can use them for decorative purpose, but not for an OS.

Today it would make more sense if Hyperion would support some Mac PPC hardware, if they have done this, they will have enough time to port AOS4 somewhere else.

Quote:

2. What your reference to with Genesi EFIKA MX Dev Edition, that is a netbook mobo ...

I know, but the board sold now, is not meant to be a consumer board, I don't blame Genesi for the price, but a Sam440 is cheaper for customers today.

Last edited by Arko on 21-Jul-2009 at 01:07 PM.
Last edited by Arko on 21-Jul-2009 at 12:57 PM.

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AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@Arko

Uhm, the OMAP35xx family used in the beagle board has a fairly high spec GPU onchip. So again, why do you need PCI?


Oh, and it doesn't need the "right" byte ordering. Anyone who doesn't know how to write endian-agnostic software shouldn't BE a programmer in the first place

Last edited by olegil on 21-Jul-2009 at 01:00 PM.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@Leo
Quote:

Leo wrote: I don't care about the platform as long as it's fast enough and cheap.

Not me. I care a lot about the platform.

Quote:

All (not most) people buy x86 because it's cheap and fast.

Or because they have to. I have an x86 only because of a game which runs only on Windows.

Quote:

That's the common point. Amiga users bought the AOne/Sam/whatever because it runs AmigaOS, not because it's cool, fast, cheap,...

No, I bought it also because it runs on defined hardware. I want to learn about it, try to make programs go faster, etc.

Quote:

If AmigaOS was running on x86, current Amiga users would also run it. Most of them already have a PC (or mac) anyway.

Not me. I wouldn't run it on my x86. As soon as I would start optimizing my sw for my setup, people would start complaining why I'm focusing only on it and not making sure my programs run on every setup. And anyway, most probably, AmigaOS would not run on my setup since it would have some unsupported hw.

Varthall

_________________
AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram

@olegil

Quote:

olegil wrote: @Arko Uhm, the OMAP35xx family used in the beagle board has a fairly high spec GPU onchip. So again, why do you need PCI?

AFAIK the beagle board has no IDE/ATA/ SATA c ontroller without it ... sorry but I don't see a reason to explain why a board with limited RAM limited expansions and limited interfaces is just crab compared with the Sam440.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@Varthall

Quote:

I have an x86 only because of a game which runs only on Windows

The Answer is [Yes] that you do have x86.


Quote:

No, I bought it also because it runs on defined hardware.

yea sure than have a look here for more jokes like "why did the turkey cross the road?"
http://www.jokesforfree.com/index.php?sbjoke_id=519

Amiga Wants to Go next level up not 100 level back we want current market not dead market thats why we never got any better and i do agree with #Leo that x86 will be the most secure market to get in since we dont have strong HW behind amiga just use whats out there not dead ppc market.

_________________
http://aros-exec.org/

http://serk118.blogspot.com/

@Arko

Oh, but I agree on the ATA/SATA/RAM part. I just objected to the PCI part.

With on-chip GPU, what do you insist on PCI for?

Hmm, lack of ATA was actually one of the biggest reasons why I didn't go for the OMAP35xx family myself. Seems almost none of the devices targetted for handheld devices in the sub-2W range come with CF interfaces anymore.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

Quote:

Actually it's available on the open market, it's called the 750CL.

Wii uses Broadway which isn't a 750CL... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadway_(microprocessor)

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@-pekr-

Quote:

Amiga Inc. does not deserve anything but bashing, for what they did to Amiga platform. I worked for 4years for Amiga review, Czech Amiga news, so I think I had rather good insight into the situation. Well, as Amiga is not much important for me last 8 years, I might forgot some things. But - this is how I remember it:

Even if they didn't seem to keen on the real Amiga, whatever was left of it, they were around with the release of OS3.9 and OS4.0. OS3.5? So it is unknown if anything could have happened without them. Obviously something could have happened since Amiga just seemed to be delegating to get us off their backs, but no one took the initiative, since everybody expected an "Amiga, Inc." company to do it. What a waste of time!

Quote:

- x86 was not meant for AOS! It was meant for AA SDK and Matrox gfx card was required. I know it, because I am owner of AA1 SDK and I bought Matrox at that time

I bought AA1 too. And gave it away because I got some free voucher. Can't fathom why I prefered to have a useless piece of paper instead of some software, and when I gave the AA SDK away (Part Pack) they wouldn't even let me keep the stickers. I wont be giving away x86 "Amiga" software again!

But, back to your point, although they called it OS5, we know it wasn't an AmigaOS. But. AmigaOS was in trouble, no VM, no multi-threading (still doesn't), no SMP. They wanted to replace it. But is that idea so bad even if it repels us? Look at MacOSX, OSX is as much a MacOS as OS5 would be an AmigaOS.

Quote:

- other x86 relation might come from initial plan to support Amithlon, which then Amiga Inc. abandoned, clearly because they feared the competition! That was another stupid move on their side!

Windows? Amithlon would have been good as a sandbox emulation on x86, but not as a full term solution. Mid term possibly.

Quote:

- Amiga was not all that open! They wanted Genesi to prevent AOS to be ported to their PPC HW. Is your memory so shalow?!

Of course! It wasn't an OS4 machine and by that time they were the enemy. Do you remember when bPlan were suppying their hardware, which I believe became the Pegasos, as the bPlan AmigaOne?

Quote:

They wanted to block it in both HW level (special chip was supposed to be on the MB) and also licence-wise. This was so stupid, that being a shareholder, I would sack person who came up with such a nonsense, which goes against the core business - to sell AOS for various HW. There was way too much hatred between the red and blue sides, which helped to ruin the oportunities.

It was their cut. If OS4 was to be made they wanted something out of it. Anyway the special chip is only a BIOS. But what has changed? Amiga is still meant to be supplying licenses and Hyperion makes OS4 bootable on a Pegasos! I hope that Adam guy gives up on Amiga and talks to Hyperion about getting OS4 working on his 2Ghz PowerPC machine.

Quote:

- Once again - the reason to not port to x86, was two sided - technical effort, and business protection - nor Amiga Inc., nor Genesi wanted to port to x86 back at that time, because of those two reasons. Besides that, there is nothing really bad to support own companies/developers, but there was too much political agenda involved ...

By this stage there was MorphOS. And they wanted that to be the official AmigaOS. I can see why they lost out. It was based on the include files like AROS, not built on the actual source code like OS4. Actually all 3 are mostly built off OS3.1! Having MorphOS as the offical OS4 would be like having AROS as the offical AmigaOS x86. The crux is it isn't built off the offical source code so no one wants that as "the" NG AmigaOS system.

Quote:

PPC was viable decision in 1996, in Escom times, when Haynie, Kittel and possibly others helped to define the transition. Later on, PPC was logically choosen by Phase5. It might be logical some 5-8 years ago, but I doubt it is viable platform today.

Do you even realise that even with a customised PowerPC computer Hyperion have brought AmigaOS closer to x86 than ever before!

Think about this, my A1 has a typical cheap VGA card and sound card, in a PC case! Hyperion made that possible. Without AmigaOS4 on PowerPC there would be no chance at all for any AmigaOS x86 of any type!

I can see you want to take the next step.

Quote:

Isn't AOS ported to PegasosII already? This is one of few PPC boards it runs on. So how can't such a vendor be potentially important for the OS vendor? Genesi clearly goes ARM way, Freescale too to some extent. The more potential boards avaialble, the better for the OS itself ...

Yes it's on the Pegasos. But my point was about MorphOS. Not who made the machines. If there won't be a MorphOS ARM, why do you think there will be an AmigaOS4 ARM?

I can see the jokes already! PowerPC on one arm, at Hyperion, AmigaOS4 on their other ARM.

Quote:

I am not sure I want to continue in this discussion, as we might be slightly off topic here, no? I think I made my arguments clear enough, so did others

Yes, we've made a few points.

Quote:

My wish is AOS to be ported to some nice ARM or x86 based netbook, then I might buy it. ARM might be more logical and business protective solution than x86. But I am not going to put my money in any PPC board. Call me stupid, but that is my decision ....

I will if it's decent enough. And better than this 2Ghz PC with only 512MB DDR RAM behind me. Hmmm, okay, a laptop will do. Those green PowerPC lappers sounded interesting for a while...

Last edited by Hypex on 21-Jul-2009 at 03:08 PM.

@Arko

Quote:

AFAIK there are already 2GHz ARMs around, but what is missing is a simple main-board, here are some AOS4 fans who tell Hyperion they should go to ARM, but they could not post a link to an existing system. So why should Hyperion switch to ARM if there are no existing motherboards ? As long as there are only CPUs you can use them for decorative purpose, but not for an OS.

Some issues for arm to overcome: ARM netbooks struggle with video, apps

Link to the full story

Engineers designing a new generation of ARM/Linux-based netbooks are struggling with two issues crucial to the success of the systems--the platform's poor support for Web video and its fragmented software base.
The results of their work will determine whether the $200 systems expected to ship starting this fall establish a significant new class of computers or frustrate users and create a market backlash.

The top problems are twofold: Adobe Flash--the underpinning of most Web video--does not yet run natively the ARM processor, and the half dozen variants of mobile Linux available for ARM do not support any standard for how they run applications.

Separately, many Web video sites are transitioning from Flash to the H.264 codec already supported in most ARM-based chips. But that also requires significant work on wrappers and software frameworks for transferring and playing H.264 video over the Web, he said.

"Units coming this fall will have a risk of being slightly underpowered, though they could have a good user experience," said Berkowitz. "The parts coming next year will eliminate that problem and make platforms very impressive," he added.

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@serk118

Quote:

serk118 wrote: @Varthall Quote: I have an x86 only because of a game which runs only on Windows The Answer is [Yes] that you do have x86.

The quoted sentence was "All (not most) people buy x86 because it's cheap and fast.", and my comment was "not true" :)

Quote:

Quote: No, I bought it also because it runs on defined hardware. yea sure than have a look here for more jokes like "why did the turkey cross the road?" http://www.jokesforfree.com/index.php?sbjoke_id=519

So, if he didn't cross the road, he wouldn't have bought a PPC Amiga as well? :)

Quote:

Amiga Wants to Go next level up not 100 level back we want current market not dead market thats why we never got any better and i do agree with #Leo that x86 will be the most secure market to get in since we dont have strong HW behind amiga just use whats out there not dead ppc market.

No problem with that, what I wanted to say it's that I'm not interested in that path.

Varthall

Last edited by Varthall on 21-Jul-2009 at 07:09 PM.

_________________
AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram

Quote:

No problem with that, what I wanted to say it's that I'm not interested in that path.

The thing is anywhere else you go there's a wall. There is no other path. If you want to push the Amiga forward for though. If you only want backward stuff, there is plenty of other paths indeed...

Btw I'm pretty 95% of Mac users wouldn't see a difference between an intel Mac and a PowerPC Mac... Because no one cares about that. An OS is an OS. Wether it runs on x86 or on 6502. Linux is not better on PPC than on x86. Just like AmigaOS isn't better on PPC than on 68k. And the same as AmigaOS is not worst on x86 than on PPC...

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Leo

Quote:

Wii uses Broadway which isn't a 750CL...

You say that like you know its a fact...

from wikipedia

Quote:

PowerPC 750CL 750CL is an evolved 750CXe, with speeds ranging from 400 MHz to 1 GHz with a system bus up to 240 MHz, L2 cache prefetch features and graphics related instructions have been added to improve performance. As the added graphics-related functions match closely the ones found in the Gekko processor it is very likely that the 750CL is a shrink of the same processor for general purpose use. The 750CL is manufactured using a 90 nm copper based fabrication with Low-K dielectric and Silicon on insulator technology. It has 20 million transistors and the die is 16 mm² small. It draws up to 2.7 W at 600 MHz, 9.8 W at 1 GHz. Broadway This Broadway processor is manufactured in East Fishkill, NY, but it's packaged in IBM's plant in Canada, hence the text on the metal cover. It is believed but not confirmed that the processor in the Nintendo Wii game console is either a 750CL or a modified version of it. For instance, it runs at reported 729 MHz, a frequency not supported by stock 750CL. It measures only 4.2 x 4.5 mm (18.9 mm²). This is smaller than half the size of the "Gekko" microprocessor (43 mm²) incorporated in the GameCube at its first release. The chip may contain more instructions or higher SIMD support similar to the modifications made to the Gekko off the base 750CXe.

so i'm pretty sure you cant be sure and if you are you're mistaken

_________________

@Hypex

Quote:

Think about this, my A1 has a typical cheap VGA card and sound card, in a PC case! Hyperion made that possible. Without AmigaOS4 on PowerPC there would be no chance at all for any AmigaOS x86 of any type!

An A1200 in a tower case with a voodoo3 and a sb live meets all your criteria but can do so with OS3.1, the only thing os4 does is remove the dependency the on custom chips and this could have been done without a move to power pc. obviously there is a lot more to os4 than removing dependencies but thats all thats relevant in this context.

ignore me though, im just being pedantic.

me nails my flag to the powerpc fence and sits down in a corner.

_________________

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote: Quote: No problem with that, what I wanted to say it's that I'm not interested in that path. The thing is anywhere else you go there's a wall. There is no other path. If you want to push the Amiga forward for though. If you only want backward stuff, there is plenty of other paths indeed...

I haven't ready followed the thread, so I can't comment on this. I only hope that what you're saying will not be true...

Quote:

Btw I'm pretty 95% of Mac users wouldn't see a difference between an intel Mac and a PowerPC Mac... Because no one cares about that. An OS is an OS. Wether it runs on x86 or on 6502.

The biggest difference between a PPC and an x86 Mac is that the latter can be run natively on a self-made x86 box, without the need to buy a Mac. I hope that more than 5% of the Mac users would be aware of that.

Quote:

Linux is not better on PPC than on x86.

Linux already runs on many architectures, ubiquity has been one of its main focuses, so there's no point in talking about Linux being tailor-suited and sold *only* with a specific hardware.

Quote:

Just like AmigaOS isn't better on PPC than on 68k.

Of course not, they both run on specific hardware :)

Quote:

And the same as AmigaOS is not worst on x86 than on PPC...

I'm not talking about one version of AmigaOS being better or worse than the other, but rather in terms what one version of AmigaOS is closer to what one wants.

Varthall

_________________
AmigaOne XE - AmigaOS 4.1 - Freescale 7457 1GHz - 1GB ram

@Varthall

Quote:

The biggest difference between a PPC and an x86 Mac is that the latter can be run natively on a self-made x86 box, without the need to buy a Mac. I hope that more than 5% of the Mac users would be aware of that.

I have found 2 difference that matter to me in real everyday life:

1) In PPC favour - You can run the Mac Classic version of Settlers 2 on a PPC Mac but not an Intel Mac!

2) In favour of Intel - Intel Macs can boot off an external USB hardrive whereas PPC Macs are limited to only booting off an external firewire drive. Useful to know for backup purposes. Sadly, I have an USB drive so expect to only be able to reformat a new drive with a disk image if my hard drive goes down, rather than booting off a clone of my MacOSX disk striaght away if I had a firewire drive! Intel Macs can boot off either

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios