I had this argument with many people on this board. My claim was that AmigaOS4 is not intuitive and we think it is because we have +20 years of experience with it. People said OS4 is easy, understandable, have clear file system structure and so on.

Today I came across link to report on porting efforts of Open Office 4 Kids.

http://wiki.ooo4kids.org/index.php/EnvironmentSetup/AmigaOS

As you can see someone able to be part of OO4K team (we can assume he's computer literate) has hard time grasping AmigaOS. That does not surprise me at least, but maybe this one data point (totally nonscientific in terms of usability study) will give some fans idea that you can't just assume that AmigaOS is somehow superior for a user/developers with no Amiga background.

Before "TOSers" will start crying about my "negativity", I wanted to suggest that if AEon will continue effort of getting software ports by donating hardware to developers someone in community or (that would be better) AEon would write a guide. I imagine it to be a document that covers concepts of AmigaOS and then equate it to solutions available on other OSes.

For example: Installation, AmigaOS has no concept of central repository and there's no one defined place to install your software. However, if installation script is provided some parts of software can end up in system folders: C: (binaries, /usr/bin on Linux), Libs: (libraries, /usr/lib on Linux) [...]

Also, a package with SDK, X11 and Geek Gadgets all setup for developer so he won't have to dig around for files. Plus Spot's porting guide, Zerohero docs on cross compilers. Everything. One package.

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@opi

I agree a guide would be incredibly useful.

From the looks of it, he's coming with a lot of preconceived notions about things working like Linux.
I must admit that playing with AOS and AROS again, I have some of the same issues...

That said, I think the threshold to *learning* AmigaOS is quite low. It's simple for the most part. It's just that whereas before there were a number of easily accessible books that covered "everything", we're now stuck with a mix of old and partly outdated books, docs in the SDK, and bits and pieces of information scattered everywhere.

Further, as someone getting back into programming for the Amiga: There are a *ton* of pitfalls related to old legacy functionality in the OS and "new" functionality. Even 1.2/1.3 vs 2.04 changes, that I remember from before I left back in the day...

So even with the SDK docs, we could really use a "best practices" document or tutorial(s) for various parts of AOS, ideally with notes on how to retain portability to older AOS and variants as well.

I'd happily volunteer to read through and offer comments on anything like that if someone takes it on, from the perspective of someone who's largely skipped over anything after 2.04 :)

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@vidarh

Quote:

From the looks of it, he's coming with a lot of preconceived notions about things working like Linux.

I think this is a major source of interested developers. FOSS people have strong feelings for unorthodox platforms and are willing to learn new stuff.

Quote:

bits and pieces of information scattered everywhere.

That is why "mega-ultra-just-add-water" pack seems to be good idea to me.

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@vidarh

Quote:

From the looks of it, he's coming with a lot of preconceived notions about things working like Linux.

Yeah, thats the only real problem this guy seems to have. Remembering that hes using a different system.

In the further read, the next problem was/is the mess called "SDK". It was never denied (even by the hardest fanboy) that Amiga development is quite difficult today, because of the information being scattered all over the world/internet and the kept-on secrecy made up around the OS internals etc.

Definetly, some more (and better) documentation, guides, programming books etc. are still missing. And a "download one thing, install, be happy" SDK package.

@opi

Quote:

I think this is a major source of interested developers. FOSS people have strong feelings for unorthodox platforms and are willing to learn new stuff.

Yes, that's what brought me to Linux in the first place when I "had to" find a platform more viable for me for work etc... It's kept me happily employed without touching Windows ever since... :)

Keeping in mind that I haven't used AOS4, but just AROS and classic AOS, here's some of my experiences:

* No single source of docs
* Doing things in the shell is *really* painful, since I lack so many tools.
* What editor to use? I used to use CED, but in the meantime I've gotten used to Emacs with a large set of editing modes with syntax highlighting and intelligent indentation. And in any case, after trying most of the editors available on Aminet, every single one I found had major shortcomings. I'm leaning towards either getting CED, or using Emacs on the Amiga too. But Emacs isn't very Amiga-ish.
* Compiler environment. Especially if I want to port things that depends on autoconf/automake etc.. Also if I want to cross compile...
* Package management... I've gotten addicted to having package management on Linux, and being able to list, search, install and uninstall applications in a single uniform way... Almost all OSS platforms have package management of some kinds today that supports multiple repositories so users can set up their own. Going back to installers that leave behind a ton of files all over the place and no central repository of information about what's installed feels like a giant step backwards.

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Yeah, good call opi AOS really needs an apps directory to install programs under ...be nice if it kept games in a separate games directory too!

we should never shun a good idea just because it is used in other OS's ....even if is Windoze!

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@opi

A lot of that is a matter of what he is or is not used to. I'm finding it not intuitive to debug a makefile in Linux using Denx's ELDK. Is that because the ELDK and Linux are lacking, or is it because I'm used to something different than that? If we made everything exactly like Linux, then we don't have AmigaOS, we have Linux. Or Windows or Mac or whatever. The whole point of differentiating to a different OS is that it is somehow different.

I would like to see more and improved documentation for things for AmigaOS and SDK though. It may take a few uncomfortable developers used to other platforms to help weed out things we're assumed to know well, and to find some nitty gritty detail issues to clean up.

I was suprised to see this project is with someone not from the Amiga community. I'm happy that anyone outside of "us" is willing to take on such a task.

I thought it odd that he seemed to not have a clue what hardware he would get and that it seems to have taken quite a while to figure that out.

Last edited by billt on 12-May-2010 at 03:56 PM.

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@Panthro

Quote:

Yeah, good call opi AOS really needs an apps directory to install programs under ...be nice if it kept games in a separate games directory too!

I rather like being able to put things where I like. I'm quite happy that Windows has finally evolved to allowing me to do that as well. I always organized things to
Work:Apps
Work:Internet
Work:Games
Work:Develop
etc.

Perhaps that is such an odd concept that computer geeks from other platforms don't even think of that as an option for them to do, but I am happy that installers are not mandating things so much as it MUST go into Work:Apps and cannot go anywhere else.

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@billt

My idea is to ease teething pains of new developers, especially when they came from different OSes.

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@opi

Quote:

My idea is to ease teething pains of new developers, especially when they came from different OSes.

It may take a few like this to get there. Hopefully these people will be patient enough to make it through.

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Yes, I also think that it's not as simple to grasp as a newbie, but then again, how easy was it for those guys to find their way around Linux when they first started coding apps for it? I still have awful trouble with Linux and Windows, I don't know what most of the files do or what they look like when they cause problems, and I find myself constantly Googling filenames when I'm trying to fix issues.

I do think a guide for new "advanced users" would be excellent - the average Joe can use Notepad just fine - it's in Amidock right there - but for better editors many people (including this guy) would be stumped. Ed is there of course, but there are some good, free to download ones that could be listed with such a guide...

Perhaps this is something Hyperion could include in the SDK for download?

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Imho the most important problems for now (for all the new developers), it's ugly default shell. Many developers use it all the time. Only who was in amiga know, that there is a KCON replacement, but any new users of course, do not know that, and will not. They just install it fresh, run "newcli", and say - "ugly". And it's true.

I know that some kind of "good" shell in developing for last year (or few), but still, by default we have very primitive shell.

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Some thoughts

Quote:

there are only two USB ports available. One for the keyboard, and one for the mouse. So how to add my USB key containing the softwares

I didn't realize there were only 2 USBs. Odd, I agree with this guy, there should be more. I obviously have never seen a SAM board myself.

Quote:

Strange .info files included (sort of blobs).

Strange only because you're not used to that. Doesn't make it wrong.

Quote:

install other missing pieces, like AmiCygnix

That's not part of the OS, I don't consider it to be "missing". What does he think he absolutely needs this for? I'd prefer to get a native tool over a dependency on a 3rd foreign API. Maybe he just wants something more familiar, I hope it doesn't lead to disaster. Amicygnix may be an interesting step on the path to full native, hopefully it doesn't bog him down and take a lot of time away from porting to native.

Quote:

reinstall the SDK at the right location

Is there a right or a wrong location? I thought the SDK installer gives a default location that works just fine?

Quote:

found no vi nor emacs nor whatever else correct editor on the machine

What does he mean by "correct editor"? He prefiously links to where he found the subversion tool download at os4depot, odd that he did not also find the vim (vi improved) download there. Vim is what I use for all my text editing needs, as I'm very used to it from using Linux at work. I agree that ed could use some updating and new features.

Quote:

* uname -a returns : AmigaOS localhost 53.2 3.5 ppc AMCC PPC440EP Sam440EP AmigaOS -> the version is plain wrong. must be 4.1, and 3.5 is returned

A good catch, should be fixed.

For the shell, I believe there is a bash shell available, again at os4depot
http://www.os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=development/utility/abc-shell.lha

Last edited by billt on 12-May-2010 at 04:41 PM.

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Is this guy on any of the Amiga forums? Maybe someone should give him a nudge in this direction - might speed things up considerably over figuring them out himself...

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@billt

Quote:

Strange only because you're not used to that. Doesn't make it wrong.

He could educate himself, but there's no resource where he could look upon: .info, a binary file that defines icon for a file. In AmigaOS icons server more purposes than on other systems. You can set tooltypes (ini style configurations that lives within icon) and define default program that will run with this program.

Quote:

Is there a right or a wrong location?

If YOU ask this question don't be surprised that someone new have no idea what directories are in path and what assign ADD will do for him.

Quote:

What does he mean by "correct editor"?

A editor that's capable of doing some work for him. You can use any editor but both Vim and Emacs are features rich and ease development. Please, understand, some skills should be transferable. If he knows how to handle Vim well, he can use it on any major platform, so he expect the same from AmigaOS.

How well does Vim work on con:? Does it do all the fancy stuff like :vopen, :colorscheme and so on?

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@biilt
Quote:

For the shell, I believe there is a bash shell available, again at os4depot http://www.os4depot.net/index.php?function=showfile&file=development/utility/abc-shell.lha

You know what we mean when say "ugly default shell" :) That is not about abc, kcon, or replacement. We just about default shell window which user run first time. It's primitive, and everyone want and wait when new-impovement shell will be released for aos4 and will be default all the time. It's not about "cd .." or "/". It's about settings, scroll buffers, etc. For me strange, why for example KCON replacement are not default for the OS right now. Well.. for me also stange why pngicon.module are not part of OS too.

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@billt

Quote:

For the shell, I believe there is a bash shell available, again at os4depot

That does make things more pleasant for those of us used to Linux, yes. But you're still dependent on the console handler, for example, and last I tried abc on AROS there was all kind of really painful issues with the way they interact (key combinations that the console handler doesn't pass on but handle itself - for example tab completion, which with the proper scripts saves a *lot* of time by being context sensitive and not only completing file names.

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@opi

Quote:

From that website: Hardware side : there are only two USB ports available. One for the keyboard, and one for the mouse. So how to add my USB key containing the softwares I downloaded ? ( please think 3 or 4 USB ports, 2 is not enough).

Hmm.. I have 4 in mine...

Quote:

From that website: Strange .info files included (sort of blobs). These files are icons. They contain the imagery (both unselected and selected images) as well as optional one time configuration.

IMHO, I think these .info files should be split so that the tooltypes gets its own file so that things gets easier, like:

MyApp
MyApp.icons
MyApp.prefs

Or with other extension names, f. ex:

MyApp
MyApp.icon
MyApp.config

Instead of having both the tooltypes (configuration) and the icons in the same .info file as:

MyApp
MyApp.info

Last edited by marko on 12-May-2010 at 05:55 PM.
Last edited by marko on 12-May-2010 at 05:40 PM.
Last edited by marko on 12-May-2010 at 05:32 PM.

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@opi
FWIW, your post seems *constuctively* critical, so I don't have any problem with it at all. The thought wouldn't have even crossed my mind if you hadn't raised the issue...

BTW, while I think your initial point is a straw man (I don't think many would claim the Amiga is so intrinsically easy that it can be learnt without any documentation), your main point seems good that better documentation is needed for newbies. The problem is that there aren't enough real newbies (vs ex-Amigans) to make such a documentation effort worth-while yet, although it's obviously going to need to be tackled at some point. If you want to help organise such an effort...

Last edited by ChrisH on 12-May-2010 at 05:38 PM.

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@ChrisH

Quote:

straw man

I have no will to go looking for some old posts where we had huge argument about how "it's all natural" vs. "DLL hell".

Quote:

If you want to help organise such an effort...

I would be willing to contribute if someone will have mental strength to edit my English. I sucks at organizing things.

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