@Lou

FYI, I am not going to discuss technicals with you, I tried that in the past. IMO just try some PS3 exclusives sometime to understand what the Cell means for the PS3.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou FYI, I am not going to discuss technicals with you, I tried that in the past. IMO just try some PS3 exclusives sometime to understand what the Cell means for the PS3.

I know what it means, but the 'cpu' technology has evolved because individual full-cpu cores with full access to memory can be put in a package rather than limiting oneself to 32K/core and many stripped-down cores. This is why other than PS3, 'Cell' as we know it is dead.

What worked for the PS3 in 2006 will not work going forward. 360's cpu is SMP with SIMD extensions in all the cores. Having more cores can be better but in some cases where the 360's cpu falls behind, the gpu makes up for it because 360's gpu doesn't need assistance from SPE's. This is what you fail to realize and why the maker says the systems are equal in OVERALL processing power. Again you try to win a battle when the core developer says it's a draw in the big picture.

There is no need to argue the merits, the actual developer has already explained it in black and white.


At a local state univeristy, in a class in CPU design, the GAMECUBE processor is studied because it was the 1st PPC with advanced cache management. The 360's cache management was an evolution of that. I believe Cell's is different.

Last edited by Lou on 14-Dec-2010 at 04:12 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 14-Dec-2010 at 04:09 PM.

For anyone doing any Wii shopping for friends, here are the 20 most played Wii games:

Quote:

This is the top 20 listed for you, with average cumulative play times, since the launch of each of those games, also as of December 12. 1. Monster Hunter Tri - 87:33 2. Super Smash Bros. Brawl - 79:09 3. Animal Crossing: City Folk - 76:09 4. Harvest Moon: Animal Parade - 66:51 5. Call of Duty: Modern Warfare: Reflex Edition - 62:11 6. Guitar Hero III: Legends of Rock - 56:44 7. Harvest Moon: Tree of Tranquility - 53:50 8. Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn - 52:49 9. WWE Smackdown Vs. Raw 2010 - 52:20 (up from the 10th spot) 10. Rune Factory: Frontier - 51:29 (up from the 11th spot) 11. Call of Duty: World at War - 51:26 (down from the 9th spot) 12. Lego Star Wars: The Complete Saga - 51:11 13. Rock Band 2 - 49:37 14. The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess - 47:54 15. Mario Kart Wii - 41:57 16. Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World - 41:21 17. Wii Sports - 40:26 18. Pro Evolution 2010 - 40:18 19. FIFA Soccer 09 All-Play - 39:55 20. New Super Mario Bros Wii — 38:34 (new entry)

Not hardcore enough for ya?

@MikeB

Quote:

@BrianK Quote: Mainstream computing went the way of the Xenon design not the Cell design. I think you mean to say Microsoft opted for a more traditional design for the Xenon, more similar to previous PC multi-core variants.

Nope that's not what I mean to say. Dual cores were barely on the market when the tri-core Xenon hit. (Dual Core Opteron came out in Oct 2005, for example. The gaming dual core came with the first Athlon FX dual core in early 2006.) In 2005 multicore was definitely not traditional but leading edge. Since 2005 mainstream has settled on multi-core instead of using the Cell model of computing.

The Cell was a special purpose heterogeneous computing chip. It appears the mainstream is heading that way to include CPUs and GPUs for Systems On a Chip (SoC). I'd say these are in the same family as the Cell as they share some properties. Though the first one of these for the main market was the XCGPU where the Xenon and Xenos were combined into a single die for the 360 S. These are now combining 2 seperate processors effectively into a single one. (Again Cell-like in the overall aspect but they aren't Cell derived in any proper sense.)

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @MikeB Quote: @BrianK I think you mean to say Microsoft opted for a more traditional design for the Xenon, more similar to previous PC multi-core variants. Nope that's not what I mean to say. Dual cores were barely on the market when the tri-core Xenon hit. (Dual Core Opteron came out in Oct 2005, for example. The gaming dual core came with the first Athlon FX dual core in early 2006.) In 2005 multicore was definitely not traditional but leading edge. Since 2005 mainstream has settled on multi-core instead of using the Cell model of computing. The Cell was a special purpose heterogeneous computing chip. It appears the mainstream is heading that way to include CPUs and GPUs for Systems On a Chip (SoC). I'd say these are in the same family as the Cell as they share some properties. Though the first one of these for the main market was the XCGPU where the Xenon and Xenos were combined into a single die for the 360 S. These are now combining 2 seperate processors effectively into a single one. (Again Cell-like in the overall aspect but they aren't Cell derived in any proper sense.)

This is nothing different than adding the FPU to the same packaging where as back in the 386 days and even 68000, FPU's were on a separate chip.

In the end, programmers complain about the fact that the SPE's only have 32k to work with. Yes, they can run processes but 32k can fill up pretty fast when you are programming.

Last edited by Lou on 14-Dec-2010 at 08:19 PM.

@Lou

Quote:

This is nothing different than adding the FPU to the same packaging where as back in the 386 days and even 68000, FPU's were on a separate chip. In the end, programmers complain about the fact that the SPE's only have 32k to work with. Yes, they can run processes but 32k can fill up pretty fast when you are programming.

I'd agree. An SPE is little more than a special purpose DSP. Hey but they are 'Synergy Processing Elements'. I guess because someone at IBM was required to use the latest business speak.

@BrianK

Quote:

I'd agree. An SPE is little more than a special purpose DSP.

So after all these years you learned... virtually nothing...

Also no competence to correct Lou's misinformation. Thus I have come to the conclusion it's worthless to talk with you on technical matters as well. Just stating so, so that you know I won't reply to you on these things in the future.

@MikeB

Quote:

@BrianK Quote: I'd agree. An SPE is little more than a special purpose DSP. So after all these years you learned... virtually nothing... Also no competence to correct Lou's misinformation. Thus I have come to the conclusion it's worthless to talk with you on technical matters as well. Just stating so, so that you know I won't reply to you on these things in the future.

Alas MikeB after all these years you've learned nothing.

The SPE doesn't rename registers or reorder instructions. The SPE doesn't control anything. The SPE doesn't do branch processing. It's not a general purpose computer. The core componets are vector ALUs, like a DSP, not fixed ALUs like a main processor. It's essentially a small vector computer. We've seen vector computing before, in DSPs. Adding this type of heterogenous processing is what makes the Cell a 'supercomputer on a chip. Now scalar code can be handled too though it's when one vectorizes the processing that the true power of the SPE shines.

Oh and if you want the horse's mouth how about IBM who says ... "The collection of processors in a Cell Broadband Engine™ (Cell/B.E.) processor displays a DSP-like architecture."

Though I agree on your decision to not talk about this stuff. It's best you not talk on technical matters until you build a deeper understanding of not only the Cell but other types of computing processing. Leave the computing to us that work in computers daily and stick to your weights.

Last edited by BrianK on 15-Dec-2010 at 12:06 PM.

@BrianK

No more baiting please...

The SPEs/SPUs are DSP-like in the sense that they are remarkably efficient for super fast processing of audio/video data in real time. However you make something very positive sound negative (while spreading misinformation).

Nicholas Blanchford: "The SPEs have a reputation of being weird DSP type things which can only handle vector code. This is not true as they are also quite capable of handling scalar (read: normal) code. It’s better to use vector code however because processing 4 (or more) pieces of data at a time is obviously going to be faster."

First try to understand the basics:

Bottom line: SPUs are like most CPUs"
\
"Rule 1: The SPU is not a co-processor!"

"The ultimate goal: Get everything on the SPUs."

"Complex systems can go on the SPUs- Not just streaming systems -
Used for any kind of task"

http://www.insomniacgames.com/tech/articles/0208/files/insomniac_spu_programming_gdc08.ppt

The SPUs are good for DSP/co-processor/various GPU tasks/stream processor tasks, etc. But the SPUs are also good at executing well designed general purpose code.

@MikeB

Quote:

First try to understand the basics: Bottom line: SPUs are like most CPUs"

Again they are not most like CPUs. They are more like upgraded DSPs. They lack some signifcant functionality of CPUs. I covered these already but will post them again. Renaming registers, can't be done. Reording instructions, can't be done. Branch processing, can't be done. Fixed ALU, doesn't exist it's a vector ALU. If I recall correctly they also can't control items. The CPU (PPE) can write to main and local memory. The SPE can't, it can only do that through use of the PPE. Data must be fetched doing this to main memory stalls the SPE's processing. One might be able to run an OS on an SPE. Though that's a #### poor choice. As missing hardware items of a CPU then have to be compensated for in software code.

Quote:

But the SPUs are also good at executing well designed general purpose code.

Yes they are. If the developer takes the time to ensure that general purpose code is inorder, doesn't branch, and register renaming is minimized or eliminated. Essentially handling in software or by hand the options that a CPU handles in hardware. Which is in short what your included quote stated.

Quote:

No more baiting please

When you present yourself as a high and mighty judge of others and consider us 'unworthy' of your discussion expect people to not accept your holier than though attitude. If you don't want to discuss this it's your right to do so. So stop posting technical items. I'll stick with IBM, who made the darn processor afterall, and their statement of the DSP-like processing of the SPE.

Last edited by BrianK on 15-Dec-2010 at 03:01 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 15-Dec-2010 at 03:00 PM.

Canandian Telus appears to be offering a Free Xbox 360 with each Windows Phone 7 purchase or renewal, starting today and runs through Christmas.

This might offset some of those get a free PS3 with your Sony TV purchase. I wonder how one might remove the free PS3 to see who actually paid for their console this season.

@BrianK

Quote:

Again they are not most like CPUs.

FYI it was an exact quote from the linked article. I am not going to discuss this any further with you, please email Insomniac instead.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @BrianK Quote: Again they are not most like CPUs. FYI it was an exact quote from the linked article. I am not going to discuss this any further with you, please email Insomniac instead.

It goes something like this:

Car designer/engineer: this car is great on the 1/4 mile race but don't hit the slalom or you'll go off road.

Salesman: this car is super fast, just slow down for the curves

MikeB: this car is L33T and can do anything!

@Lou

Quote:

It goes something like this: Car designer/engineer: this car is great on the 1/4 mile race but don't hit the slalom or you'll go off road. Salesman: this car is super fast, just slow down for the curves MikeB: this car is L33T and can do anything!

+1 for truism.

@Lou

Quote:

MikeB: this car is L33T and can do anything!

Why not post some proof? If you can't you're just trolling (with BrianK's support).

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: MikeB: this car is L33T and can do anything! Why not post some proof? If you can't you're just trolling (with BrianK's support).

You caught me MikeB, we never had a conversation about cars.

@Lou

Quote:

You caught me MikeB, we never had a conversation about cars

@MikeB

Quote:

FYI it was an exact quote from the linked article. I am not going to discuss this any further with you, please email Insomniac instead.

Maybe you can request Insomniac take it up with the developers of the hardware, IBM?

Afterall there's probably a reason why the Xenon is a homogenous processor and the Cell is a heterogenous processor. I can tell you why but I suspect you'll disagree.

Last edited by BrianK on 15-Dec-2010 at 08:16 PM.

@BrianK/Lou

Enough trollism already.

It seems Bioware did a proper port of Mass Effect 2 (if you haven't played the original, IMO don't, it's pretty bugged). Microsoft paid Bioware to not release the game for the PS3. But Bioware seems to have worked around the issue nicely.

A comparison video:
http://uk.ign.com/videos/2010/12/15/mass-effect-2-ps3-preview?show=HD

This IMO looks very well done:

Sharpshooter for the Playstation Move demoed with Killzone 3
http://playfront.de/killzone-3-sharp-shooter-interview-mit-spielszenen/