@Lou

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Why waste time comparing little blips. You continue to fight small battles in a losing war.

IMO MikeB misses the big picture this generation. Nintendo is back on top at #1 again, they get the market. Microsoft is fighting a slightly different battle. But, outpacing their own internal expectations. Sony, OTOH, fell from #1. Is in a fight for #2. No where near their position last gen. And it took them a $5Billion loss to even get there. Sony has clearly missed the mojo of the PS2. 'I'm big in Japan' is really the only clear victory in gaming for Sony this generation.

@Lou

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Why waste time comparing little blips. You continue to fight small battles in a losing war.

May I remind you that you yourself repeatable quoted Japanese sales because the Wii was on top up until the point the PS3 took over? I don't do that, just used it to highlight the GT5 effect. It's not unlikely it has a similar effect on sales worldwide (probably more so in mainland Europe).

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You keep saying PS3 software sales out-pace 360 sales - but I don't see it. Show me.

I did so a couple of threads ago, you can look it up if you want. It's shipment data from Microsoft and Sony in financial reports (although last quarter Microsoft did not provide data, Sony reported a 40% increase in software sales year over year).

@BrianK

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As you say it's likely better to have 4 PS3s and 4 HDTVs and of course 4 copies of the game.

If it's a PSN game like Warhawk you can install it on all those 4 PS3s.

@BrianK

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IMO MikeB misses the big picture this generation. Nintendo is back on top at #1 again, they get the market. Microsoft is fighting a slightly different battle.

Both Microsoft and Nintendo have been number 1 with regard to gaming in the past, every "gen" there are new oppertunities.

I think you fail to see the big picture here. Sony was aiming for the long run, they did not want a PS2.5 even if it sold twice as fast at this point. They want to advance the market, for this they developed the Cell processor, added a high capacity Blu-Ray drive by default and decided on high specs like including a default harddrive and other onboard features which the other consoles lack out of the box.

There are multiple long run reasons for this. For 1 winning the Blu-Ray vs HDDVD war, due to mainly the PS3 that war was already over before it really began. Also Sony like to sell high quality HDTVs and audio systems, the PS3 is a great way to get easy access to content to show off the capabilities. Now Sony wants to push 3DTVs into the market and the PS3 helps a lot with regard to this.

Why do you continue to ignore the big picture? This was stated by many years ago on here already.

@BrianK

One question for you to ponder. Would you have been happy if the Amiga 500 was specced as lowly as an Atari 2600 but sold 10 times as much?

Please think a little before you answer.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: Why waste time comparing little blips. You continue to fight small battles in a losing war. May I remind you that you yourself repeatable quoted Japanese sales because the Wii was on top up until the point the PS3 took over? I don't do that, just used it to highlight the GT5 effect. It's not unlikely it has a similar effect on sales worldwide (probably more so in mainland Europe). Quote: You keep saying PS3 software sales out-pace 360 sales - but I don't see it. Show me. I did so a couple of threads ago, you can look it up if you want. It's shipment data from Microsoft and Sony in financial reports (although last quarter Microsoft did not provide data, Sony reported a 40% increase in software sales year over year).

So your basis is old MS data vs. new Sony data?

Here's all you need to know:

Total PlayStation 3 games sold as of June 30, 2010: 315.3 million
Total Xbox 360 games sold as of December 2009: 353.8 million
Total Wii games sold as of September 30, 2010: 610.04 million

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games

So basically what you say is a lie.

The PS3 has not outsold the Wii in Japan. It has been outselling it all year by several thousand a week and at that pace it will surpass the Wii in Japan around 2015 but ofcourse at that point, no one will care about the Wii or PS3. I doubt we'll care about either in 2012 for that matter.

Last edited by Lou on 07-Dec-2010 at 07:56 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 07-Dec-2010 at 07:17 PM.

Game 360 PS3
Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2 7.481 4.8
Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 4.226 1.455
Grand Theft Auto IV 4.362 2.73
Resident Evil 5* 1.423 1.62

*RE5 PS3 sales includes the "Gold" edition

Other cross-platform titles were not listed but some things are obvious.
If Sony didn't have exclusives, it would be DEAD.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @BrianK Quote: IMO MikeB misses the big picture this generation. Nintendo is back on top at #1 again, they get the market. Microsoft is fighting a slightly different battle. Both Microsoft and Nintendo have been number 1 with regard to gaming in the past, every "gen" there are new oppertunities.

When was MS #1? I guess you must be talking about 2005 when it launched with no competition.
Was the Dreamcast also #1 then?

Quote:

I think you fail to see the big picture here. Sony was aiming for the long run, they did not want a PS2.5 even if it sold twice as fast at this point. They want to advance the market, for this they developed the Cell processor, added a high capacity Blu-Ray drive by default and decided on high specs like including a default harddrive and other onboard features which the other consoles lack out of the box. There are multiple long run reasons for this. For 1 winning the Blu-Ray vs HDDVD war, due to mainly the PS3 that war was already over before it really began. Also Sony like to sell high quality HDTVs and audio systems, the PS3 is a great way to get easy access to content to show off the capabilities. Now Sony wants to push 3DTVs into the market and the PS3 helps a lot with regard to this. Why do you continue to ignore the big picture? This was stated by many years ago on here already.

Why do we care about Sony's big picture in a gaming thread?
The big picture is Sony needs these other markets considering the failure of their gaming segment this generation.
The 360 is no less capable of 3D display tech. Sony TV's are not a requirement here.

The latest drivers I downloaded to my PC from Nvidia adds 3D support to my PC. I'll still need their(NVIDIA) special glasses which I can't be bottered to buy.

Now if PC (read Microsoft operating system-based computers) can already do 3D, what is stopping the 360 from also doing so? It's all marketing speak from Sony which you love to repeat...which I get sick of hearing.

The PS3 does not have 3D display exclusivity despite what you want to tell us.
Sony wants to push 3DTV's to the market because of it's bottom line and that's all.

@Lou

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So your basis is old MS data vs. new Sony data? Here's all you need to know:

Maybe for the simple mind.

But if talking about potential market for 3rd party publishes it matters how much software a platform sells on a per year basis rather than in terms of distant past (for example having sold more in total due to a year headstart in the US and Japan and more so for the rest of the world with more holiday seasons).

In Sony's FY2009 the PS3 enjoyed 115.6 million software sales. For the same period Microsoft had 103.1 million software sales.

http://www.psuni.com/ps3-software-sales-outstrip-xbox-360s-ps3-attach-rate-up-to-8-1-3807/

The reason why Microsoft doesn't tout its attach rate anymore is that combined with hardware sales software sales can be easily determined. Something Microsoft does not want you to know when they sell significantly less software with a larger installbase than their main competitor (not the Wii).

@Lou

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I doubt we'll care about either in 2012 for that matter.

Well I think you are at least half right (time to provide credit where due), not many people will care about the Wii anymore in 2012.

@Lou

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When was MS #1? I guess you must be talking about 2005 when it launched with no competition.

PC gaming was relatively huge during the Doom/Quake/Half-Life1 era.

Of course Microsoft sacrificed a lot of their Windows PC centric games to the advantage of XBox 360 exclusivity. That wasn't expected, but of growth for the 360 was to be expected taking this approach, but I don't think it's a good idea in general (especially considering RROD). At this point if the 360 were to be discontinued not only the PS3 market will benefit the PC gaming market as well.

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The 360 is no less capable of 3D display tech.

It is and significantly so, the 360 can actually spark a bad rep for stereoscopic 3D gaming (like with Call of Duty), the PS3 can much better spark enthusiasm for 3DTVs technically (Super Stardust HD, Gran Turismo 5, Motorstorm: Apocalypse, Killzone 3, etc).

@Lou

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Why do we care about Sony's big picture in a gaming thread?

I am an Amigan, the answer for me lies here:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=32263&forum=4&start=360&viewmode=flat&order=0#590323

If someone decides to rerelease a Snes under a different brandname and due to hype it sells more than Wii, PS3 and XBox 360 combined, I still won't be enthusiastic about the console. I want the market to jump forward in giant leaps, not go back, nomatter if they are able to sell such a console for 5 bucks or free with a package of washing powder.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: So your basis is old MS data vs. new Sony data? Here's all you need to know: Maybe for the simple mind. But if talking about potential market for 3rd party publishes it matters how much software a platform sells on a per year basis rather than in terms of distant past (for example having sold more in total due to a year headstart in the US and Japan and more so for the rest of the world with more holiday seasons). In Sony's FY2009 the PS3 enjoyed 115.6 million software sales. For the same period Microsoft had 103.1 million software sales. http://www.psuni.com/ps3-software-sales-outstrip-xbox-360s-ps3-attach-rate-up-to-8-1-3807/ The reason why Microsoft doesn't tout its attach rate anymore is that combined with hardware sales software sales can be easily determined. Something Microsoft does not want you to know when they sell significantly less software with a larger installbase than their main competitor (not the Wii).

So now you are saying the 360 does have a larger installed base?

The 360's online sales are larger than the PS3's.
The 360 has sold more software period (either/or and both boxed and downloaded) for relatively the same installed base. When you look at cross-platform titles, the difference is disgusting. Sony exclusives are the only thing that has kept things close. It also did purchase some studios to ensure that...so those figures should be added to the bottom line.

If the PS3 is getting more niche titles that don't quite break 1M in sales then eventually those developers will realize greener pastures like the big boys at Square Enix and CAPCOM did. Eventually money talks. If they can move 1.5M units on 360 vs 900K on PS3, they will eventually go cross platform or completely switch platforms.

Last edited by Lou on 07-Dec-2010 at 09:13 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: Why do we care about Sony's big picture in a gaming thread? I am an Amigan, the answer for me lies here: http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=32263&forum=4&start=360&viewmode=flat&order=0#590323 If someone decides to rerelease a Snes under a different brandname and due to hype it sells more than Wii, PS3 and XBox 360 combined, I still won't be enthusiastic about the console. I want the market to jump forward in giant leaps, not go back, nomatter if they are able to sell such a console for 5 bucks or free with a package of washing powder.

No one's asking you to be enthusiastic about anything.

Actually, quite the opposite.

We are asking you to stop us from needing tall rubber boots and shovels when reading and posting in these threads.

We watch TV. We see the comercials. We don't need to see them in this thread...unless Sony is a secret platinum member of AW.net and we just don't know it yet.

@Lou

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So now you are saying the 360 does have a larger installed base?

Have you ever actually read these threads you have been participating in for all these years? It's no secret the XBox 360 had a headstart.

Just a few posts above you can read the 360 had a 2.9 million install base advantage based on sales reports. This figure has been declining a lot and I have been reporting on this for years now...

However based on the software sales it wouldn't suprise me the PS3 actually has an advantage due to 360 hardware failures and piracy.,

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The 360's online sales are larger than the PS3's.

I haven't said that, I haven't seen comparison data. The PSN does seem to get far more high quality exclusives, but this may be due to Sony's overall approach.

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When you look at cross-platform titles, the difference is disgusting. Sony exclusives are the only thing that has kept things close.

This is in fact wrong, many many PS3 versions of games performed absolutely or relatively better on the PS3 than on the 360 worldwide.

Last edited by MikeB on 07-Dec-2010 at 09:23 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Maybe for the simple mind.

Please rise your level of discourse where you can disagree with someone in a respective manner. No one is insulting you and I ask you not to insult others.

I may add your data showing software rates is from FY2009. There's been another 8 months of data in that timeframe. Sony predicted their software sales rates would be flat, around 115Million, even as their console sales increase. If Sony is matching expectations their market isn't getting bigger. Their attachment rates may well be decreasing. Overall from your data we don't 'know' what's going on right now.

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If it's a PSN game like Warhawk you can install it on all those 4 PS3s.

Hopefully you're abiding by the agreements with software. Often, not sure about Warhawk, buying 1 copy gives you the right to use 1 copy on 1 device at any time. Installing on multiple devices is legal. Though using all at once would be illegal, against the software agreement. I know you don't want to support piracy nor break the site rules by advocating piracy so I wanted to give you a chance to clarify this.

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There are multiple long run reasons for this. For 1 winning the Blu-Ray vs HDDVD war, due to mainly the PS3 that war was already over before it really began. Also Sony like to sell high quality HDTVs and audio systems, the PS3 is a great way to get easy access to content to show off the capabilities. Now Sony wants to push 3DTVs into the market and the PS3 helps a lot with regard to this

I'd agree that the 'Big Picture' for the PS3 is a lever to help Sony sell more Sony gear. Now as a gamer I could care less about this. As a person who doesn't own Sony stock this doesn't benefit me any. I'd argue this isn't the big picture either, this is the Sony picture.

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Both Microsoft and Nintendo have been number 1 with regard to gaming in the past, every "gen" there are new oppertunities

You're lumping together all gaming when we're talking consoles here. Microsoft has never been #1 in regards to consoles.

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especially considering RROD

Old hat Mike. A problem that happened 3+ years ago. Microsoft, rightly, extended warranties to cover an out of alignment with industry problem and has subsequently fixed it in other consoles. And the market is responding positively. 360 is leading 2010 console sales above the 2009 levels. Something the PS3 can't say in the US.

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Have you ever actually read these threads you have been participating in for all these years? It's no secret the XBox 360 had a headstart.

That's Sony's fault for not being ready for the next gen.

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I haven't said that, I haven't seen comparison data.

In the recent past you've made over reaching conclusions about microsoft's statements. You stated Microsoft used to talk attach rate and now doesn't and the reason is they're at a normal rate. This may be but we have no actual data from Microsoft that this is the actual reason. Let's mimic your actions, but for Sony... Sony isn't talking online sales rates because they are failing in the industry.

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The PSN does seem to get far more high quality exclusives

This is a personal preference item. I see it the other way.

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This is in fact wrong, many many PS3 versions of games performed absolutely or relatively better on the PS3 than on the 360 worldwide

There's been a handful of cross titles that sold more on the PS3, period.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: When you look at cross-platform titles, the difference is disgusting. Sony exclusives are the only thing that has kept things close. This is in fact wrong, many many PS3 versions of games performed absolutely or relatively better on the PS3 than on the 360 worldwide.

I cited the top ones. Below that it's peanuts. So you are wrong. I named 1 (RE5) and it took a re-release with extra functiuonality to do that and the difference was again mostly peanuts.

We know the Madden series also sells better on 360.

Where are your specific sales #s?

@BrianK

Quote:

Please rise your level of discourse where you can disagree with someone in a respective manner. No one is insulting you and I ask you not to insult others.

There you go again Brian...
Lou:"So basically what you say is a lie."

Why the hell do you do this again Brian? Pretending to ride a white horse, the knight of justice (but really behaving like a two faced snake).

I provided sources on multiple occasions. I meant if you don't think it through then maybe you may think like that.

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Sony predicted their software sales rates would be flat, around 115Million, even as their console sales increase.

As stated before Sony announced software sales for the previous quarter were up 40% compared to last year. Are you sure you aren't talking about a Microsoft comment or something? This quarter Gran Turismo 5 is released and Sony actually said therefore they expect the current trend to continue.

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Overall from your data we don't 'know' what's going on right now.

As stated Microsoft stopped reporting on their software sales, but Sony has not.

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Hopefully you're abiding by the agreements with software. Often, not sure about Warhawk, buying 1 copy gives you the right to use 1 copy on 1 device at any time.

I have all my PSN games including WipeOut HD, SuperStardust HD and Warhawk installed on multiple PS3s. This is perfectly legal and in compliance to Sony's terms.You need to have your account active on all these PS3s, so if you sell your console be sure to disable the account, so when you buy a new model you can re-download everything to a new console.

I believe you can have your account active on a maximum of 5 PS3s.

The only sucky thing for me is Singstar, downloaded songs are locked to one specific PS3...

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I'd agree that the 'Big Picture' for the PS3 is a lever to help Sony sell more Sony gear. Now as a gamer I could care less about this.

First part yes. Second part, IMO 3D gaming and movies are awesome and in no way are you tied to Sony products, there are plenty of alternatives. Currenty my 1080p HDTV and surround audio setup are made by Philips.

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You're lumping together all gaming when we're talking consoles here. Microsoft has never been #1 in regards to consoles.

IMO both console games and desktop games are both video games. The game engines are very similar. I only consider the handheld market quite seperate with regard to gaming, most often special gaming engines and gaming mechanics need to be implemented. Designing a PC/X360/PS3 game for all three platform with the same code and assets is entirely feasible (look at Crysis 2 for example, but having the same code/assets on a Nintendo DS is not).

There are plenty of systems which turned into consoles and vice versa, including of course the Amiga computer (which you are expected to know around here) or the original XBox wasn't much more than a low spec standardized gaming PC.

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Old hat Mike. A problem that happened 3+ years ago.

As you know the extended RROD repair period has ended and as sources say all older XBox 360 models will fail prematurely. So it may well be becoming more relevant in terms of software sales. Buying a replacement console must not per se mean the user will buy twice as much software than he did before. Understand?

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That's Sony's fault for not being ready for the next gen.

As ready as RROD and disc scatching 360s?

I don't like to think in gens anyway. I think companies should be free to release a console when they see fit. I don't like rushjobs for the sake of marketing. I like to think in specifications and the PS3 was really impressively specced for 2006/2007 and even for years to come.

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In the recent past you've made over reaching conclusions about microsoft's statements. You stated Microsoft used to talk attach rate and now doesn't and the reason is they're at a normal rate.

There was no such conclusion. I stated the PS3 software outsold 360 software last year despite a bigger installbase at the time for the 360. IMO this is surprising and I speculated on why this may be the case. That's not the same as coming to premature conclusions, I leave that to you and Lou.

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There's been a handful of cross titles that sold more on the PS3, period.

Really a lot relatively speaking (taking into account installbase differences) and quite a few absolutely.

Last edited by MikeB on 08-Dec-2010 at 05:01 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 08-Dec-2010 at 03:34 PM.

@Lou

Quote:

We know the Madden series also sells better on 360.

Madden is really a USA targeting game, outside of the US almost nobody seems to care.

It happens that the 360 has a big installbase advantage for the USA.

Launch sales for Madden 10:
XBox 360 928k
PS3 643k
PS2 425K

The only home console version which flopped was the Wii version with 67k (especially considering installbase).

At the end of 2009 the 360 had about an installbase of 18 million in the USA. The PS3 had an installbase of about 11 million.

So about 63% more 360s last year in the USA.
Madden sold about 44% more copies on the XBox 360 than on the PS3.

Understand? I don't understand why this is so hard for you?

@MikeB

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Lou:"So basically what you say is a lie." MikeB:"Maybe for the simple mind. "

MikeB, seriously, have you not learned that two wrongs do not make a right? If you feel insulted stop and ask the person why they are being rude. Try to keep things civil.

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Pretending to ride a white horse, the knight of justice (but really behaving like a two faced snake).

I identify two different 'insults' here. Lou's statement statement was noting that your statement was incorrect. A lie is an inaccurate or false statement. Now while you both may agree or disagree on the value of truth in your statements denoting disagreement in that value isn't an attack on your person. The your insult of 'simple mind' is a comment on Lou's physical characteristic of intelligence. Statements or writings don't have a mind only people do. Basically it's the same as calling him stupid, it's an attack on his personage.

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As stated before Sony announced software sales for the previous quarter were up 40% compared to last year. Are you sure you aren't talking about a Microsoft comment or something?

Nope it was Sony. I'll have to find the statement and check the year. I thought it was 2010.

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As stated Microsoft stopped reporting on their software sales, but Sony has not.

Which goes to my statement that we don't actually know what's going on here. We're trying to compare the two and you appear to agree we're missing data to do that comparison with.

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Second part, IMO 3D gaming and movies are awesome and in no way are you tied to Sony products, there are plenty of alternative.

Blu-Ray is clearly, clearly tied to Sony products. Sony receives licensing fees for each Blu-Ray sold. In addition, Sony owns a number of movie studios. 3D 'gaming' ties in here because it'll push TVs and in turn push 3D movies, again which Sony benefits from. Sorry, Sony isn't the benevolent company which your statements appear to lean towards.

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As you know the extended RROD repair period has ended

No I don't know that. RROD is for 3 years. If you return your console you get 3 more years. The RROD 'period' hasn't ended. Microsoft continues to have the RROD Warranty in place. When I check my console online it indicates there are 2 years left. Did Microsoft forget to update all their customer data in this regard? Of course not because the RROD Warranty is still in place.

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I don't like to think in gens anyway.

Yeah we realize that. That way it's easy to declare PS3 as a victor even though the Wii is kicking it's butt. Though interesting that Sony does think by generations and declares the PS3 will win out in the end.

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Really a lot relatively speaking (taking into account installbase differences) and quite a few absolutely

Ahh yes the PS3 is selling less but better because there's less PS3s on the street. Lou and I and the numbers are clear. PS3 trails most cross title sales. There are a few where it wins out, very few. Understand?

If you were a developer selling less, even with greater penetration, it is no comfort to paying for your employees or business operation. ..."I'm getting concerned about Sony; the PlayStation 3 is losing a bit of momentum and they don't make it easy for me to support the platform," Kotick told the UK Times Online (in 2009), adding that the return on investment is "better" on the Wii and Xbox 360"....