Some people seem to think that OS4 is no better than OS3. That it is basically a recompile of OS3 for PPC, with some prettier graphics!

There people have clearly never used OS4 (especially not OS4.1), because OS4 has so many improvements over OS3 that it is difficult to know where to start. I'll try to list a FEW of the more obvious improvements, but you have to bear in mind that these are heavily biased to what I personally like/dislike about the Amiga, and that there are many more improvements that I have not listed:

* Multiview & many other text viewing apps now support marking & copying of text. This is unbelievably useful.

* Drag & drop from Workbench to other screens! Given how important screens are for Amiga, this is incredibly useful.

* Draggable RTG screens! Really, I missed this for so long on Amithlon & WinUAE.

* Comes with AmiPDF, which provides far far far better PDF viewing than the crappy 3rd-party support available for OS3.

* DvPlayer (demo), for good to great video playback (and rather basic DVD playback).

* No need for many 3rd-party apps to do OS-like things. e.g. A standard Screen Blanker system. A standard TCP/IP system, which also works a hell of a lot better than OS3's. A standard USB system (maybe not the best, but at least it is built-in, and even better is supported by Kickstart itself in the pre-boot menu). AmiDock provides a standard launcher bar. PartitionWizard (goodbye DiskSalv & ReOrg, neither of which supports SFS anyway). AHI as standard. MUI as standard. 3D support as standard (even if performance isn't great for games). 24-bit datatypes as standard.

* Many 3rd-party patches are no-longer needed (and work more reliably than patches can). e.g. Configurable & asynchronous menus (goodbye MagicMenu). DefIcons as standard. Incredibly configurable windows (goodbye Birdie/etc). Disk full guage in Workbench window. High-colour icon support (goodbye NewIcons). Configurable Workbench title bar. 64-bit disk support as standard.

* Workbench has been significantly improved in many small ways (although it of course could do with more improvements). e.g. Highlight icons across multiple windows in one go. Searching files/folders is built-in. Visual indication that drag & drop won't work. Proper ghosted icons (not faked). ContextMenus commodity provides Windows-like pop-up menus. AsyncWB makes copying/etc not freeze Workbench. RAWBInfo gives MUCH better icon & disk information. A fairly modern icon set, not some 4-colour monstrosity. (And the 3rd-party Filer fills the DOpus5 gap quite nicely, if Workbench doesn't meet you needs.)

* Comes with documentation for most of OS4's components.

* EDIT: OS support for configuring public screens - very handy!

* Support for real transparency.

* Virtual (paged) memory support, so running out of memory should be a thing of the past.

* NotePad, an actually half-decent text editor! First time in AmigaOS history I think

* A lot ton of bugs fixed.


And probably a ton more stuff that I have forgotten or not noticed

Last edited by ChrisH on 08-Oct-2009 at 10:17 AM.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.

I love using Amiga OS4.1 on my Sam440

@ChrisH

Don't forget that the OS3 API was fundamentally unexpandable, it had reached its limits.
The new OS4 API not only expands upon the old, it now allows for unlimited expansion in the future.

_________________
cheers
tony

@ChrisH

Filesystem:

* 64Bit file system support for large files.

* 64Bit devices support for large Partitions,
(existed in OS3.5/OS3.9 as patch, but was not part of kickstart, so boot partition needed to less the 2Gb)

* Display file systems beyond 2G correctly.

Workbench

* Many hidden new ways to resize and move windows, by using shift/alt and ctrl keys.

* AmigaOS4 Icons 256 colors whit individual palette (Does not use screen palette when rendered on 16bit or 32bit screens), and alpha channel, looks like PNG icons but takes less space on the disk.

* From wb icons: Programs can be selected to run as shell or workbench programs.

* Support for many languages that OS3.x did not support, thanks to UTF8 support in reaction, and many parts of OS4 gui system.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 08-Oct-2009 at 07:56 AM.

_________________
AmigaOS4.1 update 2
AmigaOne-XE (Fixed)
MPC7557 1Ghz
512MB
Radeon 9250 AGP

@ChrisH

I suspect what youre hearing is people saying that os4.x doesnt offer a lot that os3.x, when tweaked, offers, which is true. Os4.x however does offer a lot of stuff os3.x doesnt "out of the box". In terms of actual functionailty that is possible (as opposed to default settings/setup )theyre not a world apart and both offer few things the other cant provide. Of course os3.x generally needs amithon/uae to provide decent hardware grunt, but the comparison here is with the oses themselves. There is very little that OS4 offers that's not avalailable to os3.x.

@Thread
The vast majority of OS3 (ex)users will never get to use OS4.x, so I guess what they don't know they won't miss! Explain to me why it matters? The hardware is prohibitively expensive and the applications on OS4.x are in too short supply to make a £700+ bundle a good purchase. Whether OS4.x offers better features isn't really the weakest point in the Amiga machine right now. Does it support Java & Flash/is there widespread printer support?/can you open & save M$ application files/does it include a CSS capable browser out of the box? These are the questions people are asking!

@ChrisH

Noone who has actually used OS4 and has a brain inside the head will claim that OS4 is no better than OS3. Even when compared to a tweaked OS3 setup, the current OS4 version is a massive improvement in terms of features and stability.

_________________
Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!
SAM440ep @ 667MHz / 512MB RAM / AmigaOS 4.1

@BigD
PLEASE will you stop spamming threads (at least my ones) with IRRELEVANT and OFF-TOPIC moans about the Sam's slightly high cost. Thank you.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.

I love using Amiga OS4.1 on my Sam440

@fishy_fis

Quote:

I suspect what youre hearing is people saying that os4.x doesnt offer a lot that os3.x, when tweaked

Can you give example on things AmigaOS3.x whit patches does that AmigaOS4.1 does not?

You must understand there lots of changes in SDK (Software Development Kit), there not just a question of dropping in patch to get application to support 64bit file system for example, the applications will need to know that API exist and can be used, other vise it might open a 4-6 Giga byte file and not be able to read the file from start to end, or end up writing to the wrong place in the file.

AmigaOS4 also support a way to notify an application about changes that where done to a file, so the application may reload the file.

There is yet something else we have failed to say anything about, the new TCP/IP stack, Miami often did not work where well whit DHCP and cable modems, but Roadshow does that whit out any problems.

_________________
AmigaOS4.1 update 2
AmigaOne-XE (Fixed)
MPC7557 1Ghz
512MB
Radeon 9250 AGP

@fishy_fis Quote:

There is very little that OS4 offers that's not avalailable to os3.x.

Did you not read my list? There is a ton of things OS4 offers that OS3 cannot, even when tweaked.

Having actually used OS4.1, I find it *miles* ahead of even a tweaked OS3 system. The difference is just so large that it's ridiculous you even raise this argument. I say this as a previously committed Amithlon/WinUAE user.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.

I love using Amiga OS4.1 on my Sam440

@ChrisH
Quote:

Draggable RTG screens! Really, I missed this for so long on Amithlon & WinUAE.

Maybe i used RTG systems for too long on classic, but i never missed screendrag. I admit it's a nice addition, but OS4 version has its limitations (like it can't display screens "behind" if they're different color depth than the "front" screen, but fix me on this, if i'm wrong).

Quote:

standard USB system (maybe not the best, but at least it is built-in, and even better is supported by Kickstart itself in the pre-boot menu).

Actually, you can boot from USB devices also on classic, in case you've got an USB card, which supports autoboot (Algor, and Deneb does, IIRC). Then these devices also displayed in the Early Startup Menu, as far as i know. (Like they would display with any SCSI/ATA card with a boot ROM.)

Quote:

Highlight icons across multiple windows in one go.

I don't know what you mean with this... Selecting icons in multiple windows in one go? Then i'm fairly sure it's possible with 3.x as well. At least my OS3.1 installation can do this...

Quote:

Many 3rd-party patches are no-longer needed (and work more reliably than patches can)

What's wrong with patches? I mean, some people clearly seem to dislike patches. Well yes, badly written patches can break your system, or make it unreliable, but it's not because they're patches, but because they're badly written... I've a heavily patched 3.1 system on my A2000, and it reaches weeks of uptime single handedly on heavy desktop load (plus webserver and tons of other crap running in the background). I don't see how anything running any version of AmigaOS can be more reliable than this.

Quote:

Virtual (paged) memory support, so running out of memory should be a thing of the past.

Yeah, instead of running out of mem and scream out loud, now apps tend to just crash silently, and cause heavy disk I/O first. A lot better indeed... (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

_________________
PegasosII/G4 : Efika : A2000/060/PIV : A1200/060
Free Pascal Compiler MOS & OS4 Port
hosting Pegasos.hu and AmigaSpirit.hu

@ChrisH

Yes, I did read your list and there's not really much there that cant also be done with OS3.x.

@Nutsaboutamiga

I didnt say OS3.x was better than OS4.x.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 08-Oct-2009 at 09:41 AM.

@Chain-Q

Quote:

Actually, you can boot from USB devices also on classic, in case you've got an USB card, which supports autoboot (Algor, and Deneb does, IIRC). Then these devices also displayed in the Early Startup Menu, as far as i know. (Like they would display with any SCSI/ATA card with a boot ROM.)

The note was most likely referring to the fact that you can use USB mice and keyboards to control the early startup. It had nothing todo with booting from USB devices.

Quote:

What's wrong with patches?

I can tell you whats wrong with patches: As an application developer, it is a nightmare to support patched systems as you have no idea what 3rd party behavior the user has added to this system. Stuff like FastLayers/QuickLayers/MyLayers(?) tend to have side effects on some applications and not on others. I spent weeks during the IBrowse development to track down issues like this. And when you tell a user that you have identified a problem in their patches, they typically respond: "No other app has problems, so you have to fix your app." Little do they know that no other app happen to exercise the system to the extent that your app does.
This is huge reason why a stable OS with a stable feature set is much desirable.

regards,
Stefan

@ChrisH
Quote:

Having actually used OS4.1, I find it *miles* ahead of even a tweaked OS3 system. The difference is just so large that it's ridiculous you even raise this argument. I say this as a previously committed Amithlon/WinUAE user.

I don't see the difference that big. OS4 can do what's possible on it's target hardware (few hundred Mhz PowerPC), while 68k AmigaOS can do what's possible on it's target hardware (below or equal to 50Mhz 68k). And actually, with UAE/Amithlon you miss quite a few possibilities, which are reality for me on my classic. Example, my PicassoIV has excellent overlay support, and also a TV-tuner add-on, which still has no match in Amiga world. And compared to that, (for example) advancements in video playback doesn't seem all that great in OS4. (Hell, more than a *DECADE* passed, since the PIV could do all that.)

Don't get me wrong. There are clearly advancements, even big ones (like 64bit files support all around) and OS4 can do more than OS3. But in my view, it's partially because it got lightyears faster hardware, and/or it's not tied into some half-legged emulation, and a few Mhz 68k CPU, with a few MB RAM videocard or ECS/AGA, which limits the possibilities, when you want do to stuff like RTG screendrag (for example). But even RTG screendrag was made for classic, among others. (#amigazeux's Dragon works on 68k as well, and CGFX can also do screendrag on some videocards, IIRC).

_________________
PegasosII/G4 : Efika : A2000/060/PIV : A1200/060
Free Pascal Compiler MOS & OS4 Port
hosting Pegasos.hu and AmigaSpirit.hu

@ChrisH

Quote:

PLEASE will you stop spamming threads (at least my ones) with IRRELEVANT and OFF-TOPIC moans about the Sam's slightly high cost. Thank you.

I appreciate your politeness but if no one gets to SEE the improvements on OS4.x then the improvements are irrelevant. It may show Hyperion are headed in the right direction, but in terms of getting Amigas into peoples homes it does not help that the API is tweaked and there's now transparencies etc! We need apps not OS improvements I feel. I think Hyperion should switch back to porting PC/Mac games to the Amiga now . AOS4.1 is good enough for the time being and we need some games to take advantage of the system! They're good at porting and in a year where the world gets Snow Leopard and Windows 7 the Amiga focus should be else where (apps/Flash/Java) while those 2 OSs take the limelight. Amiga OS will get more attention from porting Unreal Tournament or Starcraft 1 than it will from more OS tweaks.

Last edited by BigD on 08-Oct-2009 at 10:02 AM.

@Chain-Q Quote:

OS4 version has its limitations (like it can't display screens "behind" if they're different color depth than the "front" screen, but fix me on this

INCORRECT: OS4.1 (and maybe earlier) handles different colour depths just fine. And I really have *no* idea what you mean by "limitations" - it works BETTER than on AGA with OS3, due to things dragging across screens, support for configuring public screens, etc.

Quote:

I don't know what you mean with this... Selecting icons in multiple windows in one go?

I was a little fuzzy on this one - I could not remember if you could shift-click across multiple windows. BUT with OS4 you can draw a selection box, and it highlights icons in all visible windows, which OS3 definitely did not support.

Quote:

What's wrong with patches? I mean, some people clearly seem to dislike patches. Well yes, badly written patches can break your system, or make it unreliable, but it's not because they're patches, but because they're badly written... I've a heavily patched 3.1 system on my A2000,

I'm sure that if you carefully choose your patches, they they will tend to work. But the truth is that most patches ARE badly written, those that do work tend to conflict with those written by other people, and even in the best case I found that "good" patches can cause instability in certain situations. That's why MCP existed (good patches all designed to work together without problems), but even many of it's patches had bugs & design flaws.

In the end, on Amithlon/WinUAE (with OS3.9.2), I had very few patches running, because they simply conflicted with too many things, and caused subtle instabilites.

Quote:

Yeah, instead of running out of mem and scream out loud, now apps tend to just crash silently, and cause heavy disk I/O first. A lot better indeed... (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

As far as I understand it, page memory works great on AmigaOne & Pegasos - it is only on beta version of OS4 for Sam440 that it currently has problems.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.

I love using Amiga OS4.1 on my Sam440

@Yabba
Quote:

The note was most likely referring to the fact that you can use USB mice and keyboards to control the early startup. It had nothing todo with booting from USB devices.

... and you can do the same with Algor/Deneb, obviously, as it also have bootmouse/bootkeyboard support (again fix me on this, as if i don't have real life experience with it, just read the feature set )

Quote:

As an application developer, it is a nightmare to support patched systems as you have no idea what 3rd party behavior the user has added to this system.

Read the part i wrote about patches vs. badly written patches. I was thinking about the exact same situation. But i know what you're talking about. I wrote code myself, which doesn't work on my AGA machine, because it has FScreen patch running, which kills some doublebuffering tricks i've used. (BTW, IBrowse works faaast with it... )

Quote:

This is huge reason why a stable OS with a stable feature set is much desirable.

I haven't questioned that, i think, but then again, it doesn't make patching evil, in itself.

_________________
PegasosII/G4 : Efika : A2000/060/PIV : A1200/060
Free Pascal Compiler MOS & OS4 Port
hosting Pegasos.hu and AmigaSpirit.hu

@Chain-Q

Quote:

Maybe i used RTG systems for too long on classic, but i never missed screendrag. I admit it's a nice addition,

That was one of the things I did really miss when using an RTG A1200, so I was really glad when OS4 got this feature back. Not everyone will use it but I did (and now do again) find it very useful.

Quote:

but OS4 version has its limitations (like it can't display screens "behind" if they're different color depth than the "front" screen, but fix me on this, if i'm wrong).

Early versions of the dragging did not let you view different depth screens and in OS4.0 that is correct. I think it was in OS4.1 (or it /may/ have been an earlier update to OS4.0 as I cannot remember) the ability to drag screens and view ones of different depth was added. So you are correct for earlier versions of OS4 but the later version has resolved that limitation.

Having said that I do always tend to set up screens to be the same depth because of that initial limitation but don't really have to do this anymore - apart from the usual monitor blanking out during the depth changes.

@ChrisH
Quote:

OS4.1 (and maybe earlier) handles different colour depths just fine.

I stand corrected then, i've tried with 4.0 final, and it didn't work.

Quote:

BUT with OS4 you can draw a selection box, and it highlights icons in all visible windows, which OS3 definitely did not support.

I have just tried. It works. (OS 3.1) Maybe some patch makes it work for me tho... But it works.

Quote:

As far as I understand it, page memory works great on AmigaOne & Pegasos - it is only on beta version of OS4 for Sam440 that it currently has problems.

Well, i've my information from a 4.1 user, who has both A1 and Peg2. But no SAM. He has constant crashing problems with large apps, when swap kicks in. On both machines.

_________________
PegasosII/G4 : Efika : A2000/060/PIV : A1200/060
Free Pascal Compiler MOS & OS4 Port
hosting Pegasos.hu and AmigaSpirit.hu

@fishy_fis Quote:

Yes, I did read your list and there's not really much there that cant also be done with OS3.x.

Then I'm sorry, but you must be blind. The only things which are arguably available for OS3 are:
Quote:

* DvPlayer (demo), for good to great video playback (and rather basic DVD playback). * No need for many 3rd-party apps to do OS-like things. e.g. A standard Screen Blanker system. A standard TCP/IP system, which also works a hell of a lot better than OS3's. A standard USB system (maybe not the best, but at least it is built-in, and even better is supported by Kickstart itself in the pre-boot menu). AmiDock provides a standard launcher bar. PartitionWizard (goodbye DiskSalv & ReOrg, neither of which supports SFS anyway). AHI as standard. MUI as standard. 3D support as standard (even if performance isn't great for games). 24-bit datatypes as standard. * Many 3rd-party patches are no-longer needed (and work more reliably than patches can). e.g. Configurable & asynchronous menus (goodbye MagicMenu). DefIcons as standard. Incredibly configurable windows (goodbye Birdie/etc). Disk full guage in Workbench window. High-colour icon support (goodbye NewIcons). Configurable Workbench title bar. 64-bit disk support as standard.

HOWEVER:

For DvPlayer alternative, OS3 has FroggerNG, but let's be honest here - OS3 does not have the grunt for playing videos, and video performance is pretty dire on Amithlon & even WinUAE (presumably too much emulation overhead for some reason).

My point about "No need for many 3rd-party apps to do OS-like thing" is that they come as standard, so (a) guaranteed to work well with everything else, and (b) if someone writes an improvement, it will be usable by everyone - not just those who chose one particular 3rd-party app over five others.

My point about "Many 3rd-party patches are no-longer needed" is that you don't have to spend years tweaking your system, and then finding it is still unstable with certain apps or other patches.

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.

I love using Amiga OS4.1 on my Sam440

@ChrisH

Quote:

e.g. Highlight icons across multiple windows in one go.

Nice. I never realised you could do that until now.

Of course AFAIK OS3 may have been able to do it too, I can't check as I no longer have a classic.