@Frek

Quote:

MorphOS was on the right track- but so far it seems it's nothing more than a name... (but anyway; that's what I said earlier Apple are the only ones implementing it afaik) isolate the "old environment" in a sandbox, basically moving the entire thing up one level in the abstraction layer.

Were all the 68k programs on MorphOS bunched together in a shared sandbox or did they each have their own 68k API/Exec sandbox?

I didn't like the way the new library system worked on OS4 with it's interfaces as normal Amiga code couldn't compile out of the box and there had to be one more allocation and check, still now complicating Amiga cross ports where this has to be added in.

But, I think I like the MorphOS native calling method even less. Fill a structure with substitute 68k registers and then pass it a function and what 68k offset you need. Well, that's not exactly forward thinking, if native MorphOS apps have to call the MorphOS API that way!

Last edited by Hypex on 27-Jul-2009 at 05:48 PM.

@BigD

Oh no ! More port on Mac PPC

Please it has already been stated the "secret project" is not of that kind, pages and pages ago !

PS: oh and please can you also nag Apple because I'd really like to see them port MacOS on my Sagem my-X7 phone. Yeah why should I spend more than 200 Euros on an IPhone just to use MacOS ???

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@Arko

Quote:

Or have generated an PPC-Linux hosted AmigaOS system so the system might be enabled for PPC-Macs and IBM workstations.

Oh no! Everytime it seems I have my AmigaOne at an Amiga meeting AmigaOS4 gets accused of running on Linux! I don't know why people think OS4 runs on Linux.

Is it because Debian Woody at the start has given OS4 a bad image? Or do these pepole do no research about OS4? Have they tried to actually run OS4 on a PowerPC Mac with Linux? Some people! And they know whan an Amiga is would you believe?

Last edited by Hypex on 27-Jul-2009 at 05:49 PM.

Quote:

Were all the 68k programs on MorphOS bunched together in a shared sandbox or did they each have their own 68k API/Exec sandbox?

MorphOS has a modern kernel with modern features. On top of that, they implemented a sandbox called A/Box that implements AmigaOS API and extends it. Inside this box, everything runs, with shared memory: emulated 68k applications, and MorphOS PPC applications.

Another, modern, sandbox was supposed to be developped, and take advantage of the modern kernel. Unfortunately, its development has been abandonned in favour of the A/Box.

So in the end, any program can bring down the whole OS, much like in OS4. But the big difference is that the foundation for a more modern OS is already there. And working, since, the A/Box relies on it...

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@Leo

ExecSG is also a "modern kernel" with "modern features".

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@Hypex

Quote:

I didn't like the way the new library system worked on OS4 with it's interfaces as normal Amiga code couldn't compile out of the box

What are you talking about?

To compile a old program you type:

gcc my_old_porg.c -o my_old_prog.exe -D__USE_INLINE__ -lauto

and it will work whit no changes to the code!
(only If you write a librarie or an device then you will need some changes.)

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@Hyperionmp

Quote:

ExecSG is also a "modern kernel" with "modern features".

Disabled "modern" features you mean?

@abalaban

Quote:

Oh no ! More port on Mac PPC

Well go shoot yourself in the foot then. What is the easiest (debatable depending on getting Apple hardware sources - but reverse engineering could work), quickest and best way to get more AmigaOS4.1 users RIGHT NOW?!!!!

ANS: PORT THE PILE OF 1s and 0s to an Apple Mac PPC!!!!!!!

It's a non-brainer and all your sorry speculation about smart phones and AmigaOS is like a a pipe dream in comparison. Hyperion is as short sighted as the rest of you! Pegasus/Classic PPC ports are a COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME IN THE LONG RUN!! They allow a v small elite group of peopple to run OS4.1 and the resource time would have been better spent reverse engineering the iBook and Mac Mini hardware. 'Nuff said. Obviously you want Hyperion to go bust and for Amiga Inc. to bring out a line of Amiga branded tooth brushes because that's the way this is going!!!!!

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@Hyperionmp

Quote:

Hyperionmp wrote: @Leo ExecSG is also a "modern kernel" with "modern features".

Leo is talking about the Quark (kernel),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark_(kernel)

its comparable to how AROS hosted is running on top of Linux.
But in this case its A/Box that runs on top Quark.

The idea was that old legacy API was suppose to be running in A/Box (jump tables Amiga shared memory infrastructure). While a new API was to be designed called Q/Box, this was going to become the modern API whit full memory protection and SMP support etc, but development stopped or never started.

Q/box is is what people call Vaporware, planed product that never metalized to become what it was intended to become.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Jul-2009 at 08:09 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

I consider quark (the kernel) is vapor as well, there's no signs of it doing anything but fundamental exception handling. And even if it did implement all features listed- it really means nothing as there are no public interfaces available.

@Hyperionmp


Quote:

@Leo ExecSG is also a "modern kernel" with "modern features".

Yes I agree ExecSG has some modern features, like Virtual Memory and simple memory protection, semaphores but thats all.

ExecSG also have some legacy problems dragging it down, all the open shared memory structures, programs often use shared memory structures, and there is often no alternative not using this shared memory structures directly, so basically what AmigaOS does not have is kernel space.

Having no kernel space does make it faster, but also make easier to hack or crash.

2en problem whit open shared memory structures, is that there is no locking mechanism for this structures so your left whit the only option of “turning off multitasking” while you are reading or writing to this structures, while the OS support modern features like semaphores it not used and can't be used because its not compatible whit turning off multitasking approach.

The result of turning off multitasking for short periods of time, is tiny fezzes, 1 program stopping every thing for too long, whit the result that Audio, USB and other important drivers can can't keep up whit hardware or the data being streamed, as shared memory list structures become larger the problem increases, because programs use more and more time in open list strictures to find what its looking for.

2en thing Amiga does not have is multi CPU core support, it can't run on two CPU's while most other modern operating systems can.

I think many Amiga users like to see a ExecSG2 whit improvements in this areas.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Jul-2009 at 09:03 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Jul-2009 at 09:01 PM.

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@Frek


Quote:

I consider quark (the kernel) is vapor as well,

I can't say that because then I will be stamped as troll for good.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 27-Jul-2009 at 09:06 PM.

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Why buy products discontinued by Apple and get amiga stuck in ppc dead market..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_products_discontinued_by_Apple_Inc.

why do you think apple gone for x86? & discontinue ppc macs??? and some of you people want to buy dead macs to run AmigaOS4.0. Apple is still make`ing money coz we amigans will buy the dead ppcmacs (lol)..

No thanks to mac or arm or any phone or other pda`s or slow sam

if anybody want to make different in this comminity than go x86 the market is there all we need amigaos4 to be port`ed. if thats not possible coz we can not boot than use linux to boot again like done in sam i think but still macs are wrong way to go for and no HW going to be cheaper than x86 HW or Speed up Sam but not 667mhz thats= todays silly phones faster than sam.

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@BigD

I think you misunderstood me a bit (it should be due to the bad choice of the sample I took about Apple and phones) : I never said porting AOS 4.x to smart phone or PDA would be a better solution (despite I must admit the Amigan-geek in me would find it very neat and cool ). I just think that for now AmigaOS 4.x is NOT ready for general market, nobody outside this small community would be interested in AmigaOS 4 given the current software state : not one of the common application they are used to have is currently running under AmigaOS 4 and for many of them there is not even a viable alternative. I think the best for now would be to get interest from current users/developpers (upto a certain degree maybe some ex-amigans might also get touched) so that the available software offer could increase just to the minimal point where it can drain interested from common user. And then at that point only it would be a wise idea to spread to other architectures, but not before.

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Now dreaming AOS 4.2...
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@BigD

~uninformed speculation mode on~

Maybe the reason OS4 is currently tied to the hardware that it is could be because while its come to a point where its perfectly ready for experienced amiga users to appreciate and they are the only ones who will be willing to buy or already own the hardware.

It was pretty clear in the recent review on OSNews.com that when viewed from the outside, Amiga OS4.1 looks a bit out dated and the things that make it as good as it is are hidden to most behind what seems like an old interface so maybe the plan is to keep it within the community until new features have been added to make it more acceptable to those outside the community who expect certain modern features from their OS that currently are not implemented or enabled in Amiga OS as if it were released to the wider world in its current state it could get a bad reputation for not being modern enough and it would cause a lot of people to ignore it where as if its released later with more features that people expect it would get better reviews and attract more users in the long term. Only then would a release on PPC Mac hardware make sense.

This is assuming there are any plans to expand the enthusiast market beyond the current amiga community but it seems illogical to ignore this market if a port to apple hardware is possible as it could bring in a lot more money than it would cost to port i expect.

~uninformed speculation mode off~

~unrealistic mode on~

Amiga OS should be ported to run on the original iMacs or G4 DA so i can buy it and run it on hardware i have

~unrealistic mode off~

I have faith that Hyperion have a business plan that looks good to them and that they are doing what seems best to them so I'll wait and hope i can afford to run amiga OS 4.x at some point in the near future but i don't think i will ever be able to spend £400 for a motherboard for what would really just be a toy although im happy there is some hardware available its just not for me. a port to mac ppc hardware would suit me but some other cheap hardware would be just as welcome, i think £200 for a motherboard would be my limit as soon as im back in work (credit crunch got me) I have enough of everything else to so don't need a complete system.

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If the secret project is none of the aforementioned in this very thread, there are fews possibility that the amiga followers will like the project.

Now i'm guided by my curiosity only, not really think that we will see exciting projects.

Last edited by amitv on 27-Jul-2009 at 11:03 PM.
Last edited by amitv on 27-Jul-2009 at 11:02 PM.

@TheMaskedMuchacho

Quote:

Amiga OS should be ported to run on the original iMacs or G4 DA so i can buy it and run it on hardware i have

yea why not Hyperion port AOS4 to iMacs or G4 DA so my matey @TheMaskedMuchacho got one and he wants to run AOS4 on macs.(lol)

Quote:

if a port to apple hardware is possible as it could bring in a lot more money..

well i personaly dont want to have 4 computers in one room or dont have space for 4 and macs hw is also discontinued since they are gone x86 and are you going to look for newer HW by next year? yes you will coz old secondhand macs will be too slooow by next year...



*****think of ahead not just today****

Last edited by serk118 on 27-Jul-2009 at 11:35 PM.

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@serk118

Quote:

Why buy products discontinued by Apple and get amiga stuck in ppc dead market..

Well, an old, used iBook G4 is a heck of a lot better than that shiny new laptop for sale special designed for us Amiga users... And better than those two units of some low-end PPC laptop on ebay recently.

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@serk118

Quote:

yes you will coz old secondhand macs will be too slooow by next year...

Rest assured they're still faster than the Sam, have no problem playing DVDs and can run Word, Powerpoint, Excel and Open Office/Apple equivalents, iLife, iTunes and Audacity.Beat that Amiga Beta board! The only way I'll try OS4.1 is on an iBook!! I don't care they don't make iBooks any more, they don't make Classic PPC cards or Pegasos computers any more, but it hasn't stopped an AmigaOS port being released! Sam440EP/Flex don't have Altivec are only compatible with Radeon 9200 max, and run at a maximum of 750Mhz!!! That isn't anywhere near a 2005 iBook!

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@serk118

I dont like your mocking tone in response to my self proclaimed unrealistic proposal sir

One thing people fail to see when they claim porting to x86 is the only thing to do is that there may be no market beyond us, the current amiga faithful plus a few curious on lookers (who would probably want to try it for free) and i dont think could cover the costs involved in porting. they clearly have a plan for PPC and i seriously dont think the 2000 possible sales we can provide has anything to do with it, there is probably a bigger picture we know nothing about.

if they have a good plan for PowerPC then X86 (or x64) doest seem to make sound business sense, BeOS couldnt survive on x86, OS2 couldnt survive on x86 in fact very few operating systems do survive. the cost of porting to x86 would probably never be recovered and due to having to halt the features of the OS while undertaking the long period required to port and the poor reception it would get by none amiga reviewers once released due to not having the features of other OS's you could run on the same hardware would probably kill hyperion and amiga OS for good.

Although i would love a port to mac hardware its very unlikely it would be to any of the macs I have. it would at least mean i could afford some hardware to run OS4.x the chances of it happening at all may be very very slim due to lack of hardware documentation but afaik the last time any of the devs mentioned that was a few years ago so who knows but im not holding my breath. I would even love an x86 port for cost reasons but that seems even more unrealistic.

They have a working system, adding to what is there should be priority, making it stable, replacing out of date areas and improving things in general on the PPC architecture, they clearly have a plan and i hope it pays them well for their efforts.

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