@Hammer

I think the comparison would be more eye-opening if they were compared on comparable hardware without regard to either OS's hardware speed requirements.

_________________
Life without the LORD is like a soap bubble without the soap. Without Him, you are nothing.

@Hammer
Quote:

I call them mysterious features because no-one is able to single them out." Should one start make a list in comparing MacOS X or Windows XP against AmigaOS 4.0?

Yes I would be very pleased for you to list them. My rider of course is that they need to have some consequence for ordinary users and not be a list of technically arcane features -- if you could do so I would be well pleased.

Hammer I would like you to show how Windows (3.1-XP) could ever be as responsive as AmigaOS GUI, regardless of how finely tuned it is. The reason I can assert this is that the Windows message and semaphore system is littered with waits, the GUI resposnse can never be tuned into the speed of CPU as you suggest because waiting is what Windows does best.

MacOSX may be as responsive on a G5, I don't know -- but it is not there for the G4, far far better than windows, but not as responsive as OS4. As for Linux, I have simply never seen an implemtation that does not feel like a delayed response -- there may be one but I would place these two way above your favourite Windows and much closer to AmigaOS in terms of repsonsiveness.

_________________
Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

@Billsey

Quote:

I think the comparison would be more eye-opening if they were compared on comparable hardware without regard to either OS's hardware speed requirements.

Of course it would... I wouldn't deny that particular AmigaOS strengths. Also, one has considered the number service that Windows supports?

With PC world's way of thinking (especially from mindshare crowd)i.e. the latest brute force hardware is the solution for anything that slows them down.

A cut down Windows XP Home/Pro is available via MS Windows XP Pre-Install Edition (available only with OEMs) i.e. ~80MB Windows XP HD installation is possible with this edition (able to cut out non-essential items). Unlike other Windows NT4/2K/XP/2K3 boot CDs, this edition's boot CD runs up to Win2K GUI via CD (think of Amithlon CD, but with Windows (just missing Explorer.exe shell)) . It?s was still able to have picture backdrop, NT command line shell and able to run basic Win32 applications (notepad, regedit and ?etc?). ?MS Windows XP Pre-Install Edition? is similar to WinXP Embedded Edition in relation to having the ability to cut out the non-essential items. This is to illustrate some differences with MS Windows XP Editions.

_________________
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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@GregS

Quote:

Yes I would be very pleased for you to list them. My rider of course is that they need to have some consequence for ordinary users and not be a list of technically arcane features

Define "ordinary users" ...

Are you implying AmigaOS 4.0 will have comparable range driver support and feature sets as with Windows XP (**main file objects that bloats the Windows installations)?

Basic WinXP (a.k.a Windows 2002) features(recalling) ...
1. Basic TCP/IP home/share networking with basic Firewall. Includes related wizards, Internet connection sharing and network bridging feature (due to modern dual LAN equipped motherboards).
2. Basic file security. Also protected storaged via private keys.
3. Basic defrag utility.
4. DirectX 8/9.0 APIs for driving the latest graphic cards and games. Major effects IF this API class is missing i.e. can't play X-BOX class games. This includes DirectX8 sound API e.g.basic EAX1.0 support and DirectX sfx plug-ins infrastructure.
5. Different User profiles.
6. Basic Terminal Server Servcies (VNC is just to slow). Some limitation lifted on SP2 (user demanded).
7. Full featured USB 2.0 stack and drivers.
8. Full featured Firewire stack.
9. Common flatbed scanner APIs (twain32).
10. OLE services for application integration between application vendors. (This is not Datatype style concepts).
11. Integrated OBDC Servcies. Developers has less worry about infrastructure deployment (for business oriented end user applications).
12. HDCD support (20bit sound quality on normal CD media).
13. Audio OS infrastructure to support 4.1, 5.1, 7.1 24bit sound cards.
14. GS Softsyn (For basic onboard Audio solution).
15. Full featured Internet browser, Email Client and Instant Messenger.
16. Transparent Win16 legacy. One of the reasons why Windows won the battle against the early OS/2 Warp (i.e. issues with Win16 compatibility).
17. ASP scripting support i.e.web based infrastructure.
18. Basic Network File and print share.
19. SMP** and Hyper-trading support for future dual core X86 processors.
20. Logging and roll back services.
21. Basic Fax services.
22. IIS servcies e.g. basic deployement web based infrastructure.
23. Transparent CD-ROM buring and DVD support.
24. MS Shadow Copy (backup purposes).
25. Script blocking services (turned off by default).
26. Smart card services (legacy)
27. Hibernation services.
28. UPS control services.
29. P-ATA Ultra DMA up to Mode 5.
30. The crashed shared memory Win16 applications doesn?t completely crash the OS features.
31. Basic Windows Movie Maker.
32. Basic preview thumbnail pictures.
Should one include MS Windows XP "Media Centre Edition" (a.k.a Windows 2003**) and compare it with AmigaOS 4.0?
33. Video Capturing infrastructure for WDM, USB and Firewire sources.
34. Basic partition software.

**For NVIDIA's incoming(Q1 2004) nForce3 250 class motherboard (illustrated as an example).

Note that, there?s some consequence for ?ordinary users? if the OS infrastructure is not 'mature' i.e. ease factor for the application programmers to create end user applications.

Quote:

Hammer I would like you to show how Windows (3.1-XP) could ever be as responsive as AmigaOS GUI, regardless of how finely tuned it is. The reason I can assert this is that the Windows message and semaphore system is littered with waits, the GUI resposnse can never be tuned into the speed of CPU as you suggest because waiting is what Windows does best.

Define user responses time. I defined it as "click on icon(object) and windows appears" time interval. On near high spec'ed machines, the response time is near instantaneous i.e. "click, bang" effect (e.g. where?s the line draw?) .

PS; The bloated MS Word 2002 (Office XP) loads about 1.5 seconds in my machine.

Quote:

I would place these two way above your favourite Windows

The "your favourite Windows" would be irrelevant to this case i.e. getting personal is outside this topic's context.

PS; I do have a spare (due to continual PC upgrades) 256MB PC133 modules/keyboard/mouse/SVGA monitor/AGP card/Emu10k card/ATX case/250W power brick. All I need is AmigaOS 4.0 (RTM status**) and A1 mobo. **I have no need for yet another Linux box?

_________________
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@Atheist
?Quote:

2) xp doesn't support multiple CPUs. So we're okay there.

Note that Windows XP Pro supports SMP and Hyper-treading (poorman?s SMP).
Only Windows XP Home doesn?t support SMP (but it can be reg hacked to support SMP).

Quote:

1) multi-user OS, with sign-on/off

One could try near Win95 'family login' level with user profiles.

_________________
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@Hammer

Quote:

Define "ordinary users" ...

Non-business user, home user, independant user etc.

Quote:

Define user responses time. I defined it as "click on icon(object) and windows appears" time interval. On near high spec'ed machines, the response time is near instantaneous i.e. "click, bang" effect (e.g. where?s the line draw?) .

Response time, is the elapsed time between the act of clicking and dragging and the visual "draws" on-screen, (not necessaily the full loading of a program or file). Best tested by launching several applications in a sequence, without the launch of one incapacitating the controls on another.

This has little to do with how fast the hardware is. It is not the time elapsed in laoding, but the visual responsiveness of the GUI and relies on sensative multitasking switching, clean, no-wait semaphores and elegant "under-the-hood" design -- none of which Window's posseses.

Now as to your list, 19 seems to be the current status on both windows and OS4 -- SMP is in the pipeline.

1-3 are all in OS4 and much better implemented. 4 (directX) is niether here nor there.

User Profiles (5), is absent and needs to be addressed, albeit in a much better fashion than Windows has done -- there are threads on this topic on this site and repsonses from Hyperion and Amiga Inc buried somewhere -- it is on the list.

7&8 are implemented or partially implemented already. Twain32 and flatbed scanners (9) may have been addressed somehow, but it is not a biggy (merely being an API), all should be resolved by OS4.1-2.

OLE (10) may not be relevantbut I stand to be corrected and OBDC (11) is being addressed I believe via a different route.

!2-14 are either implented or in the process of being implemented as complete audio solutions.

15 has been addressed, though a full XML browser is not yet available, the XML and CSS parsers are part of the OS.

16, well Amiga legacy seems to be a major problem already fixed through JIT, but I can't see the actual relevance of this point in the list.

17 I don't know enough to comment on.

19 I believe is well taken care of, but I stand to be corrected on this.

20 Logging and rollback I don't know exactly what you mean.

21 Fax was available I don't know its current status.

22. I cannot see how IIS fits into this context.

23 Done.

24 Backup on the Amiga has always been easier than on MS.

25 A windows problem surely?

26 Who cares?

27 Already Exist if I understand it correctly.

28 UPS -- again my ignorance.

29 I think this is being worked on for the next release, but am unsure.

30 Inapplicable

31 Yes we need a good movie maker, but something far better than the windows one, but
then again the legacy-ware for the Amiga would bet better.

32. Available as a third party add-on.


Hammer -- where is the vital missing elements that so cripples OS4? I mean there are some things which need to be improved, but where is the crippling deficit -- I just cannot see it from your list -- there is a couple and I stress a couple of things which would be of benefit, there are quite a few things in your list that I would consider arcane by any measure -- just where is the vital deficit?

_________________
Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

@GregS

Quote:

Non-business user, home user, independant user etc.

Note that Microsoft initially targeted the business users first. This pattern was set from the original IBM PC release, then it was repeated on Windows 3.11 Workgroups and then on Windows NT. By historical data, this formula has been successful.

Quote:

Response time, is the elapsed time between the act of clicking and dragging and the visual "draws" on-screen, (not necessaily the full loading of a program or file). Best tested by launching several applications in a sequence, without the launch of one incapacitating the controls on another. This has little to do with how fast the hardware is. It is not the time elapsed in laoding, but the visual responsiveness of the GUI and relies on sensative multitasking switching, clean, no-wait semaphores and elegant "under-the-hood" design -- none of which Window's posseses.

Did you forget Intel's hyper-treading for multitasking issues? Could you cite some real world applications to setup that particular test?

From desktop icons, MS Word 2002, ULead Video Studio 7, Mozilla 1.5, Visual Studio .Net 2002, Borland Delphi 7 didn't pose a problem i.e. loaded multiple applications and start using MS Word 2002.

Note that nForce2?s SPP Northbridge enables multiple DMA engines to be executed at same time.

Quote:

SMP is in the pipeline.

Windows Anvil already past SMP i.e. NUMA support (nForce3 250 (4+4) is one such motherboard).

Quote:

OLE (10) may not be relevant but I stand to be corrected

I?m surprise that you don?t know that this is a major office related function.

Quote:

32. Available as a third party add-on.

Careful with that statement since you have change the point reference i.e. let's see AmigaOS 4.0 has something that approiaches nVIDIA's Soundstorm or CL's Audigy2 software suite.

Quote:

28 UPS -- again my ignorance.

Uninterruptible Power Supply (UPS).

Quote:

1-3 are all in OS4 and much better implemented.

Note that with SP2, the network sections will be memory protected.

Quote:

4 (directX) is niether here nor there.

I was referring equivalent support. Note that X-BOX games are DirectX8 class games.

Quote:

!2-14 are either implented or in the process of being implemented as complete audio solutions.

Would it be in AmigaOS 4.0?

Quote:

15 has been addressed, though a full XML browser is not yet available, the XML and CSS parsers are part of the OS.

Would it have an Internet Browser i.e. would AmigaOS 4.0 need Mozilla?

Quote:

20 Logging and rollback I don't know exactly what you mean.

System Restore point. One can try beta drivers and yet having the ability to roll back IF the beta drivers didn't work out.

Quote:

27 Already Exist if I understand it correctly.

Does AmigaOS 4.0 dumps it's memory contents to the hard disk and load it back up on the next system startup.

Quote:

21 Fax was available I don't know its current status.

sigh...

Quote:

25 A windows problem surely?

Part of Internet Browser issues...

Quote:

31 Yes we need a good movie maker, but something far better than the windows one, but then again the legacy-ware for the Amiga would bet better.

Are you changing the point of reference again?

_________________
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Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@GregS


Quote:

Hammer -- where is the vital missing elements that so cripples OS4? I mean there are some things which need to be improved, but where is the crippling deficit -- I just cannot see it from your list -- there is a couple and I stress a couple of things which would be of benefit, there are quite a few things in your list that I would consider arcane by any measure -- just where is the vital deficit?

GregS the vital deficit (IMO) is this -- recently, my little
sister bought a Mac...set it up herself, and within a few
minutes was checking her hotmail, playing cheezy online flash
games, chatting it up with her friends via YIM, making custom
CD"s with ITunes, and...just for the hell of it, I fired up Q3
and ET to kind of subjectively "gauge" the speed of the system.
Everything nicely integrated and working first try, right from
the box...but your saying that some type of esoteric 'feel' or
"responsiveness" somehow makes AOS an equally viable platform,
even outside of enthusiast circles??

Yes, *some* of these things can be done on AOS with enough
time and effort, but even simple things like checking Hotmail
are pretty much broken to some extent or another...that's kind
of a necessity for the consumer market...honestly, I spend lots
of fun hours toying with 'niche' OS's like AOS(3.x)/MorphOS/Linux,
but I sure as hell wouldn't recommend them to my parents. :/

@-D-

Most of times you can do the same things on Amiga searching 3rd party apps but I'd like to see integration and install a cd and have everything installed without searching 3rd party apps. Sometimes people don't have time to search third party apps or they simply don't know where to find them.

Including these 3rd party apps as contributions would be nice. And an unified installer for 3rd party apps so you can install them fast without copying files to different places...

_________________
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@-D-

Quote:

Yes, *some* of these things can be done on AOS with enough time and effort, but even simple things like checking Hotmail are pretty much broken to some extent or another...that's kind of a necessity for the consumer market...honestly, I spend lots of fun hours toying with 'niche' OS's like AOS(3.x)/MorphOS/Linux, but I sure as hell wouldn't recommend them to my parents. :

Yes this is fair enough and I agree that there needs to be lot improved
to become a viable mass market OS. However, the foundations are good
because responsiveness is subjective, is feel, and is important.

I can't recomend the Amiga to novices, at the moment, unless they
have a real interest in computers as such. But look how superficial the
needed things are, and how easily they can be configured in some
future release.

I believe we can easily go somewhere much further than your example
of MacOS in terms of preconfigured ease of use. The scripting ports
which are near universal on the Amiga are vital, in combining and recombining
applications for these sorts of mini-environments can go well beyond wizards.

My general problem is the suggestion that the mass market is forever
beyond our grasp, that the Amiga is doomed to occupy an niche. No one
pretends that OS4 is any more than a new foundation by OS4.2 it should
be a respectable little beast, by OS5 we should have something well beyond
that.

And the critical thing is not Amiga, but the other OSes which need to re-invent
themselves to go much further than they are today. Amiga needs to develop,
but it already has elegance, it is not technical excellence that matters for
future development but good foundations -- we are not at the end of the
computer revolution, but at the begining of it.

Between now and OS5 there may be some other OS developed, which even
better fits the bill. That is possible. What is not possible is for MS, Linux or
even Mac to begin again, develop an elegant foundation for the future.

Biological evolution is instructive for times on the verge of change. The species
which die-off are those doing best in the present environment, when that
environment changes, it is the niche species, usually not as well developed
as the dominant ones, that come to the fore.

The environment has changed, people are pissed-off with how they are forced
to use computers, they are more educated about them, they place different
demands upon them. Amiga only has to do things half-right to gain a significant
amount of acceptence -- nothing is static.

_________________
Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

@Hammer

We disagree Hammer I think will always will disagree. We don't inhabit the same world or even see the same things.

For example I referred to movie maker because even old Amiga editing software was better than it, changing what point of reference?

I still do not believe that OS4 lacks some vital igrediant which means it cannot compete with MS. I agree Amiga needs further development (which is the point of the OS4 release) but aping Windows is a really bad idea.

I would not be here if I thought Windows was any good or had a future, may I ask why you are here, seriously -- I mean if Amiga is just beyond any serious consideration what is your point? Or have I misread you?

_________________
Greg Schofield, Perth Australia

I must admit I use winXP here, I use it for all my net use, games and a couple of other things, but once I have OS4 on my A1 I'll be trying to use as much amiga specific software as possible.

Of course XP is far more advanced than OS4, it has a multi-billion dollar company developing it.

Will OS4 (or OS4.1...onwards) ever be as modern as XP and its derivatives?...nope, do I care that it can't do this and that?....nope...as long as I can do what I do now in a reasonable manner, i'll accept I will be lagging in the bells & whistles department.

_________________

GregS I agree with both you and Crumb, there is definately
a solid foundation in place - a lot of what is needed to be
viable for the "mainstream" is integration and detail work.
It's a tedious task and will certainly take some organized
efforts, but I agree the goal is not (by any means) unreachable.

Quote:

Quote: Quote: 20 Logging and rollback I don't know exactly what you mean. System Restore point. One can try beta drivers and yet having the ability to roll back IF the beta drivers didn't work out.

Erm wtf would we need that? beta testing is basically rename the old file (and it is usually 1 or 2 files not 20-50mb af assorted bloat), copy the new one over, possibly reboot, test it...

If it fails, delete it, rename the old files... simple. No nasty registry to deal with, and a logical directory structure makes life a lot simpler

msshadow... hmmmm... amiga's have had that for years it's called 'Copy' it lives in the C: directory and it's 7k...

_________________
OS4 Rocks
X1000 beta tester, Sam440 Flex (733)

Visit the Official OS4 Support Site for more help.

It may be that your sole purpose is to serve as a warning to others.

Quote:

GregS wrote: @-D- Quote: Yes, *some* of these things can be done on AOS with enough time and effort, but even simple things like checking Hotmail are pretty much broken to some extent or another...that's kind of a necessity for the consumer market...honestly, I spend lots of fun hours toying with 'niche' OS's like AOS(3.x)/MorphOS/Linux, but I sure as hell wouldn't recommend them to my parents. :

Hi GregS,

Agree with all (I cut it instead of reposting entire commentary).

This is what I always try to bring across in my posts. (I think it's recognized as such by most.)


Quote:

L8-X wrote: Will OS4 (or OS4.1...onwards) ever be as modern as XP and its derivatives?...nope, do I care that it can't do this and that?....nope...as long as I can do what I do now in a reasonable manner, i'll accept I will be lagging in the bells & whistles department.

Hi L8-X,

I think we'll NOT be missing as much as we think we will (or others will lead us to believe).

I mean, we want a computer that will come on in <20 seconds, we can doodle, watch a movie, capture screens, DTP, WP, programm something QUICKLY (dirty code), browse the net, answer e-mail, have simple games, OR complex ones, and TURN OFF in a moments notice, if it serves our purpose!!! (And of course, so many of the little things.)


Quote:

Quote: Quote: 20 Logging and rollback I don't know exactly what you mean. System Restore point. One can try beta drivers and yet having the ability to roll back IF the beta drivers didn't work out.

Quote:

Severin wrote: Erm wtf would we need that? beta testing is basically rename the old file (and it is usually 1 or 2 files not 20-50mb af assorted bloat), copy the new one over, possibly reboot, test it... If it fails, delete it, rename the old files... simple. No nasty registry to deal with, and a logical directory structure makes life a lot simpler msshadow... hmmmm... amiga's have had that for years it's called 'Copy' it lives in the C: directory and it's 7k...

Hi Severin,




Can't remember what it was, but a recent program (no older than 2 years, Medal of Honour?), DIDN'T have an UNINSTALL option!?!


AOS4.0! NOT the same; JUST how we want it!!!!!

@Hammer

Quote:

32. Basic preview thumbnail pictures.

Hey, a neat windows feature! I kinda liked this when I first saw it.

Still don't have a decent paint program though!

_________________
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@Atheist

Quote:

2) xp doesn't support multiple CPUs. So we're okay there.

So how am I using WinXP on a dual 667Mhz machine here at work?

hmm.. xp is not very advanced.... or, if you like 10000 virus and some
big time problems with the hardware.. or old sofware...
And there some system slowdown!!!!!!!



And you say dx is so *!##¤=(& Good ??? HMMM.....
nearly 166157 KB and you get some dll. libs for windows...
and of course you need display drivers TOO!! 5-30mb

(a1200 voodoo3 driv and p96.. under 600 kb..
and 3d driv.. warp3d 4.2 1.2mb)

that is good programming, fast drivers and no wasted HD space!!

and it's not very personal interface for your computer....
everybody have to have the same OS!! an AHH we like Bill Gates and
his great software!

have to pay licenses and have to get every day.. or moth new virus and
service pack updates... if you want your GREAT WINDOWS to WORK.

JESS!!! OH GOD how good operating system!:!!:!:!:!!

_________________
Amiga4ever

@sloxa
Quote:

hmm.. xp is not very advanced....

Define "xp is not very advanced".

Quote:

if you like 10000 virus

Windows is a larger target for virus makers due to market desktop dominance.

Quote:

and of course you need display drivers TOO!! 5-30mb (a1200 voodoo3 driv and p96.. under 600 kb..

An an example, NVIDIA?s unified drivers support NV video cards from TNT(NV4) to the latest GeforceFX (NV36). The drivers support the latest DirectX9 feature sets. They also carry the latest accelerated OpenGL feature sets.

They also include other features and these are;
1. Support for(keystone) projectors i.e. settings/fixes warped projections.
2. Temperature probe support, AGP settings, over_clocking, auto_overclocking, colour corrections (for overlay/VMR, desktop), profile settings, display rotation, refresh-overrides.
3. Display wizards, 3D Quality settings, per application user profiles, multi-desktop support with different settings for each (XWindows style), zoom, NV's custom task switcher, TV-Out settings, NV's multi-monitor support (clone, span, etc), NV's display control panel.

That?s just one display driver set i.e. ATI?s Cat 3.X drivers would have a comparable feature sets to their main rival. Note that 3DFX Voodoo3 HW?s features set is roughly equivalent to DirectX 6 i.e. TNT era.

Then there's Matrox, XGI, Intel, S3 and 'etc'.

Quote:

have to pay licenses and have to get every day..

Note that when bought your packaged Amiga1200, you also obtained a license to run AmigaOS 3.x on your machine. This is the same with any commercial Amiga applications. IF you don't 'like' MS applications products then there are SUN's StarOffice6.0, Lotus (IBM) SmartSuite 9.x, Corel Office and 'etc'.

Quote:

JESS!!! OH GOD how good operating system!:!!:!:!:!!

Please recall when Amiga was at its peak in regards to virus.... Have you recalled Amiga Computing?s cover disk usually have a new version of virus controllers?
Have you recalled CBM has allowed WB 1.3.x update disk to be shipped with magazine cover disks? Shipping service packs to end users is not a new idea.

_________________
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Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3a/Emu68)

@Hammer

I see you are lost in the unreal world of Microsoft and are confused what an OS really is.

An Operating system is the program the runs the computer and handles basic I/O
such as file handling and storage.
Something Microsoft handles very poorly as I again proved this afternoon. I could not get Microsoft to install Blotoshop with a slightly scratched disk. It was incapable of pulling the archive off the disk and would just lock up the machine. After RESETING the crap SIX times.
I tested the disk in my A1200 and yes it was damaged but the A1200 pulled the data off the CDROM after a few tries and I was able to get it onto my A1200 HD. I then installed it over the network onto my Pissy.

Movie players and browsers are APPLICATIONS not OS features.

Microsoft keeps building in applications to keep people from noticing that it. Severly sucks as an OS and is almost impossible to fix. On Monday the #$% Machine came up on login and said "Reinstall windows can't run Internet Explorer." It Would not let me into the OS to fix anything not even in safe mode. On the Amiga if Ibrowse or AWEB is messed up at least you can still boot your machine also on the Amiga if you have an error on a floppy or a CD your machine doesn't lock up.

This happpened to me after Installing a new USB driver.
Trust me Microsoft does USB just plain wrong. How many people had to reinstall windows from scratch because it decided that thier new Digicam is a keyboard and therefore it would not let them use the proper driver.

People want an alternative. The blind Yuppy sheep of the eighties who brought PC's because of the name IBM are gone. Replaced by young people who know better and are now sick of the crude from Micro$oft and are hungry for any resonable alternative.

rant over blood cooling.
ohh I feel one last rant coming on MICRO$C@#$P SUCKS!!!!!

better