@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @BrianK Sadly hype plays a very important role this generation of consoles, mostly due to Microsoft's involvement. Some hype is justified like Playstation Move and 3D gaming, other hype this generation is not. For example the two most hyped XBox features this generation seem to be cross game chat and background music choice. Let's say you are a 80's gamer living in the 80s playing your games on an Amiga connected to your sound system, have a modem and wireless phone in your bedroom. You put on your favourite song while playing an Amiga game, which outputs through the same setup (you are able to disable the ingame sound and/or music as you desire) and you call a friend talking about the game you are playing while he's playing something else. Now something exciting happens you get a call from some gamer living in 2010, more than 2 decades into the future to tell you how great gaming is nowadays! He happens to be a XBox fanboy and starts telling you how far gaming has evolved. XBOX fanboy: "YoU WoNt BeLiEve tHIs!!!!! Microsoft (of MSDOS fame, BTW Steve Ballmer, that crazy guy you see on TV promoting Reversi is now Microsoft's CEO and world's 43th richest person in the world and is famous for his dancing performances!) has a console on the market with which you can talk with people who aren't playing the game you are playing!!!!!!" "You can even listen to your favourite music while disabling the original ingame music!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I think this would sound very ackward if not straight out depressing to any hardcore gamer / computer expert from the 80s. The idea that such things could even remotely be hypeable decades into the future is really weird. But sadly that's exactly the case and even the bulk of people nowadays don't understand this.

That was pretty lame. What happens when you have to hang up your phone so you can actually play your friend over the occassional came that supported play over a 1200BAUD connection...?

I'm glad I quoted your last two posts. You seem bitter. Perhaps you should just post less and play more PS3 games...and enjoy them for your own personal taste rather than try to convince everyone to buy your lemonade. It is sour lemonade indeed.

@Lou

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That was pretty lame. What happens when you have to hang up your phone so you can actually play your friend over the occassional came that supported play over a 1200BAUD connection...?

In-game chat is an 80's feature, I was talking about cross game chat. Like playing on your Amiga or Atari Lynx with someone not playing the game you play or doing something entirely else and then chat (something I am not really interested in, unless it's important). Also two or more phone lines within one household wasn't science fiction back then.

Nowadays so many people own laptops connected wirelessly to broadband internet. Being able to communicate with other people over the internet is now even far less hypeable. With the 360 you can't even browse the web. Having a laptop in your living room while playing your console offers by far more features and possibilities. My wife for example uses Facebook a lot on her iPhone, she can chat almost anywhere she goes including in our living room (she has unlimited 3G internet access on the phone).

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Perhaps you should just post less and play more PS3 games...

Sadly I am currently swamped in my work (this week about 60 hours plus about 12 hours on the road). The little time I have for gaming the last couple of days I dedicate to playing Civilization V.

I am already posting little for my standards.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Sadly I am currently swamped in my work (this week about 60 hours plus about 12 hours on the road). The little time I have for gaming the last couple of days I dedicate to playing Civilization V. I am already posting little for my standards.

Mr. PS3 plays a PC game when time is limited?

More positive news. Playstation Move sold 1.5 million units its first month available in just Europe. PS3 sales are expected to exceed 15 million this fiscal year.

http://www.pushsquare.com/19946/playstation-3-to-exceed-sales-estimate-playstation-move-shifts-1-5-million-units/

This holiday season should be huge for the PS3!

@MikeB

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Sadly hype plays a very important role this generation of consoles, mostly due to Microsoft's involvement.

What you call hype is simply advertising the way it's been done forever. Remember the 19th century with corner barkers shouting each other down? Blame whomever you want but all the companies do it.

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Some hype is justified like Playstation Move and 3D gaming, other hype this generation is not. For example the two most hyped XBox features this generation seem to be cross game chat and background music choice.

The hype is not background music. It's a feature EVERYONE can take advantage of. The hype is 3D which costs thousands for a new set and is applicable to a couple of games and a couple of movies. It may be coming but mainstream penetration it is not.

I find it interesting that you bizatch about a $5/month Live fee. Then you promote the deintegrated solution for chat (phone line/cell phone) and for music. Chat is more elegant integrated into the console and across games than in your model. Additionally your model now costs more as a cheap cell phone is $30/month so 6x the expense of live. The same goes for music. In your model you have lost game sound effects and audio notices of when you turn off the game source. If you want both sources you must now buy more audio equipment. Again more expense and not as simple.

One complaint you had about the 360 was the external power brick and extra power cord for the Kinect. However, in your 'hype' complaint to get around it you are using seperate items. A phone adds cords and/or power supplies. This negates a power brick of the 360. Additional audio equipment adds cords, power supplies, and the equipment itself. Way more connections and complexities than a Kinect. I'm sorry but I see you not thinking through you complaints fully and being inconsitent on what you really like or not on your console. What I see consistant is your undying hatred of the stamp 'Microsoft'. To the point of conflicting your own statements.

@BrianK

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What you call hype is simply advertising the way it's been done forever.

The way of promotion by XBox fans, trying to sell XBox Live for Microsoft is pretty unique I think as explained above.

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The hype is 3D

The hype is justified, I think once you experience some good implementations you will agree.

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Then you promote the deintegrated solution

I don't promote anything, I just talk about alternatives and why IMO this shouldn't be hyped that much.

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One complaint you had about the 360 was the external power brick and extra power cord for the Kinect

The brick is freaking huge and the 360 was supplied with rigid cabling, it was a mess trying it to suit my CE setup. Kinect is freaking huge as well for a camera intended to put nearby your TV set. A mobile phone stand or power cord cable (usually put away in a drawer) most only use at night for recharging a phone, not messy at all.

@MikeB

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The way of promotion by XBox fans, trying to sell XBox Live for Microsoft is pretty unique I think as explained above

These are unique as the PS3 doesn't do it. They are features others are using, enjoying, and they fell would be lost with a switch to a different console. Having both PSN and Live Gold I can say that Live Gold is still above PSN overall. PSN is getting closer but it's not quite there yet. It's easy to say 'well it's free' as an excuse to forgive what's missing or a bit less eloquence.

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The hype is justified, I think once you experience some good implementations you will agree

Certainly great idea, no doubt. Having 3-5 games and 3-5 movies in 3D and dumping my 46" HDTV for a $2K 3DTV makes no sense for most people at this juncture. The game must be KILLER for someone to spend $60 for the game and another $2K to play it in 3D. When much more content is available, the 3D Fine surcharge is removed, glasses cheap and some killer app arrives then I'll look at getting into this. What I expect is the 8th gen console from Microsoft and Sony will push this. Nintendo already said no, but they have time to change their mind.

Heck at present a used HD-DVD player has more use than 3D. It's cheaper, no need to dump a working TV set, there's far more HD content than 3D content, and movies are a few bucks. Certainly no future but at present far more usable content.

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I just talk about alternatives and why IMO this shouldn't be hyped that much.

The alternatives are non-integrated solutions, cost more, result in more cables, and result in more power connectors. The last 3 of those are things you complained about on the 360 in other conversations. But, seemingly you are willing to accept them now if you can pay more to do them? IMO this reduces the value of your 'complaints' to be nickpicky fanboisms.

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The brick is freaking huge

Yup. Fits fine in my TV stand and I never see it. Not a problem.

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was supplied with rigid cabling,

Huh? They are flexible power cords the only 'rigid' things are the brick and the plugs.

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Kinect is freaking huge

Still smaller than the mixer you'd have to buy to mix your console audio w/ your audio into your receiver in your alternative method of using different music on your games. And your mixer doesn't cut out the game music, which the 360 can do. Sorry but your alternative choices are worse than the features built into the console as they're more expensive and add more stuff to the setup. Didn't you even love HDMI because you could get rid of your audio cables? Now what you want to use HDMI and an audio cable so you can do a mixer? Come on man you're making little consistency here. (Well except your drive to ensure that if it says Microsoft then poop on it.)

Last edited by BrianK on 15-Oct-2010 at 05:27 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 15-Oct-2010 at 03:34 PM.

@MikeB

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. My wife for example uses Facebook a lot on her iPhone, she can chat almost anywhere she goes including in our living room (she has unlimited 3G internet access on the phone).

Wow what an inconsitent statement. You hate Live Gold's $5/month charge. Instead you promote use an iPhone ($150 phone or alternatively add-on the Kinect) for Facebook and chat ($80/month data plan)? Certainly an iPhone is necessary if you want to take Facebook with you on a go. But, if you don't why should anyone spend 16x more money to do this when the 360 chats and does Facebook? Your hatred of Microsoft is blinding and much much more costly.

(And to mention I get 1 bar of reception on my phone in my house. Sometimes no reception. A cellular phone just isn't a great option to rely upon.)

Last edited by BrianK on 15-Oct-2010 at 07:46 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 15-Oct-2010 at 05:39 PM.

@BrianK

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BrianK wrote: @MikeB IMO this reduces the value of your 'complaints' to be nickpicky fanboisms.

No, not MikeB! I call shennanigans!

@BrianK

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BrianK wrote: @MikeB Quote: . My wife for example uses Facebook a lot on her iPhone, she can chat almost anywhere she goes including in our living room (she has unlimited 3G internet access on the phone). Wow what an inconsitent statement. You hate Live Gold's $5/month charge. Instead you promote use an iPhone ($150 phone or alternatively add-on the Kinect) for Facebook and chat ($80/month data plan)? Certainly an iPhone is necessary if you want to take Facebook with you on a go. But, if you don't why should anyone spend 16x more money to do this when the 360 chats and does Facebook? Your hatred of Microsoft is blinding and much much more costly. (And to mention I get 1 bar of reception on my phone in my house. Sometimes no reception. A cellular phone just isn't a great option to rely upon.)

Yes, smartphones have mandatory data plans now despite the fact that all features will work if you have wi-fi. Heck, what they don't tell you about the iPhone is that the 'face-time' feature doesn't work with the data plan, it NEEDS wi-fi because AT&T is too cheap to allow that much bandwidth to be used... So why are we paying for a data-plan again?

Thank god I got an original Google G1 and was able to drop the data plan after 3 months. Grandfathered in with T-Mobile, thanks! Screw Apple & AT&T...

@MikeB

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Kinect is freaking huge as well for a camera intended to put nearby your TV set.

Alas MikeB the Kinect is not A camera. The Eye is 1 camera the Kinect is 3 cameras. In order to do Z depth tracking Sony gave you the blue balls. Microsoft is doing this with a 2nd camera. The 3rd camera is infrared. This allows actions during low light conditions. Again the glowing balls of the Move does this. Also the unit itself does most of the calculations where the Eye is done on an SPE. So there's far more in there than 'a camera'.

As for 'freaking huge' it's about twice the width of the Eye. Depth, matters little as it's less deep than any console. Height is about the same. It's more attractive than the PS Eye. Kinect is a rectangle looking unit. The Eye is a rectangle (mics) above a ball (camera). This gives the unit an inverted pyramid structure. I'm sure it's stable but it visually appears to be top heavy and therefore ascetically less attractive. And and not to mention the ugliness of the throbing blue balls. The Move doesn't do anything the WiiMote couldn't do without the ugliness.

@Lou

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is that the 'face-time' feature doesn't work with the data plan, it NEEDS wi-fi because AT&T is too cheap to allow that much bandwidth to be used

Something I hadn't followed. Thanks for the information. Of course now that Wi-Fi is needed it saps bandwidth from the console. The question becomes one of amount of bandwidth required and connection required. If the bandwidth used for 'face-time' is larger than the bandwidth for video chat in game on a console there's another penality as it'll sap your gaming bandwidth.

EDIT: And of course 'face-time' (as MikeB purposes using iPhones instead) requires all users to have PS3s and iPhones. If one has a console chatting makes sense to other users on the console w/o requiring them to buy a non-related object to do that function. One plus of the Xbox chat is it connects to LIVE. LIVE is a messaging product on many millions of PCs and cellphones. One therefore has chat across device types. Something the iPhone does not.I suppose that's why MikeB needs to supplement the iPhone with a laptop (another $500 expense). One could pay for more than 8 years of Xbox Gold with that.

Seeing chat as 'hype' is more and more silly. We've seen the alternative solution as unintegrated so more complex to use, needing much more cost in hardware, and 16x the cost a month in services. $300 for 5 years or more than $5,000? I suppose for some avoiding Microsoft is worth the $5000 more out of their bank account.

Last edited by BrianK on 16-Oct-2010 at 04:00 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 16-Oct-2010 at 03:36 PM.

@BrianK

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BrianK wrote: @Lou Quote: is that the 'face-time' feature doesn't work with the data plan, it NEEDS wi-fi because AT&T is too cheap to allow that much bandwidth to be used Something I hadn't followed. Thanks for the information. Of course now that Wi-Fi is needed it saps bandwidth from the console. The question becomes one of amount of bandwidth required and connection required. If the bandwidth used for 'face-time' is larger than the bandwidth for video chat in game on a console there's another penality as it'll sap your gaming bandwidth. EDIT: And of course 'face-time' (as MikeB purposes using iPhones instead) requires all users to have PS3s and iPhones. If one has a console chatting makes sense to other users on the console w/o requiring them to buy a non-related object to do that function. One plus of the Xbox chat is it connects to LIVE. LIVE is a messaging product on many millions of PCs and cellphones. One therefore has chat across device types. Something the iPhone does not.I suppose that's why MikeB needs to supplement the iPhone with a laptop (another $500 expense). One could pay for more than 8 years of Xbox Gold with that. Seeing chat as 'hype' is more and more silly. We've seen the alternative solution as unintegrated so more complex to use, needing much more cost in hardware, and 16x the cost a month in services. $300 for 5 years or more than $5,000? I suppose for some avoiding Microsoft is worth the $5000 more out of their bank account.

Agreed.

My other point that may not have come across is that Apple is all hype. Data plans from all carriers, the cheapest I've seen is $15/month... AND YET for hyped up features, you can only use FACETIME if wi-fi is available regardless of 3G or 4G service. That's FAIL! That's bull feces hype and bull feces marketing.

How do I know? My company bought me an iPhone 4. (I've since left the company for a new position elsewhere and gave it back, but that's neither here nor there.)

http://www.joystiq.com/2010/10/15/pachter-254k-wiis-sold-in-september-312k-ps3s/

Microsoft wins in Sept.
PS3 edges out Wii by 60k-ish. Color me unimpressed considering the supposed Move-momentum.

---------------------------------
Also, while this looks like a quality tablet, I think the price is too high because a simple "drawing" game surely isn't worth $50 by itself...making the tablet seem like it's only $20. The whole package should be $50, imho.
http://www.joystiq.com/2010/10/15/thq-pencils-in-udraw-release-date-november-14/
The price will hinder sales which will be prohibitive to future title support.

Last edited by Lou on 16-Oct-2010 at 10:12 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 16-Oct-2010 at 10:07 PM.

@BrianK

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These are unique as the PS3 doesn't do it.

Some may behave as wanting to sell Playstation Plus, I don't know. Overall though in general PS3 users seem to make more educated comments and overall more mature.

Vocal XBox users usually seem overly angry at Sony/Playstation for whatever reason. That's funny considering a lot of them seem to hail Microsoft, one of the companies with the worst reputation in the world.

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Having both PSN and Live Gold I can say that Live Gold is still above PSN overall.

For me the PSN is miles and miles beyond anything XBox live Gold does. For example just look at what users are able to contribute to the PSN in LittleBigPlanet 2 beta. Just look for some youtube videos, I think that already clearly demonstrates the level of freedom difference.

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Having 3-5 games and 3-5 movies in 3D

The library of games announced with 3D support is IMO getting freakingly huge on the PS3. Even a PS3 launch title like Ridge Racer 7 is being updated for 3D! On the movie front, Blu-Ray 3D is progressing faster than I anticipated.

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Heck at present a used HD-DVD player has more use than 3D.

Just reread your logic. HD DVD is a dead format, Blu-Ray 3D is emerging. It's like saying don't buy a XBox 720 because the Snes has so many games available in comparison...

@Lou

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Mr. PS3 plays a PC game when time is limited?

If you've paid attention Civilization is one of my favourite game series, just like Mario. I played Civilization and Colonization as a kid on Amigas and I bought the sequels for Windows.

But to comfort you, so far I played Civilization Revolution more on the PS3. I finished all types of winning scenarios and played online (free on the PS3). After winning a massive online match I gave the game to someone else.

Last edited by MikeB on 17-Oct-2010 at 05:25 PM.

@BrianK

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Instead you promote use an iPhone ($150 phone or alternatively add-on the Kinect) for Facebook and chat ($80/month data plan)?

I do not promote anything. It is the way it is, I pay like 10 euros per month for unlimited broadband internet on her iPhone. She uses it a lot, listening to internet radio stations, using facebook, google maps, etc, etc. Lots of cool stuff. I am not promoting iPhone though, there are quite a few friends who use Blackberries instead, rather sweet as well. Smartphones are certainly hypeable, as you can do so much, are portable and you can virtually use them anywhere around here. (In fact I wrote articles about what smartphones would be capable of performing today nearly a decade ago, you know I'm a tech enthusiast)

But personally I am not into that facebook stuff, etc. For what I use my phone for, I think it's the best phone on the planet, I think I have something like 100 free SMSs I am not using per month. Maybe I sent like 5 SMS messages a month, I usually prefer to call. If I had more spare time things may have been different.

I do however have wireless internet for my TomTom GPS. It's nice to be able to use google and other stuff when travelling. A couple of weeks ago I went to Switzerland by car, they provide handy features. A patient of mine who is an engine specialist recommended it would be good for the engine to drive fast to keep it in perfect condition (I own a BMW with a diesel engine). Driving 185km/h+ was fun on the German highway.

Last edited by MikeB on 17-Oct-2010 at 03:35 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 17-Oct-2010 at 03:34 PM.

@MikeB

European Move at 1.5M was good for the Move. Not great for the console as console sales don't appear to be majority changed. In the US the story was not as rosey only 300K? PS3 console sales dropped 37% from last year, comparing the month. OUCH!

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For me the PSN is miles and miles beyond anything XBox live Gold does. For example just look at what users are able to contribute to the PSN in LittleBigPlanet 2 beta

LBP2 is a game. If the developer converted to the 360 it's not like those features wouldn't exist. They could. So, therefore no it's not miles beyond. Halo:Reach has a more configurable building area than LBP1. Not sure against LbP2. And of course one can always join the developer club if they want to do things beyond what LBP2 does.

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HD DVD is a dead format, Blu-Ray 3D is emerging. It's like saying don't buy a XBox 720 because the Snes has so many games available in comparison.

The value for your dollar spent, today, is greater for HD DVD than it is for 3D. A large part of this is due to the need to scrap your HDTV for a new HDTV+Glasses+3D upcharge. Once that goes away the format will make more inroads. 2% of all HDTVs as 3D tells us that vendors aren't jumping in either. Even Sony said in 4 years less than 1/2 their TVs will do 3D. If they want 3D embraced than EVERY TV should do it and there should be no upcharge for the set.

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It is the way it is, I pay like 10 euros per month for unlimited broadband internet on her iPhone.

Great for Europe still 2x the cost of LIVE so one is kicking out money to use non-integrated features and assuming all PS3 owners also own an iPhone. What about those Android or WP7 and PS3 owners don't you want to chat with them? Unfortunately the costs in the US make this an even greater cost.

The rest of the post was interesting, thanks. But, didn't solve that your method provides neither a unified communication base for the console nor is cost effective.

EDIT: The other thing you haven't thought about is your method also adds an additional point of failure. If you're doing a massive chat on the console and the console breaks you're without chat. In your method you can now have a working console and a broken chat as perhaps your wife drops her iPhone. For example, one study said the iPhone 4 was twice as likely to break in a fall than the iPhone3. You are relying on two devices to give you one service which increases your single points of failure and makes it more likely you'll be unable to chat.

Comparing a console chat vs your alternative method the console chat wins in nearly every column.

Last edited by BrianK on 17-Oct-2010 at 03:54 PM.

@BrianK

300K for Playstation Move is OK for the US launch, it sold out for many shops. Mass promotion is only expected for the holiday season.

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PS3 console sales dropped 37% from last year, comparing the month. OUCH!

You worry too much, last year the PS3 received a price drop that month. Year over year worldwide sales figures are up significantly. The PS3 is likely to sell beyond 15 million this fiscal year and I predict it will sell around 20 million the year after.

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LBP2 is a game. If the developer converted to the 360 it's not like those features wouldn't exist.

It would have become an entirely different game, Microsoft does not allow that level of flexibility.

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2% of all HDTVs as 3D tells us that vendors aren't jumping in either.

3DTVs are being demoed everywhere around here. Vendors are certainly preparing consumers.

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Great for Europe still 2x the cost of LIVE

Online gaming is free on the PC and PS3. The cost for internet on a smartphone is nothing like XBox Live. You still need to pay for your internet connection in addition for your XBox, just that isn't enough. The XBox isn't portable like a smartphone (so you can't simply use it anywhere) and you can't even browse the web (so in terms of features also very different).

I think XBox Live (both Silver and Gold) are rather sucky services in comparison.

You can use your iPhone in the living room, I don't expect you to use your XBox on the road.... I think you produce a lot of fuss for nothing.

Last edited by MikeB on 17-Oct-2010 at 05:22 PM.

@MikeB

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300K for Playstation Move is OK for the US launch, it sold out for many shops.

The sales ratio of Moves to consoles is much worse in the US than in Europe. Total console sales are about 10% difference and the total Move ratio is 1/5th.

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Online gaming is free on the PC

Not completely. World of Warcraft, for example one of the most popular games on the market, is $15/month. 3x the cost of Live and just for 1 game where Live gives you access to thousands.

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The cost for internet on a smartphone is nothing like XBox Live. You still need to pay for your internet connection in addition for your XBox, just that isn't enough.

As Lou explained Facetime, aka video chat, requires not only a monthly subscription for a data plan but access to Wifi. If you're at home (console or not) and want to do video chat you need an internet connection and Wifi. So there's no change of charges as you imply there would be on the Xbox. Additionally, Facetime is more limited as it's not multiple partners in video chat. I guess it's hackable to some extent but out of the box it doesn't do it. Live does 4 person.

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The XBox isn't portable like a smartphone (so you can't simply use it anywhere)

I think we're working on different questions here. I'm looking at the pluses to have chat integrated on a console. You're simply looking at having chat. Something the iPhone doesn't do is connect to other devices for chat. The Xbox connects to Live which means a Windows PC (the most popular desktop OS in the world) and a Windows Phone (mobile options) can be connected to.

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You can use your iPhone in the living room

And this looses to the console experience. I now have a small 4" screen instead of a 50" screen to see the other person. I somehow have to hold the phone and use the controller to game at the same time. I sap a large amount of bandwidth from my internet to do video chat. Assuming the other person has an iPhone 4 so we could videochat with each other we can't communicate with the other 2 people on our team. Hope you don't want to coordinate an attack.

Think all you want that I produce a lot of fuss for nothing. Unfortunately your idea is more costly, not as easy to use, lacks features, and doesn't guarantee I can talk to the person at the other end.