@ShInKurO

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ShInKurO wrote: @NutsAboutAmiga Quote: anyway there is documents drawer on the system partition. Please introduce me some of 21th century base user who read manuals...

Are you insinuating thay they cannot read? What are they... retarded?

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a desktop system should be usable even from an user who has nevew used that system before, for this reason there are many UI standard to follow (modern UI standards) which makes an UI intuitive...

Care to list up some of these well established UI standards?
And I do mean standards, as in "works the same on all two platforms"

I'm really curious on what the heck you're talking about.

Last edited by kolla on 15-Jul-2009 at 08:35 PM.

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@Thom_Holwerda

Good and well-balanced review!

@Thom_Holwerda

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Thom_Holwerda wrote: @kolla The whole idea is that the Amiga DOES NOT give in.

That's one of the few good things that can be said about OS4.x

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Did Mac OS X give in to the established way Mac OS works? No. They made a very modern system that functions and works exactly like Mac OS, just with modern technology and improvements across the board.

Pardon me... OSX works "exactly like Mac OS"? That's a new one. And I for one will not agree to OSX being very "modern", it's really not that much of a step up from NeXTStep, and in many ways OSX also strugles with old archaic UNIX legacy - is that really what is considered "modern"?

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There is no reason to assume that something similar couldn't be devised for the Amiga.

Either you're being sarcastic, or you're deluded. There are _heaploads_ of reasons why something similar could never be devised for Amiga. Do I really need to go into why?

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Keep the uniqueness where it makes sense, improve where it makes sense. That's how software works if it wants to remain viable. Build upon your strengths, improve your weaknesses.

I never opposed that. But you seemingly find anything that isnt blatantly obvious a weakness, I dont.

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You apparently want the AmigaOS to stay exactly the way it is - which will inevitably leads to its demise.

Nonsense, again. I never wanted AmigaOS to stay exactly as it is, but I disagree on all the so called "issues" you have, and I in particular oppose the idea of "new users" or "most users" dictating how one can operate a computer - I'm fed up with "most users" being used an excuse for all kinds of silliness on all platforms.

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Way to support your platform.

What do you know about how I support "my platform"? For the record, I have multiple platforms, and I hate to see how they all merge into the same dummified mess to satisfy the assumed needs of "most users" - it's pointless.

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I'm a die-hard BeOS fan, but at least I see that some of the BeOS-isms that I like so much simply aren't viable anymore in today's world.

I see, so you're in the same boat of delusion as many other people here... hoping that one day, some day, there will be lots and lots of BeOS.. oh.. Haiku users... all you have to do is to make Haiku behave just a little bit more like windows in order to pull over users.

Good luck with that (sheesh).

Last edited by kolla on 15-Jul-2009 at 08:37 PM.

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@kolla

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Are you insinuating thay they cannot read? What are they... retarded?

Nobody (no entry level user, few advanced user) read manuals, instead they go away and do better and funny things... you can see this, and it's even written in all UI books... you have only to accept this, and this go on...

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Care to list up some of these well established UI standards?

Buy or better download a UI guide of Apple, GNOME, or other general UI guide to give yourself this know how, it's not my task to give you a book of UI know-how into a forum post...

@Kolla

I give you an example from my daily experience...

Since I have never used OS 4.x, I am not sure if this behaviour is the same there, but on AROS you do cut copy paste only with the ->right Amiga-key (right Windows key on my keyboard) . I have asked people about it, and it seems to be a legacy thing leftover from good old Amiga back in the days.

Back then, having cut/copy/paste was revolutionary, even with only being able to use the right Amiga key, but it's simply faster to do it with one hand instead of two (or cramping one hand to unimaginable postures), that would be like Window Ctrl-x/c/v or Mac OSes left Applekey-x/c/v.


I am coding, so I need these things a lot, and it's frankly going on my nerves to interrupt my train of thought, because i need to concentrate on my right hand and left hand doing something that I can do automatically on other OSes without giving any thought at all.


There are some causes for things like this being standard these days.

Last edited by steril606 on 15-Jul-2009 at 09:16 PM.

@CodeSmith

whther or not you need the Mixer is highly system dependant, so auto installing it is not quite the sensible thing to do.

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@itix

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There is nobody sitting next to him explaining how it works.

Some form of interactive guidance would very useful in this context. Something abit like the shoot this door to open message you get the first time you come across a secret door in quake.

Bit of a challenge to get working though!

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@kolla

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What do you mean "no help system"? They removed it?

Maybe he never pressed the help key? (it is OS4 specific?)

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@steril606

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Back then, having cut/copy/paste was revolutionary, even with only being able to use the right Amiga key, but it's simply faster to do it with one hand instead of two (or cramping one hand to unimaginable postures), that would be like Window Ctrl-x/c/v or Mac OSes left Applekey-x/c/v.

I have to admit I had lot of troubles with old school Macs at the University because I could not figure out how to type '@' and other basic things. Like accessing context menus with one button mouse. It is nice to be different but in the end I preferred using Windows than Mac.

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I am coding, so I need these things a lot, and it's frankly going on my nerves to interrupt my train of thought, because i need to concentrate on my right hand and left hand doing something that I can do automatically on other OSes without giving any thought at all.

It would be enough if left Windows key (along right key) was accepted for copy paste operations. Windows key is closer to X/C/V so it is easier use than CTRL

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

@steril606

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steril606 wrote: @Kolla I give you an example from my daily experience... Since I have never used OS 4.x, I am not sure if this behaviour is the same there, but on AROS you do cut copy paste only with the ->right Amiga-key (right Windows key on my keyboard) . I have asked people about it, and it seems to be a legacy thing leftover from good old Amiga back in the days. Back then, having cut/copy/paste was revolutionary, even with only being able to use the right Amiga key, but it's simply faster to do it with one hand instead of two (or cramping one hand to unimaginable postures), that would be like Window Ctrl-x/c/v or Mac OSes left Applekey-x/c/v. I am coding, so I need these things a lot, and it's frankly going on my nerves to interrupt my train of thought, because i need to concentrate on my right hand and left hand doing something that I can do automatically on other OSes without giving any thought at all. There are some causes for things like this being standard these days.

I've never really given it a thought, but now that you mention it, I only ever use the right Ctrl key for copying and pasting in Windows, just like I use the right shift key for capital X, C and V, and all other letters normally pressed by the fingers of my left hand. I do see your point however, but from the start (and it's not just legacy, I still use it this way today), the left Amiga key has been a special qualifier not usually available to applications, but more used for things like keyboard mouse control, answering the standard requesters with the keyboard, keyboard shortcuts for swapping screens etc. It's a nice way of using all the letters free for any application to use as it wishes for shortcuts.

In contrast, when I move to Windows and Linux (which I use for coding as part of my job), I work much slower in my IDEs due to having to remember if a particular shortcut is Ctrl+letter, or Alt+letter, or Ctrl+Alt+Letter... In the end, I think the AmigaOS system of applying one qualifier for all menu shortcuts makes for easier to remember shortcuts and hence smoother workflow.

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@broadblues

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broadblues wrote: Maybe he never pressed the help key? (it is OS4 specific?)

Well, it wasn't there in 3.9 I don't think, if that's what you mean... New users can be forgiven for not knowing there even is a help button, seeing as it's not marked on any keyboards any more, but they should still be able to see the WBHelp icon which is in the main dock as standard - in 4.1 at least. This has the same effect as pushing the help key. However, it's only an overview of the Workbench and doesn't go into the details of any of the commodities or anything...

By the way, the ClickToFront commodity has a NUMCLICKS tooltype which allows the user to choose how many clicks it takes to bring the window forward. Setting this to 1 will make it behave like Windows etc... I always have it set to 2

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@Thom_Holwerda

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Thom_Holwerda wrote: AmigaOS 4.1 simply does not present itself very well, Google or no. It has really cool features but archaic ways of exposing them to users. Times change, users change, hardware changes. A good piece of software evolves. It adapts to the changing world around it, and makes the best out of what it has at its disposal.

Amiga OS 4.x is being worked on, but there are obviously still plenty of things that need to be done. Workbench, USB 2.0, OpenGL 3, etc., everything takes time, effort and money.

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A bad piece of software remains the same. It does not care about the rest of the world changing, and it does not make anything out of what it has at its disposal. Sadly, AOS4 belongs to the latter category. While that might be fine for you, it won't get the Amiga any new users, and isn't that, in the end, what the platform should strive for? Die-hard long-time Amigans are a dying breed, you know.

Before you make statements like that, perhaps you should install Amiga OS 3.9 on a classic Amiga (or WinUAE) and compare that to Amiga OS 4.1. Amiga OS 4.1 has significantly modernized the OS, and transitioned it to more modern hardware. Sure, there's still a fair way to go, but it's NOT a case of not changing.

Hans

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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

One of the things I always wished for as an Amiga User was for a preference editor that allowed public screens to be defined to be included as standard.

I notice that Windows Vista has finally adopted the mouse pointer that disappears while you are typing. I think that was an innovation that the Amiga first introduced. It certainly wasn't Windows. Or did some other system think of it first.

I also like the Amiga later innovation of having the scroll bar arrow buttons together. Was this an Amiga innovation or some other system first?

My preference is that if you don't like something you should be able to change it to how you like it. But I don't think any system offers that.

@kolla

Having windows auto update is not giving in just because its the way windows does things, its just common sense to have it happen and thats why windows, mac os, beos, linux and ever other modern operating system does it. there is no point having amiga os needing the user to force an update just to keep it the way its always been and different to windows just for the sake of it because its the wrong way for such a thing to work and has always been the wrong way its just that when amiga os was modern there was nothing really to compare it to to say this is wrong back then it was just different but things have moved on, people have used other systems and seen that its a better way of working and there is no reason for amiga os not to work the same way, it doesnt detract for the user experience but improves it by elevating some frustration and confusion even for experienced users.

contextual menus is another feature amiga os never had but due to it being such a great feature to have its becoming standard in OS4.x i understand (never used 4.x though so may be wrong) and 4 colour icons should have been left too becuase using more colours is clearly giving in to windows or something

you cant dismiss a good idea just because its new or has been used somewhere you dont like too much. its still a good idea no matter who used it first.

-Possibly misplaced rant over-

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@Thom_Holwerda

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Thom_Holwerda wrote: @kolla Are you calling me retarded? [I am the author] This has nothing to do with me being stupid, or you being really, really smart. This has to do with legacy. Sure, things like lack of auto-update made sense in the stone age, but we're in 2009 now. You adapt to new technologies. Imagine if nothing ever changed simply because "that's what we're used to". AmigaOS 4.1 simply does not present itself very well, Google or no. It has really cool features but archaic ways of exposing them to users. Times change, users change, hardware changes. A good piece of software evolves. It adapts to the changing world around it, and makes the best out of what it has at its disposal. A bad piece of software remains the same. It does not care about the rest of the world changing, and it does not make anything out of what it has at its disposal. Sadly, AOS4 belongs to the latter category. While that might be fine for you, it won't get the Amiga any new users, and isn't that, in the end, what the platform should strive for? Die-hard long-time Amigans are a dying breed, you know.

Most of your complains are about it being different though or missing features that are actually present. I agree of course with some parts like click to front, lack of memory protection and small software base.

I myself prefer the AmigaOS way of doing things, even though i was more of a pc user first unless you count classic gaming on a ancient a500.
I think your main problem with AmigaOS is that it is very different from windows and that there are some learning curve involved. For a new user like you this is like starting out from scratch and having to re learn things all over which usually takes more than a few days or weeks.
Think back to the first time using a windows or mac os like OS.... I highly doubt you became a experienced user after just a few weeks.
Linux "gnome/kde" and OSX are both very similar to Windows, which means it is easier for windows user to migrate to said OS as he/she does not have to relearn everything.
I think some people would not be happy unless it was more or less identical to Windows....
I dont want my system to automatically remember icon position unless i tell it to.

I dont think the user manual cuts it for new users though. The manual/docs for the classic versions had alot more information on how things work.
You must also remember that OS4.1 is in beta and that 4.1 is infact mainly targeted at classic users which is something that has even been stated by hyperion. I have a feeling that hyperion will set the bar higher with future version.

Edit: I also wondered about the issue you have with mplayer.. I have never heard of anyone who had no sound on playback. Mplayer works just fine on my sam 533 mhz+os4.1 with most formats with exception of framedrops with high res videos due to lack of cpu power.

Last edited by Tomas on 16-Jul-2009 at 02:02 AM.
Last edited by Tomas on 16-Jul-2009 at 01:57 AM.

@ShInKurO Quote:

Have you ever seen what Ambient is able to do? Do you know Ambient is open source and thus everybody can enanche it? I know amigans are refractory and in general to all modern things like opensource, oop, software engineering, collaboration between devs, but all this game of ignore world just become enough boring...

Perhaps you can tell that to the author of MUI v4, since I believe Ambient requires MUI v4...


@Thom_Holwerda Quote:

There is no reason to assume that something similar couldn't be devised for the Amiga. Keep the uniqueness where it makes sense, improve where it makes sense. That's how software works if it wants to remain viable. Build upon your strengths, improve your weaknesses.

If you compare OS3 to OS4, you will see this is exactly what Hyperion have done! And I don't see any reason to think they have stopped with OS4.1 .

Last edited by ChrisH on 16-Jul-2009 at 09:18 AM.

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@Thom_Holwerda

Good Article, Thom. I shares your point.
Very well written.

Best regards
Davide C.

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@Daedalus Quote:

Well, it wasn't there in 3.9 I don't think, if that's what you mean...

Just what ARE you talking about? A500s had a Help key, although it may not have been until the invention of AmigaGuide format in OS2.x that a standard Help system was devised.

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@gonegahgah Quote:

One of the things I always wished for as an Amiga User was for a preference editor that allowed public screens to be defined to be included as standard.

Ummmm, what about Prefs/Screens ??? BTW, that's new to OS4.

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@Thom_Holwerda
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Snapshot didn't work for me, nor should it have to. The idea of a spatial file manager (or any file manager, for that matter) is that it does it by itself. Mannerisms or no, that's just bad design (like the lack of auto-update).

Bad design because it does not follow the Windows way of doing things?? I dont like the OS to remember icon position since it is awfully easy to move them by mistake. Is it really that hard for you to select said icons and click snapshot?? This is more of a personal preference than a flaw...

The reason why you complain seems to only be because you are used to totally different OS.
It just takes time to get used to a new OS.....