@brotsalami

402 Minimig users is appalling considering the potential of the product. It just shows that without a marketing budget you're right we can't even let the rest of the world what the Amiga's potential is never mind sell them one!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@yoodoo2

I couldn't agree more. Great said.



Oh and I just for the record I agree with olegil, OldFart, and the rest of the bunch who are actually at least trying to look at this whole affair from a reality point of view.

Last edited by Teddy on 31-Jul-2009 at 01:50 PM.

_________________
You can crack anything with your head, even the head itself.
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...proud AOS user since 1993
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@Teddy

I think there should be a new diagnosis of craziness called Amiga-weliveon anotherplanetandwilldoitourownway - disease!!

It is not realistic to expect the Amiga platform to limp on maintaining even 3,000 users into the next five years with minimal focus or PLAN beyond "get it ported to x86"!!!!!

And if ACube or Hyperion go bust will you wait another 8 years for another platform with Amiga roots?

Last edited by BigD on 31-Jul-2009 at 01:58 PM.
Last edited by BigD on 31-Jul-2009 at 01:52 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

According to their compagny profile:

Other projects the company was involved in over the years include writing a software rendering engine for Monolith (developers of Shogo and N.O.L.F.), adapting the U-Boot firmware for use on the AmigaOne desktop system, assisting Smiths Aerospace (now a division of GE Aviation) with expertise in low-level 3D graphics programming and providing IT consultancy services to Belgium’s leading mobile phone operator.

So they have skills in areas of
- 3d engines
- amigaos
- cell phones

Usualy, a compagny doesn't move in a single step into a new area of knowledge (or they have bought some other compagnies in order to do this).

So my guess is the amazing project is something around bringing an amigaos for cell phones, containing a 3d rendering engine, and why not some UAE enabled games (i remember that in first days, hyperion had done a 3d engine kind of stuff for amigaanywhere, but due to money dispute, the 3d engine was not delivered, but some devs saw screenshots of this engine).

This is a plan that would seems reasonable for me.

I can even imagine that the italian compagny will build some kind of cell phones and work closely with hyperion in order to build a nice phone embedded with some kind of low consumption PPC or whatever mobile processor for cell phone. If the Italians managed to build a motherboard, they can manage to build a cell phone motherboard too;)

Although, I am expecting from them an x86 port of the OS (and I'll be the first one to buy os4), bring flash/air plugins (really important those days), as long as a new and better network stack.

Last edited by DC_Edge on 31-Jul-2009 at 02:18 PM.
Last edited by DC_Edge on 31-Jul-2009 at 02:15 PM.
Last edited by DC_Edge on 31-Jul-2009 at 02:14 PM.

@BigD

Hmmm. Look at my signature. What do you think? OS3.9 was released somewhere around December 2000 - I bought it some weeks later. I ordered my SAM440EP with OS4.1 in September 2008 - some time after the official announcement.
Believe it or not - i really waited patiently for almost 8 years. I can do that again. Pancakes.

BTW: I have a rule - I only use AmigaOS' with odd numbers. So i use(d) 1.3, 2.1, 3.1, 3.5, 3.9 and 4.1.

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X1000|II/G4|440ep|2000/060|2000/040|1000

@yoodoo2

Quote:

The target for a desktop AmigaOS surely has to be people with a large "emotional" attachment to Amiga - ie people who upgraded their machines in the 1990s, had fun with unusual hardware and interesting software and who don't mind paying out to support their hobby.

Thanks to those emotionally attached users Amiga Inc is still alive and other companies not

Whatever, why Amiga market collapsed in 90s despite of those users throwing money at their Amiga hobby?

Last edited by itix on 31-Jul-2009 at 02:25 PM.

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@BigD

Quote:

@Teddy I think there should be a new diagnosis of craziness called Amiga-weliveon anotherplanetandwilldoitourownway - disease!! It is not realistic to expect the Amiga platform to limp on maintaining even 3,000 users into the next five years with minimal focus or PLAN beyond "get it ported to x86"!!!!! And if ACube or Hyperion go bust will you wait another 8 years for another platform with Amiga roots?

Ooouukeeeeyyy?

And have you even bothered to read my previous posts or are you just making some assumptions again?

I said that the Amiga scene, as is, can't be self sufficiant, so Hyperion must find some other way to earn money outside our little community.

You seem to imply that Hyperion have no plan whatsoever, and that they operate just for the sake of it, without any way to actually know that for a fact.
It is NOT realistic to expect all the things you expect from such small companies like Hyperion and ACube are. They have done plenty, considering the circumstance.

And what you seem to don't understand or just don't want to accept is, if there was no Hyperion and the developers there would be no AmigaOS today.
So would you like that scenario more? I know I wouldn't.

_________________
You can crack anything with your head, even the head itself.
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...proud AOS user since 1993
--------------------------------

@BigD

Quote:

You're deluded if you think 3,000 people can sustain software development of the Amiga, never mind hardware develelopment!

No I'm not. Proof? I bought my A1 back in 2002. Seven years later and there is a new hardware platform and continued development of Amiga software, both OS and apps. Will the cycle go round for another 7 years? I don't know, but something does not need to be mass-marketable to be be worthwhile or even, dare I say it, fun.

Proof 2: my other favourite computer is the Oric-1/Atmos. About 7 years older than the Amiga, far less popular and much more niche. Guess what - people are still creating Oric-based hardware and software. Not in huge quantities, not in a mass market, but it happens, and it's fun. Exactly the same happens in other areas: niche hobbies run by small communities on outdated/old-fashioned technology. Hobbys are about enjoying something and don't necessarily entail a huge financial reward or huge userbase for the "parent" company.

The delusion is to expect Amiga to be a big player in any real world situation whatsoever. A dedicated niche hobby is where it could find a viable future. The big problem here is that Hyperion have obviously a lot of money to recoup and Amiga Inc are still hanging around ( I presume).

Quote:

You'll be stuck with sub-1ghz PPC hardware for the forseeable future if you don't try and develop a machine(embedded industrial design or otherwise)/OS to target a specific MARKET!!

And?

What on earth do I need more than 1ghz for? I don't need/want to play complex games or raytrace or edit videos on my Amiga. Furthermore, it might be far better to develop a very low end board (sub 400MHz) and then offload "grunt work" to a GPU or a Cell-based PCI accelerator card.

I don't have a clue as to what other markets ACube or Hyperion have in mind or indeed whether any sales have been made. Let's assume they don't and try to figure out whether a viable desktop-based ecosystem can be based on 3,000 or so users. I think it can, providing the 3,000 are happy to pull their weight, either by buying what is available, supporting developers or contributing in other ways they can (eg moderating websites/writing for magazines etc).

Quote:

Imagine going on dragon's den with a Sam & OS4.1!!!! Try and justify its existance! In the cold, hard light of day you've got to think of this as a business!

This is clearly not a suitable investment for Dragon's Den. But think of how much money is ploughed into sports clubs (especially football) by rich entrepreneurs who want a bit of fun and to have their egos stroked. I can guarranttee that if there were any multi-millionaire Amigans here, there would be a lot more funding floating around, quite possibly without strings attached or any real expectation of making a huge profit.

"In the cold light of day" an awful lot of businesses are run as a lifestyle choice by people who want to make a moderate living but be in more control of their destiny and lifestlye than if they were working for someone else. Businesses do not need to make huge fortunes to survive, they do need to break even.

I could easily formulate a viable break-even business plan based on 3000 active users/customers. It would assume a certain level of financial committment from the users, a certain level of unpaid support from community based developers and a rather slow rate of development at times, especially in non-essential areas. Sound familiar?

_________________
Happiness is mandatory.
MindSpace: MindMaps and UML diagrams for OS4

We ran 5 Recursion Computer Fairs before hitting the exit condition

@Teddy

Quote:

So would you like that scenario more? I know I wouldn't.

Of course not! It is just extremely frustrating to own PPC hardware faster than any Amiga compatible hardware ever sold (an iBook 933Mhz) and yet Hyperion expect me to 'downgrade' to a Sam to even get a chance to try it to see whether I still like a modernish implementation of AmigaOS! It is highly risky asking for such an outlay and even more risky to pump the money into AmigaOS in the first place. Windows 7 and MacOS Snow Leopard are optisisations of previo.us versions more than new feature sets and as such will make the seemingly efficient AmigaOS less of a selling point!! What is the unique selling point of this OS?

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@itix

Quote:

Thanks to those emotionally attached users Amiga Inc is still alive and other companies not Whatever, why Amiga market collapsed in 90s despite of those users throwing money at their Amiga hobby?

Because, even back than it was hard to sustain the Amiga market as it was?
Because Commodore had a bunch of idiots as Management Team?
Because you need a lot of money, and I mean a lot of it, in order do develop something new and different that is going to be competitive?

_________________
You can crack anything with your head, even the head itself.
--------------------------------
...proud AOS user since 1993
--------------------------------

@BugD

Oh? And what resources does Microsoft and Apple have?
And Hyperion?

Is that telling you something?

Last edited by Teddy on 31-Jul-2009 at 03:03 PM.
Last edited by Teddy on 31-Jul-2009 at 03:01 PM.

_________________
You can crack anything with your head, even the head itself.
--------------------------------
...proud AOS user since 1993
--------------------------------

@itix

Quote:

Whatever, why Amiga market collapsed in 90s despite of those users throwing money at their Amiga hobby?

You mean other companies besides Commodore? They presumably saw easier/more profit on other platforms. The smaller, flexible companies continued to operate and some carry on even today - (Indivudal Computers, ElBox etc) and they still cater for enthusiasts with a little bit of money to spend on a niche hobby. What hasn't survived is the slew of "cheap and cheerful" companies who try to make a fast buck out of a mass market.

The whole point of my reasoning is that a large "commodity" market is unsustainable - therefore companies have to focus on being adaptable and aim at a small, specialist market. I know of 3 companies who make a moderate living supplying specialist parts to steam-engine enthusiasts in the UK. Not a mass market, certainly not "cutting edge", but a viable hobbyist eco-system.

_________________
Happiness is mandatory.
MindSpace: MindMaps and UML diagrams for OS4

We ran 5 Recursion Computer Fairs before hitting the exit condition

@BigD
Quote:

What is the unique selling point of this OS?

In comparison to Windows, Linux or MacOS? Not much really, but I'm not sure that AmigaOS is actually the real product here anyway.

You're buying into a fun hobby, based a little bit on nostalgia and retro-compuitng history. You'll be one of an elite group of hobbyist users. You'll be part of a small, but worldwide and generally friendly comunity who will bend over backwards to help you with your problems, discuss your hobby and generally have a good time.

If that's not for you, or you can't afford or choose not to purchase, then fine. We'll still enjoy having you around and discussing stuff with you.

_________________
Happiness is mandatory.
MindSpace: MindMaps and UML diagrams for OS4

We ran 5 Recursion Computer Fairs before hitting the exit condition

@yoodoo2

Quote:

know of 3 companies who make a moderate living supplying specialist parts to steam-engine enthusiasts in the UK. Not a mass market, certainly not "cutting edge", but a viable hobbyist eco-system.

I really don't think the Amiga holds a place in the hearts of the British public like classic steam engines do! May be the C64 does, but the Amiga is seldom even remembered by the Brit games media!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @Teddy Quote: So would you like that scenario more? I know I wouldn't. Of course not! It is just extremely frustrating to own PPC hardware faster than any Amiga compatible hardware ever sold (an iBook 933Mhz) ...

Ever though about a PegaosII ?

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@BigD

Quote:

BigD wrote: @yoodoo2 Quote: know of 3 companies who make a moderate living supplying specialist parts to steam-engine enthusiasts in the UK. Not a mass market, certainly not "cutting edge", but a viable hobbyist eco-system. I really don't think the Amiga holds a place in the hearts of the British public like classic steam engines do! May be the C64 does, but the Amiga is seldom even remembered by the Brit games media!

IMR the British and German markets where quite big, in Germany the Amiga sold better than the Macintosh ... and Commodores Image as a PC manufacturer was much better than in the US, but the C64 is more a comuter for people that likes to make theirr games by themselfes and the C64 sold 10 times more units than the Amiga.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@brotsalami

Quote:

my last and final guess, because the thread is getting boring. The inflatable Amiga, Codename: SexDoll

But then ported to sex86, I presume?

An illfated attempt to remove the shackles of boredom from this thread, for boring it rightfully is!

OldFart

_________________
More then three levels of indigestion and you're scroomed!

Quote:

The x86 stuff has been argued to death way too often already, so I'm not going to go through the reasons why it's not realistic.

Is selling a 700mhz board 800 euro, not to mention the OS which has no modern feature for 120 euro,... realistic in 2009 ?

Guess an x86 port is at least as realistic as that...

Last edited by Leo on 31-Jul-2009 at 05:34 PM.
Last edited by Leo on 31-Jul-2009 at 05:25 PM.

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@yoodoo2

Quote:

You mean other companies besides Commodore? They presumably saw easier/more profit on other platforms. The smaller, flexible companies continued to operate and some carry on even today - (Indivudal Computers, ElBox etc) and they still cater for enthusiasts with a little bit of money to spend on a niche hobby. What hasn't survived is the slew of "cheap and cheerful" companies who try to make a fast buck out of a mass market.

But this is not true

Quote:

The whole point of my reasoning is that a large "commodity" market is unsustainable - therefore companies have to focus on being adaptable and aim at a small, specialist market. I know of 3 companies who make a moderate living supplying specialist parts to steam-engine enthusiasts in the UK. Not a mass market, certainly not "cutting edge", but a viable hobbyist eco-system.

Sure, I am watching at Clone-A project in case I need spare parts for my Amiga 500.

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@Teddy

Quote:

Because, even back than it was hard to sustain the Amiga market as it was? Because Commodore had a bunch of idiots as Management Team? Because you need a lot of money, and I mean a lot of it, in order do develop something new and different that is going to be competitive?

Today it is year 2009. What has changed?

_________________
Amiga Developer
Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook