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      /  Workbench 5 = AROS?
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Skandall 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 25-Jan-2011 21:34:03
#181 ]
Member
Joined: 17-May-2006
Posts: 22
From: Unknown

@BigBentheAussie

You're speaking to a community that has been at best disappointed and at worst outright swindled. Any so called future Amiga will never match up to the passion we all have for the original.

I'll just give my F.A.Q. (AKA, opinion) on what a future Amiga needs to be:

Q: Can we skin an existing OS and call it Workbench 5?
A: Certainly not and only because I already have that. I'm using a Workbench skinned Ubuntu VM on Win7 right now. Don't give me something I can already get for free. That would be insulting. Also, I'm not interested in AROS, MorphOS, or any other attempt at updating the old AmigaOS. Linux is a much more modern OS with a lot more development support. I don't see the point in trying to bring old technology up to date when it should be far easier to bring the look and feel of Workbench to an OS that already has the features Workbench doesn't. Plus, your target market is going to totally ignore your product if you try to use an OS that they've either never even heard of or think has been dead for over a decade.

Q: Is Workbench 5 a good name for the OS that ships with our new Amiga?
A: No it is not. It implies a lineage that it doesn't possess. Even if you're clear there is still the potential that some may just assume that the OS is something it's not. I wouldn't risk it. Workbench X is even worse though, due to the already mentioned similarities to MacOSX.

Q: Okay, so what would you suggest?
A: Workbench V. That would eliminate the direct numerical link to previous versions of Workbench but the V still represents 5 and is thus the "spiritual" successor. Even better if you shorten the left side of the V slightly to pay homage to the Amiga Check mark. Also, V is associated with the hand symbol for victory and getting a decent new "Amiga" would be a victory. Now that's a name I think could work well.

Q: So, is it a bad thing to use a custom Linux distribution?
A: Only if you don't put the emphasis on custom. Workbench was a revolution for its time. I'm sure I don't need to go into details, we all know why it was awesome, but what made it awesome then is just bare minimum specs now (save for the fact it did it in far less memory).

Q: How custom are we talking?
A: It needs to be user centric; the user is boss and the OS does what it's told when it's told. More importantly is looking to the future of use cases. Amiga is about innovation and the power to do things people don't even know they need. It needs to be an OS that is aware of users need for the internet, RSS, phones, social media, and so on. It needs to provide interfaces to these things that are user friendly and customizable (image if Workbench datatypes included RSS or Facebook) That's the kind of custom I'm talking.

Q: So something totally new then?
A: No, you can't do that either. Linux is a good starting point but there are some changes that need to be made to make it function a little more Amiga-like. Take desktops for example. Linux can have multiple, well so too could the Amiga, but it was different on Amiga. Applications could open on their own screen or they could open on the Workbench. Linux could function this way too if the desktops were customized. Getting Linux to look like Workbench 3.1 would be the starting point, not the goal. From there you need to add functionality that takes into consideration how people interact with not only their computers, but also their phone, TV, Blueray player, etc. Imagine Workbench V running on your hardware and on an Android phone with seamless integration of data and content between them. That sounds properly Amiga-like to me.

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vox 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 0:44:52
#182 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3731
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@Skandall

1. Why aren't you doing AROS?

Because we don`t want to pay for the drivers. We need AROS to make itself
for own boards. We originally planed to use AROS, but when it turned out
we need to pay something, we quickly turned to customizing Ubuntu we anyway planned to ship with machines.

2. Why aren't you implementing PowerPC technology?

We don`t have sufficient knowledge, interest and PowerPC market is too small
for our big ideas and ego.

3. Why don't you re-implement the classic Amiga chipset?

Because we are not real Commodore. You are mistaken by our great PR.

4. Why don't you have a boot option to run the classic Amiga operating system via emulation?

Because we will not buy a real emulation package. We haven`t yet decided our licenced UAE or AmigaForever to be built in the OS, but we know our CommodoreOS will be 100% Amiga and Commodore compatabile, even that sentence doesn`t mean anything (we hope to provide good emulation using the same emulators as you do)

5. Will you repair my Commodore computers from the 80s and 90s?

There are Amikit and similar servicesalready.

6. Will the new Commodore 64 be on sale in Europe?

We are Americans, but we are aware that Amiga was most successful in Europe.

7. Why don't you reproduce the C64c Slimline variant of the Commodore 64?

Because we were not able to reproduce A1200 slim line.

8. Will there be localized keyboards available for the Commodore 64?

In forms of stickers yes.

9. Can I buy the cases separately and put in whatever motherboard I want?

Well they will not look too Amiga, apart from the sticker, but yes.
Its anyway most creative work we have done so far!

10. What is Workbench 5?

Actually its nothing. Its just us playing Gods with our lovely Ubuntu 10+ that has finally grown to be fully useful desktop OS. Now, we wish to try to make some Commodore and Amiga nostalgia without using real AmigaOS, kickstart or paying any royalties to anyone who has ever done anything before us!

Hell, we will not even inform people that there is real AmigaOS!

Why? Because we are Commodore in agreement with Amiga Inc (even both companies died realisticaly we have resurrected the industrial use of names)

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opi 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 1:20:12
#183 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@vox

You make zero sense.

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linnar 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 5:27:47
#184 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@vox

You are not serious now!
It seems to me that you are jealous or something like that.

I think the Commodore can do what they want and call their OS to Workbench 5 if they want. I think it is even desirable that it is called Workbench 5

It gives a signal that there is a new start at a higher level than before.

Commodore's drive is the strongest commitment to the Amiga made after 1994. At last, maybe something happens.

But no one here needs to be worried about it, the new Amiga will have their own Amiga forums are filled with joy and ambition.

It is also good on the older forums will remain. It can be an interesting and rewarding Discussion between them.

There is room for everyone!

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vox 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 6:12:55
#185 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3731
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@linnar

FAQ is not serious. It doesn`t make sense (as sense in Jubacca defenese)

No respect for those who discrispect, including this "new" and "forums".

Go to your new WB forums, they are thrilling with life!
http://www.commodore-amiga.org/

I m not "jealous" on what? (no innovation at all, another retro recycle
like new Rambo or Rocky) but simply this company cannot make itself look serious: each announcement and step towards final product is step different then originally promised. And usually, step back.



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vox 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 6:59:13
#186 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2005
Posts: 3731
From: Belgrade, Serbia

@linnar

Also, here you can see new style of deleting comments
and mostly ignoring users idea and comments with your own
"innovative case and Linux" fixation.
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Commodore-USA/181491231869072?v=app_2373072738

If thats new styla, lets be old school. Otherwise this thread would not exist,
and all CUSA boys comments would be deleted.

There is room for everyone? Where? In the Universe yes. In Amiga market, not at all. That`s capitalism. This is not only blowing X1000 promotion or somehow hearting AmigaOS4, it`s biggest scam in Amiga market so far since I know of it, selling something for something completely else, knowingly making it look like old.

There is not a shred of innovation or improvement there so far, plus it sponspors
existance of AmigaInc. And doesn`t benefit even AROS or Amiga forever.

From the comments of most of people on CUSA site and forums people still expect some kind of AmigaOS or AOS resemblance e.g. from forums

Its also interesting to note that in all forums and interpretations, CUSA mentiones just like Amiga Classics died in 1994 and nothing happened afterwards, until they have purchased the licence. If mentioned ever AmigaOS 4 its negative comments like "X86_Amigist An for the rest of the PPC "community"... After they realise that the mystery CPU is nothing more than a mysty piece of fogg and that the half working mainboard is too xpencive and too slow compared to a C= A1000/2000 hardware...they will come...slowly but definitely. C= Amiga.... the only Amiga after the old C= died!"

So you are trying to build future on negating the past and the present. Babylon dat!



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djrikki 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 8:55:57
#187 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2010
Posts: 2077
From: Grimsby, UK

@opi

I understand every word. Vox ftw.

@linnar

"You are not serious now!
It seems to me that you are jealous or something like that."

Sorry we aren't privy to insider information like you - so what really Commodore USA have millions to spend???!?

"Commodore's drive is the strongest commitment to the Amiga made after 1994."

LOL strongest commitment apparently equals 'they have their own forums'.

Ps. Its Commodore USA, not singular.

Last edited by djrikki on 26-Jan-2011 at 08:58 AM.
Last edited by djrikki on 26-Jan-2011 at 08:57 AM.

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Daedalus 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 9:05:28
#188 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@linnar

Quote:

linnar wrote:

It gives a signal that there is a new start at a higher level than before.


Well, that's just it there. It doesn't give the impression of a new start, it gives the impression it's a continuation of the existing "Workbench" line - Workbench 5 as a successor to Workbench 4 and so on. That's how numbers work, and I'm sure that's part of the intention in naming it with a 5, to make it sound like a continuation of that line.

In reality it can be seen one of two ways: Either it's a continuation / fork of the Linux line, or it's a brand new start. Either of these are fine, perfectly legitimate causes. But what it certainly isn't is a continuation of the AmigaOS or "Workbench" systems.

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djrikki 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 9:36:11
#189 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2010
Posts: 2077
From: Grimsby, UK

@Daedalus

Exactly. C=USA is misleading the customer big time, and if C=USA go ahead as proposed and actually ship something (an even bigger question mark) Hyperion will be coming down on them like a ton of bricks.

Last edited by djrikki on 26-Jan-2011 at 09:37 AM.

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Trixie 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 9:36:33
#190 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 2089
From: Czech Republic

@opi

Quote:
a thing he never said

Good catch! A widely popular myth it has become, then.

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opi 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 9:49:29
#191 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@Daedalus

Quote:
"Workbench" systems


See, this is a problem with name-followers. You guys have to fight constant fight to keep your name sacred even if it leads to strange situations like "AmigaOne" is "Amiga" because it runs "AmigaOS" and CUSA, who claims that they secured Amiga name, can be named Amiga is not Amiga because "insert No True Scotsman logical fallacy".

Is CUSA shady company? Sure. Can they use Workbench name? Sure. Can they use Commodore and Amiga brands? They at least claim that and AI seems to confirm it.

So, it's like that: Amiga name is worthless. It may be worth something if you'd like to resell some old games. You sucked to it because "it is the real thing" and gave stinky eye to every other platform that has its roots in Commodore Amiga. Now, some smart businessman grabbed two brands to sell some PC with Linux and maybe an emulator or two. Sure, I hate getting Commodore name dragged by that, but hey, they died. So did Amiga. It's just a business. My major problems with CUSA is not "Commodore Amiga 64" or whatever crappy PC they are going to sell, it's their CEO BS and copy-pasta.

Now you have to sit here, moan and foam from your mouths because you feel being tricked. You where the chosen ones, the True Amigans and now it's being taken away from you by guy who wants to score some quick buck. And he will.

That's the cures of name-follower. You have to constantly move goalposts to be in your comfort zone.

Or you could let it go and enjoy whatever you use, even if it's HyperionOS. Using OS just because of name it carries is really, really stupid.

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Daedalus 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 10:08:57
#192 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@opi

I'm not sure if you meant to include me in the "name-follower" category there, but I'm not. I couldn't give a damn about the actual name - HyperionOS is good enough for me. I also have an AROS install at home, and once there's a release of MorphOS that will run on my Mac I'll try it out too.

What I dislike here is the dishonesty shown by CUSA in trying to sell their product as something it's not, i.e. the progression of the Amiga line. Do you think the MorphOS guys would be happy if I released "Wanderer 3.0" for x86, which was basically Ubuntu with an MUI-looking skin, and otherwise totally 100% incompatible? I don't think they would, and I would also thing that was a deceptive marketing ploy, even though at the moment I have no involvement or stake in MorphOS. I also don't like that it's being heralded as an incredible new thing when it's not. That's not an Amiga-specific feeling, that's a dislike of that type of behaviour in general.

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opi 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 10:35:42
#193 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@Daedalus

Quote:
the progression of the Amiga line


Firstly, if they really have Amiga name they can claim that. Even if you think it's "not a real progress because there's no AmigaOS" it's Amiga, Inc saying what Amiga is. Hyperion can govern AmigaOS. If Amiga, Inc says "Amiga is a thing in a fake C64 case" then it's Amiga. Done. Remember AmigaDE? That was Amiga, too.

Also, I think you all overestimate ability of CUSA to deliver anything that's not going to be laughed at launch. I'm pretty sure they will sell some (much more than OS4 enabled machines sold in last 9 years) and die because of lack of technical expertise.

Quote:
MorphOS guys would be happy if I released "Wanderer 3.0" for x86, which was basically Ubuntu with an MUI-looking skin, and otherwise totally 100% incompatible?


Is Wanderer trademarked? How similar the MUI-skin will be? Will it break copyright on usage of graphical elements (backgrounds, etc). We haven't even seen one screenshot of "Workbench 5". We don't know how similar it will be and what functionality it will include.

Summary: CUSA CEO acts like a douche. I don't believe they can build sustainable business with such CEO. They have the name, they set the rules, game over. I don't really think CUSA customers and Hyperion customers are the same people. I think you people (I'm talking about AW, not you) over react because your holy name is being taken from you. Didn't your grandma said "if you pick it, it won't heal"? I think CUSA will collapse on its own and you going over and over it just fuel your own anger about things you can't really change.

Last edited by opi on 26-Jan-2011 at 10:36 AM.

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paolone 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 10:54:11
#194 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 1143
From: Unknown

@Daedalus

Quote:
What I dislike here is the dishonesty shown by CUSA in trying to sell their product as something it's not, i.e. the progression of the Amiga line.


What dishonesty, sir? The Amiga line (the original, one and only "Amiga" line) died in 1994 with the demise of Commodore. Stop. I really can't understand how people here can pretend a few hundreds PPC machines sold in more than 15 years could be considered "the progression of the Amiga line" when even their names (AmigaOne, SAM) are different, and the only heritage of the platform is AmigaOS (there's NOTHING in common between the PPC motherboards and the original M68K-based design by Commodore).

There are chances any Amiga-branded PC with Linux, being it from Commodore USA or anyone else, would outperform selling of all those PPC machines in a few weeks, if correctly marketed. So the problem won't be that someone "stole" the name we are all fond of, but that our rants will be reduced to what they really are: un-influential, pointless little complaints from a little, microscopic community over the IT world.

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Daedalus 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 10:58:51
#195 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@opi

Yep, it's a shame that they have the name and are using it for a line of unrelated products, but like you say, they're entitled to do that. When I said the Amiga line I meant in a broad sense of API compatibility, the way Kickstart 2 was a progression of Kickstart 1, MorphOS 2 is a progression of MorphOS 1, and OS 4 and MorphOS are both a progression of OS 3.1. Workbench 5 is not a progression of Workbench 4 or AmigaOS4 or anything even remotely related, and I think to sell it as such is very misleading.

If I wanted, I could release a new Linux kernel which breaks all compatibility with the current kernel and can't run any existing Linux software, but has good compatibility with, say, Mac OS X. All copyright issues aside, I know that would fall flat on its face, and rightly it should too. However I think that CUSA will probably have more uptake on their Workbench 5 than my super new kernel would, and that will mainly be down to the world at large generally being oblivious to the tiny Amiga world. I can't ever see them getting too far for the same reasons you said, but they can probably make a fair splash all the same...

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Anonymous 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 11:06:45
# ]

0
0

@Daedalus

I don't hold high hopes for Workbench 5, but I don't see dishonesty or misleading customers. The classic Amiga was a very long time ago and I don't think anyone realistically expects to just insert an Amiga disk and have it work.

It's not as if they could do that on OS 4, MorphOS or AROS (68k version sort of excepted) anyway. I doubt many are expecting, or even want to, run Cinema 4D off an Amiga CD. And then there's the C64 model. I hope they're not expecting to run Scala off a cassette tape!

Chris

 
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Daedalus 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 11:10:40
#197 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@paolone

If you had read my post you would see that it's not about the name per se for me, I'd still be using OS4 if it were called HyperionOS. I'm also quite aware of the history of the Amiga line and the PPC ventures, and that there is nothing in common with the PPC motherboards and the old Amiga motherboards. Again, that's not what I meant, and if you took the time to understand my post you'd realise that. I never mentioned theft, or motherboards, or whatever. I know the current PPC motherboards weren't designed in the same way or by the same people as the old Amigas, but I can take a program I wrote 15 years ago, put it on my AmigaOne and it runs. No need to fire up emulators, I can still edit the source code and have it work on the same APIs, albeit newer versions.

The dishonesty lies in promoting Workbench 5 as a follow-on. I can take my example little application and run it on OS2, 3, 4, MorphOS, and it would probably compile just fine for AROS too. I can't do that on Workbench 5 any more than I can on my Windows box, or my Linux box, or my Mac. But of course you're right, CUSA are perfectly within their rights to do that despite the still existing community because it's too small to really influence their sales in the grand scheme of things.

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Daedalus 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 11:15:06
#198 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Glasgow - UK, Irish born

@clebin

Yes, you're right of course, current Amiga users aren't their target market, and their target market won't want to run Amiga software on it. So for most people they won't be at all aware, and that's the idea I guess.

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trans 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 12:01:00
#199 ]
Member
Joined: 19-Mar-2006
Posts: 81
From: Unknown

@BigBentheAussie

How did the AROS deal fail? Could you explain in more detail?

It's too bad C= and Hyperon could not work together. I can see a market for retro computers. In fact, I think you be better off as a business if you focused squarely on this and left new designs for some possible future. I get mixed messages from seeing both. To wit, why are the A1000-3000 not retro like C64x?

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cha05e90 
Re: Workbench 5 = AROS?
Posted on 26-Jan-2011 12:08:14
#200 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1275
From: Germany

@clebin
Quote:
I don't hold high hopes for Workbench 5, but I don't see dishonesty or misleading customers. The classic Amiga was a very long time ago and I don't think anyone realistically expects to just insert an Amiga disk and have it work.


Nevertheless it would be fun to watch someone logging in at "Commodore-Amiga.org", switching to the "Amiga 2000" forum and asking questions about his startup-sequence on the Workbench 2.1 floppy disk of his Commodore Amiga 2000 or how to make a emergency boot floppy from his 3.9 CD-ROM...

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