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PosterThread
Hans 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 22:39:44
#921 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote:

The problem is we have no roadmap to where we will be in 2-3 years.


Hyperion does have a roadmap.

Quote:

If they stay with PPC where are moving forward to?


An OS with ever greater capabilities.


Quote:
What PPC hardware can we expect to be using in 2 to 3 years?


Depends on how the development of the various hardware projects progress. If AMCC's (the maker of the 440ep chip) work on the Titan processors comes to fruition, we could be using dual-core 2 GHz machines 2-3 years from now. If not, maybe Freescale's eight-core QorIQ processors might be a good candidate. They lack altivec, but there's plenty of processing power available (assuming that the OS knows how to use it).

Quote:
Will I be able to use an Amiga laptop in 2012?


Quote:
Will we finally break the 2GHZ barrier and I can do things like watch a movie?


Have a look at the Titan processors that I mentioned above. I can already watch movies on my A1 without frameskipping.

Quote:
How much will the new hardware cost?


Absolutely no idea. Given that you're talking about 2-3 years from now,

Quote:
And biggest, what plans on how will we get any more users?


That would be part of Hyperion's internal roadmap.

Quote:
I hear a lot of "Hyperion doesn't have the resources" and "Hyperion will go bankrupt in 2 years if they port it"....

So if we just stay with PPC how is that going to help them financially? How can they sell any more copies of AmigaOS? There can't be many of elite left to spend $1000 for 600mhz hardware/OS.


Well, assuming that the hardware that you were asking for above materializes, the hardware will be significantly better. If Hyperion spent the next few years working on improving the OS instead of porting it, the OS' capabilities would be much more than it is now. That would make it more appealing.

Quote:
As far as this, it's so hard to port to x86 just look at AROS. You really believe that creating a brand new OS from scratch is just plain harder to impliment on x86 vs some other CPU? I doubt it.


You've lost me here. Creating a brand new OS on any platform and getting it up to the same level as an existing OS is a lot more work than taking that existing OS and improving it.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 22:47:04
#922 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@QuikSanz

Quote:

QuikSanz wrote:
@AmigaHeretic

Hyperion HAS a road map, they are just not sharing it with us ATM.

Chris



Great. That helps us ton.






_________________
A3000D (16mhz, 2MB Chip, 4MB Fast, SCSI (300+MB), SuperGen Genlock, Kick 3.1)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Wildstar128 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 23:01:41
#923 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 178
From: Unknown

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote:
@Wildstar128

Quote:

You don't charge money for hobbies.



OK Now that we established AmigaOS4 is not a hobby OS then what kind of business sense does it make to not port to cheaper more modern hardware?


I mean the the iPhone currently is 800MHZ, the fastest Amiga desktop right now is 733mhz SAM Flex!


It's over $700(us) for just the motherboard. The iPhone comes with an OS! Screen, storage, GPS, wireless technologies, etc etc... For a fraction of the price.


No roadmap.
Crazy prices.
Utterly outdated desktop hardware.
No portable in sight.


It seems to me Hyperion are trying to be a Hardware/Software company.


We need to break away from the hardware. It's ironic that Amiga started failing because the state of the art hardware was keeping us behind, acting like an anchor as modern tech moved ahead.

Now were still tied to old hardware, but with no good reason.


There is different types of businesses and market focus. But AmigaOS often is used by the end-user for nostalgia and stuff. But isn't that what using a classic Amiga hardware and say WB3.0 is for.

It is more then just a hobby and the OS is being sold so it needs to either be free or it needs to be in market to build a sustainable user base. Does it need to be a Microsoft Windows killer - maybe not. But its an alternative OS. Amiga was introduced to be used for professional graphics and desktop publishing (professional multimedia workstation - type work) but marketed to the masses not just in the office or studio. It was in this time that the trend of doing job work at home became an important factor in life and using computers at home needed to coincide and work back and forth with computers at work. Hence why AmigaOS had Cross-DOS for handling MS-DOS as well as Amiga formatted media.

Computers at home ARE used for both entertainment & work in BOTH the home and workplace. This is what Microsoft made dominance and the mass "clone wars" was about in the late 80s and early 90s.

Where is COMPUTING today. This was what AmigaOS was about. It was competition with MacOS, Windows, ect. We can choose to be behind the 8 ball or move ahead of it. We can make revolutionary jumps and bounds without worrying about every little things inbetween. Just the important things and make the in-roads.

Is Java that important or can be look at the next generation. We need to focus on the front of the technology movement not the current or past. If you start working on what is current and porting it to Amiga, you be behind by the time you are done. Java is today/current. Don't worry about Java. If it takes 2-3 years to do something then look at what the industry movement is leading to in 3-5 years. Then move in to introduce in 2-3 years where the industry is heading to in 5 years. Be in the fore-front.

If you want to gain grounds then move forward. It is only software and you don't need to lug around something that is obsolete as being the newest thing for AmigaOS. Then you obsolete by the time you release your next version.

Ok, I'm maybe pretty harsh on the devs but if you put more progress work into Windows then you will always be behind on Amiga work. Loyalty is how much you put of yourself to something. If you put more of yourself into Windows or some other OS then you put into Amiga then your loyalty is in Windows not Amiga.

The question is, how much of yourself are you putting into Amiga, Sure progress happens but at the cost of always being too late. What user base gain.

Remember the Commodore ad song. I'll paraphrase-ish question, Are you keeping up with the Amiga or is Amiga keeping up with you? Now another paraphrase-ish question -

Are people keeping up with Amiga or is Amiga keeping up with the people.

We need vision. A road map (goal posts), Outcome evaluation at each goal post.

Where do we want to be in 5-10 years in computing. Where do we want to be with Amiga in 5-10 years. Are we keeping up with the people? Amiga was first target to the masses as to be a primary computer first of all. This is what made Amiga popular to us in the first place and not a niche market where only 1000 units ever be produced. Several million Amigas were made. Although a shadow of the C64 success but can we do better?

Visionary statements are always by nature forward-thinking statements. We need to pave roads not copy cat. Why are we sitting back in mid-90s thinking?

Just some thoughts. If you want Java on the line, then work harder to get it done while also working hard on next-generation stuff. Get that Amiga JAVA out in 12 months and the next generation out in 2-3 years from now. Get that Cloanto (whatever it is) out in 9 months. Two teams working hard. A third team starting on the next gen stuff and when team 1 & 2 is finish then join up with Team #3. Team #4 be formed working hard on drivers. Can we make 4 teams of say 20-30 devs each. Can we get 120-160 people working hard. As for pay, that can be worried about at some point or not worry about it at all. If you volunteer some of your time while having a day job to put bread on the table - that shouldn't matter. There is 24 hours a day and 7 days a week. That is 168 hours.

You spend 40 hours a week at a day job full-time. That leaves 128 hours. There is plenty of time to put a full-time schedule for Amiga development in and still have some time for food & sleep.

How much time you want to spend?

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QuikSanz 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 23:05:07
#924 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1236
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@Hans

Thank you for confirming my stance on the subject. Everybody gets so adamant as to what they want they can't see the forest from the trees so to speak.

I Myself trust that the direction chosen by the developers, Hyperion and the crew will be right.

Have a great day.

Chris

Last edited by QuikSanz on 02-Aug-2009 at 11:05 PM.

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 23:10:37
#925 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@Hans

Quote:


Hyperion does have a roadmap.


Never seen one.

Quote:


An OS with ever greater capabilities.


Great! Look at all these cool features! Still can't watch a DVD, still don't have a portable. Still costing $1000 entry point.

Quote:
What PPC hardware can we expect to be using in 2 to 3 years?


Quote:
Depends on how the development of the various hardware projects progress. If AMCC's (the maker of the 440ep chip) work on the Titan processors comes to fruition, we could be using dual-core 2 GHz machines 2-3 years from now. If not, maybe Freescale's eight-core QorIQ processors might be a good candidate. They lack altivec, but there's plenty of processing power available (assuming that the OS knows how to use it).


That is A LOT of "maybe" statements in there.

Let's base are OS on "maybe" some day there will be new hardware.


Quote:
Will I be able to use an Amiga laptop in 2012?


Quote:
Have a look at the Titan processors that I mentioned above. I can already watch movies on my A1 without frameskipping.


Great. You can watch a DVD on hardware no one can buy! I'm talking right now and 2-3 years from now.

Still nothing


Quote:
How much will the new hardware cost?


Quote:
Absolutely no idea. Given that you're talking about 2-3 years from now,



Great. Let's base our OS on not only having no idea what hardware if any there will be, lets make sure we have absolutely no idea how much it will cost either.

Quote:

That would be part of Hyperion's internal roadmap.


Again, something we have never seen.

Quote:
I hear a lot of "Hyperion doesn't have the resources" and "Hyperion will go bankrupt in 2 years if they port it"....

So if we just stay with PPC how is that going to help them financially? How can they sell any more copies of AmigaOS? There can't be many of elite left to spend $1000 for 600mhz hardware/OS.

Quote:

Well, assuming that the hardware that you were asking for above materializes, the hardware will be significantly better. If Hyperion spent the next few years working on improving the OS instead of porting it, the OS' capabilities would be much more than it is now. That would make it more appealing.


We're assuming a lot aren't we? It would have to pretty damn appealing to want to pay $1000 to run on the newest 1ghz chip with no L2!!


Quote:
As far as this, it's so hard to port to x86 just look at AROS. You really believe that creating a brand new OS from scratch is just plain harder to impliment on x86 vs some other CPU? I doubt it.


Quote:

You've lost me here. Creating a brand new OS on any platform and getting it up to the same level as an existing OS is a lot more work than taking that existing OS and improving it.


I was just responding to the people that say that it's taken AROS so long "because" it's on x86. I don't see how the CPU choice would have slowed AROS down. If they had decided originally to make AROS on ARM they would still have started from scratch and be at the same point. I don't believe x86 inherently made them slow down is all I was getting at.




Can we make a list of where we'll be in 2-3 years if we stay with PPC or port to x86.


PPC pros it seems you are saying:

1. "We will get more features over the next 2 to 3 years. "


My counter to that would be that porting to x86 doesn't mean abandoning "work" on x86. It means porting. They are not mutually exclusive

From the date the original contract was signed to when people started receiving there AmigaOS4 developers pre-release discs was LESS than 2 years. They made the entire OS in less than two years. It's their code, they know how it works. I don't think it will be an unimaginable effort to get it ported in the same time.


As far as other pros, I don't see where you've pointed any others. Maybe PPC hardware won't be 100% stagnant. Maybe the current SAM PPC chip will get a little fast, maybe some other PPC miracle will happen. Lets not even calculate how much faster x86 will grow on the 2 years while porting.




_________________
A3000D (16mhz, 2MB Chip, 4MB Fast, SCSI (300+MB), SuperGen Genlock, Kick 3.1)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back in my day, we didn't have water. We only had Oxygen & Hydrogen, & we'd just shove 'em together

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AmigaHeretic 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 23:15:15
#926 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1697
From: Oregon

@QuikSanz

Quote:


I Myself trust that the direction chosen by the developers, Hyperion and the crew will be right.




I'm a huge supporter of Hyperion. Check out the Amiga Inc vs Hyperion court threads. I stand by then 110%


They are amazingly talented programmers. Have brilliant ideas on coding etc.


But, look where we are after 8 years. We are running on 700mhz hardware we can't even play DVDs on.


No one here knows the future of PPC. Let's abandon ship and go to something with a stable future.

_________________
A3000D (16mhz, 2MB Chip, 4MB Fast, SCSI (300+MB), SuperGen Genlock, Kick 3.1)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Back in my day, we didn't have water. We only had Oxygen & Hydrogen, & we'd just shove 'em together

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QuikSanz 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 2-Aug-2009 23:53:34
#927 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1236
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@AmigaHeretic

With the 680XX we learned to crawl.
With the PPC we have learned to walk.
By the way I don't think my A1XE frameskips, have to look.
Now we will will learn how to really run. I see "SMP" and "Memory protection" in the future.

Lets face it there are only a couple guys working this, it won't be finished, (polished), for several years.

Chris

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Wildstar128 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 3-Aug-2009 0:01:34
#928 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 178
From: Unknown

Lets get this straight - what is the programming language used? C/C++

Um C/C++ is available for both PPC and x86. All it takes is using standard C/C++ commands and libraries on a tool chain that supports both CPUs and all.

If you are using a compiler that can compile x86 and PPC, you should be able to compile to x86 in a matter of minutes.

A team builds a real-time PPC to x86 translator (EMULATOR) to allow existing work to work on the x86 machines. Then new stuff be x86 compiled.

Then you can use a $300 netbook running at 1.66 GHz Intel Atom for example.

Just some points.

But how much investment is manufacturers of PPC CPUs investing to keep up with Intel Desktop computing and keeping the price equal. An 800 MHz computer for $1,000 when you can by a 1.66GHz computer for $300 and have same size if not larger hard drive and fit in the size of a netbook. For $500, we can use -

http://stores.tomshardware.com/search_getprod.php?masterid=729287686&mode=toms_house-m-link-box-1-right


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Hans 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 3-Aug-2009 0:25:25
#929 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote:
@Hans

Quote:


Hyperion does have a roadmap.


Never seen one.


It's an internal roadmap. Unless you work for Hyperion you're not going to see it.

Quote:

... Still can't watch a DVD, ....


I can watch DVDs on my A1 with no frameskipping at all, and have done for years. Do you actually have Amiga OS 4.x? It sounds like you don't.

Quote:

Quote:
Depends on how the development of the various hardware projects progress. If AMCC's (the maker of the 440ep chip) work on the Titan processors comes to fruition, we could be using dual-core 2 GHz machines 2-3 years from now. If not, maybe Freescale's eight-core QorIQ processors might be a good candidate. They lack altivec, but there's plenty of processing power available (assuming that the OS knows how to use it).


That is A LOT of "maybe" statements in there.

Let's base are OS on "maybe" some day there will be new hardware.


Once again, Hyperion and ACube have a much better idea of what's actually coming than you or I do. ACube have an established relationship with AMCC, and I'd be shocked if they stopped evaluating new chips for future products when they released the SAM boards.


Quote:
Quote:
Have a look at the Titan processors that I mentioned above. I can already watch movies on my A1 without frameskipping.


Great. You can watch a DVD on hardware no one can buy! I'm talking right now and 2-3 years from now.


I'll leave it to others to say how well DVD playback works on the various SAM motherboards. IIRC, the Stephen was fairly confident that he could improve the performance of DvPlayer.

Quote:
Quote:
How much will the new hardware cost?


Quote:
Absolutely no idea. Given that you're talking about 2-3 years from now,



Great. Let's base our OS on not only having no idea what hardware if any there will be, lets make sure we have absolutely no idea how much it will cost either.


Your attitude is really starting to annoy me. Do you really expect to be told how much a product that will be available 2-3 years from now will cost? Seriously.

Quote:
Quote:

That would be part of Hyperion's internal roadmap.


Again, something we have never seen.


Well, it is an internal roadmap, so that's not surprising. Did you ever stop to think that it might not be a good idea for them to publish a roadmap? Maybe they don't want competitors to know what's coming. For sure, letting everyone here know is likely to cause a lot of trouble: "why isn't it done yet," "it's vaporware", "stop making promises, show us results," etc.

Quote:
So if we just stay with PPC how is that going to help them financially? How can they sell any more copies of AmigaOS? There can't be many of elite left to spend $1000 for 600mhz hardware/OS.

Quote:

Well, assuming that the hardware that you were asking for above materializes, the hardware will be significantly better. If Hyperion spent the next few years working on improving the OS instead of porting it, the OS' capabilities would be much more than it is now. That would make it more appealing.


We're assuming a lot aren't we? It would have to pretty damn appealing to want to pay $1000 to run on the newest 1ghz chip with no L2!! [/quote]

You're assuming a heck of a lot too. I never said $1000, and I never said anything about a "1GHz chip with no L2." You're also assuming that Hyperion are too stupid to think these things through themselves. Besides, you're asking about 2-3 years from now, so assumptions is about all that you can do.

Quote:

My counter to that would be that porting to x86 doesn't mean abandoning "work" on x86. It means porting. They are not mutually exclusive


This has been discussed over and over before. If the same people who would be improving the OS instead work on porting it, then there will be no other work done. End of story. Moreover, there will be no intermediate releases, because until it is ported properly, it's just a mess and there's nothing to sell. Do you have the money to cover development during that time?

Hyperion said that they have an ambitious project underway. Rather than assuming that they don't know what they're doing, why not give them a chance to show you what they've got?

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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Hans 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 3-Aug-2009 0:32:15
#930 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@Wildstar128

Quote:

Wildstar128 wrote:
Lets get this straight - what is the programming language used? C/C++

Um C/C++ is available for both PPC and x86. All it takes is using standard C/C++ commands and libraries on a tool chain that supports both CPUs and all.


When it comes to OS/driver programming, having a C compiler on two different machines does not make the code portable. It's a big task

Quote:
If you are using a compiler that can compile x86 and PPC, you should be able to compile to x86 in a matter of minutes.


No you can't; not with an OS.

Quote:
A team builds a real-time PPC to x86 translator (EMULATOR) to allow existing work to work on the x86 machines. Then new stuff be x86 compiled.

Writing an emulator is a big and very tedious undertaking. To make matters worse, wherever x86 and PowerPC code interface with each other, endianness conversions must take place. Due to the nature of endianness, this must be performed on a per API call basis. This is a particular pain with all of the library functions since the tag-lists would have to be converted. Given the number of OS libraries, this is a huge undertaking.

If it were a simple case of just recompiling the whole OS and writing a new bootloader then it would have been done by now. If you want more details, then do a search for "x86 port" or variations thereof. This has been discussed to death.

Hans


Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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QuBe 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 3-Aug-2009 2:35:00
#931 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Dec-2006
Posts: 1075
From: Dunes of Uridia

@Hans

Quote:
Well, it is an internal roadmap, so that's not surprising. Did you ever stop to think that it might not be a good idea for them to publish a roadmap? Maybe they don't want competitors to know what's coming


Do "competitors" out there really see Os4.x as a threat; with the small community it has and the very fact this thread has morphed into another "which OS" Os4.x should be developed for or ported to. It does illustrate the overwhelming "divisions" that still exists about which direction to go in... "Divisiveness" could also be interpreted as an opportunity for "healthy" discussion, which I think, over all, is a good thing. The community is active and thinking, and that is what helps, in part, keep the Amiga dream alive...

What ever happens, now or in the "foreseeable" future, Os4.x will threaten no one. I wish it would, then we all know we are on the right tracks... but without a substantial update that includes most of the "base" technologies people expect today... such as Java, Flash and others etc etc... it will no doubt be extremely difficult to turn heads... if ever.

Q!

"i am home"

Last edited by QuBe on 03-Aug-2009 at 03:26 AM.
Last edited by QuBe on 03-Aug-2009 at 02:38 AM.
Last edited by QuBe on 03-Aug-2009 at 02:36 AM.

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Hans 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 3-Aug-2009 2:46:37
#932 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@QuBe

Quote:

QuBe wrote:
@Hans

Quote:
Well, it is an internal roadmap, so that's not surprising. Did you ever stop to think that it might not be a good idea for them to publish a roadmap? Maybe they don't want competitors to know what's coming


Do "competitors" out there really see Os4.x as a threat; with the small community it has and the very fact this thread has morphed into another "which OS" Os4.x should be developed for or ported to.


Both MorphOS and AROS are competing products. Letting them know exactly what's planned for the next 2-3 years would give them ample time to decide how to counter.

Please don't nitpick. The biggest reason for not publishing a public roadmap is because it will be picked to pieces by this community.

Hans

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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QuikSanz 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 3-Aug-2009 3:17:57
#933 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1236
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@Hans

Well said. Lock the thread.

Chris

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Wildstar128 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 3-Aug-2009 3:30:27
#934 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 178
From: Unknown

@Hans

Quote:

Hans wrote:
@Wildstar128

Quote:

Wildstar128 wrote:
Lets get this straight - what is the programming language used? C/C++

Um C/C++ is available for both PPC and x86. All it takes is using standard C/C++ commands and libraries on a tool chain that supports both CPUs and all.


When it comes to OS/driver programming, having a C compiler on two different machines does not make the code portable. It's a big task

Quote:
If you are using a compiler that can compile x86 and PPC, you should be able to compile to x86 in a matter of minutes.


No you can't; not with an OS.

Quote:
A team builds a real-time PPC to x86 translator (EMULATOR) to allow existing work to work on the x86 machines. Then new stuff be x86 compiled.

Writing an emulator is a big and very tedious undertaking. To make matters worse, wherever x86 and PowerPC code interface with each other, endianness conversions must take place. Due to the nature of endianness, this must be performed on a per API call basis. This is a particular pain with all of the library functions since the tag-lists would have to be converted. Given the number of OS libraries, this is a huge undertaking.

If it were a simple case of just recompiling the whole OS and writing a new bootloader then it would have been done by now. If you want more details, then do a search for "x86 port" or variations thereof. This has been discussed to death.

Hans


Hans


I can understand the driver part.

You don't need an OS - BIOS is technically a rudimentary OS just like C64 kernal and we have done that before. You need x86 assembly code and system disk to have something boot from BIOS level.

Remember, you start with the OS & HW API layer. The kernal can be simply recompiled to x86. You compile the stuff that will communicate directly to the hardware. The driver is the hardest part. System level driver that takes the hardware abstraction layer kind of stuff and plug the communication to a real hardware registers mapped into a database (jump table). In C64, there is a jump table which you communicate to that vectors you to the real registers. Which was called the "safe" way to program. Not so important for C64 but in a hardware like modern hw - you have an updated variation on that idea where you look into a database table that redirects you to where the registers are mapped in RAM and passes the data too. Well kinda. A gross explanation but still. You just need to start with one board with a specific chipset then add on more drivers from that point forward. Now, apps communicates to an abstraction layer and never talk directly to hardware. Not with a system which can contain more then one configuration of hardware.

The low level stuff can be a little bit of work but a group of 20-30 programmers should be able to nail that in 9 months for one specific motherboard with everything needed to get things running. Then the next layers up can be worked on with a crew of say 100 coming on board. This is where the drivers team begins the big work. Throwing in cards and writing drivers and getting them to work. If the API mechanism is logically compatible from an application interface to the driver file which is just a sub program which talks to the "Hardware Mapping Database". (whatever it is inside AmigaOS 4.x ).

In 2-3 years - it should be basically done and ready to run on a number of hardware. How hard is it to find say - 200-300 devs to participate? Keep certain things moving and also assisting in the process of porting the OS. How many competent devs do we have in this community?

In 5 years, we can get some more hardware and software. With some generic SVGA drivers, you got a wide array of video cards working if you plan for every basic feature and video modes that almost every video card has in common in a common method of function. Generic nVidia which would work with most nVidia cards. Then progress to optimized card specific drivers. Same can be said for a variety of other hw.

I don't expect 500 Million AmigaOS users in 3-5 years. I can expect to see a larger number when more people can possibly use the OS and not be limited to limited production boards. When there is only 300-500 of these boards or 1000 of that board that doesn't help. You need boards that are produced in the order of 10,000 to 100,000 units a year production to get the price benefits that we are seeing with common x86 boards. That is what allows the cost to go down and complete systems be assemble and packaged at under $500. If I spend $1,000, I can build a computer that has dual core Core i7 CPU at maybe 2.0-2.5 GHz and have a 250 GBytes HD and 1 GB RAM and decent board with 256 to 512 MB VideoRAM video card for say $50. A reasonable but inexpensive $50 Creative Labs Sound Card.

It isn't a $10,000 Gaming PC but it is something. That depends on how much you want to spend.

How many Amiga developers are around?

There is debugging and some of that but then you guys are programmers. If you had a Jack Tramiel kind of guy as a boss tell you - you got 2 years to make an x86 Amiga-OS. What do you need and you do it. Complain, you're fired. Do the job.

I'm not going to dig through a dozen different threads and try to link the information together. There is probably a few dozen threads with 30-60 pages of talk through out many of them. It is easier for you to piece it together because you experienced reading it and already know. It is easier for you to do the job then it is to read all those threads.

Think about it. If you spend time complaining why you can't do it or why it can't be done then you ain't getting it done.

The "you" isn't explicitly referring only to you but to everyone and all devs.

It was a port to move from 68K to PPC. Work hard. Get 'er Done.

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QuBe 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 3-Aug-2009 3:31:53
#935 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Dec-2006
Posts: 1075
From: Dunes of Uridia

@Hans

Quote:
Both MorphOS and AROS are competing products. Letting them know exactly what's planned for the next 2-3 years would give them ample time to decide how to counter.


Yip, you could look at it that way; however are "MorphOS" and "AROS" looked upon seriously outside the AmigaOS/AlternativeOS communities.

Again, is their reach substantial enough and would the "OS heavy weights" care much about them (and/or AmigaOs) in their current forms?

The "OS heavy weights" in this case, being Linux (main/popular linux distros), MacOs, M$ Windoze!

Q!

"i am home"

Last edited by QuBe on 03-Aug-2009 at 03:40 AM.

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Hans 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 3-Aug-2009 3:48:10
#936 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@QuBe

Quote:

QuBe wrote:
@Hans

Quote:
Both MorphOS and AROS are competing products. Letting them know exactly what's planned for the next 2-3 years would give them ample time to decide how to counter.


Yip, you could look at it that way; however are "MorphOS" and "AROS" looked upon seriously outside the AmigaOS/AlternativeOS communities.

Again, is their reach substantial enough and would the "OS heavy weights" care much about them (and/or AmigaOs) in their current forms?


It doesn't matter how serious MorphOS and AROS are looked upon outside of this community, they're still competing products. Moreover, is Amiga OS looked upon any more seriously than any of the derivative OSes?

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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Hans 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 3-Aug-2009 4:06:43
#937 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 5066
From: New Zealand

@Wildstar128

Quote:

Wildstar128 wrote:

[quote]Remember, you start with the OS & HW API layer. The kernal can be simply recompiled to x86.


No, it cannot. Only part of the kernel can be portable over all CPUs. There's always a part that is specific to the particular processor. That's why the kernel has a hardware abstraction layer.

Quote:
The low level stuff can be a little bit of work but a group of 20-30 programmers should be able to nail that in 9 months for one specific motherboard with everything needed to get things running. Then the next layers up can be worked on with a crew of say 100 coming on board. This is where the drivers team begins the big work. Throwing in cards and writing drivers and getting them to work. If the API mechanism is logically compatible from an application interface to the driver file which is just a sub program which talks to the "Hardware Mapping Database". (whatever it is inside AmigaOS 4.x ).


Where are you going to get the money from to pay these programmers?

Quote:
In 2-3 years - it should be basically done and ready to run on a number of hardware. How hard is it to find say - 200-300 devs to participate? Keep certain things moving and also assisting in the process of porting the OS. How many competent devs do we have in this community?


Where are you going to get the money to pay the developers? Bear in mind that you won't have any income from the OS until it's fully ported and ready to go.

Quote:
There is debugging and some of that but then you guys are programmers. If you had a Jack Tramiel kind of guy as a boss tell you - you got 2 years to make an x86 Amiga-OS. What do you need and you do it. Complain, you're fired. Do the job.


If I had Jack Tramiel as my boss, then he had better pay me for the work that I'm doing, and make sure that there are enough people on the team. Otherwise I'd quit.

Quote:
I'm not going to dig through a dozen different threads and try to link the information together. There is probably a few dozen threads with 30-60 pages of talk through out many of them. It is easier for you to piece it together because you experienced reading it and already know. It is easier for you to do the job then it is to read all those threads.


I have no desire to repeat myself yet again, so either dig through the old threads, or believe what you like. I have better things to do with my time than waste my time on this.

Quote:
Think about it. If you spend time complaining why you can't do it or why it can't be done then you ain't getting it done.

The "you" isn't explicitly referring only to you but to everyone and all devs.

It was a port to move from 68K to PPC. Work hard. Get 'er Done.


And now you've just insulted everyone that is developing Amiga OS4. Do you really think that the OS4 devs sit around and moan about how it can't be done? Do you really think that they're lazy? They're all hard at work improving the OS, so give them a break will you.

Hans

Last edited by Hans on 03-Aug-2009 at 04:08 AM.

_________________
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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QuikSanz 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 3-Aug-2009 4:30:30
#938 ]
Super Member
Joined: 28-Mar-2003
Posts: 1236
From: Harbor Gateway, Gardena, Ca.

@Hans,

You have more patience than I do. Via con Dios.

I think all you naysayers need to either accept or "move along".

Chris

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QuBe 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 3-Aug-2009 5:10:23
#939 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Dec-2006
Posts: 1075
From: Dunes of Uridia

@Hans

Quote:
Moreover, is Amiga OS looked upon any more seriously than any of the derivative OSes?


Probably not!

Q!

"i am home"

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Leo 
Re: the secret project of Hyperion
Posted on 3-Aug-2009 7:37:30
#940 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

Quote:

Have a look at the Titan processors that I mentioned above. I can already watch movies on my A1 without frameskipping

On current hardware offering, you can't. Period.

Who will build motherboards with these processors if they ever get released ?

Hyperion is no hardware manufcaturer (unless their secret project has something to do with hardware ;)), ACube targets the embbed market, so I doubt they ever build such board... So: who will make it ?

Last edited by Leo on 03-Aug-2009 at 07:37 AM.

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