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      /  Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 20:32:11
#101 ]
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Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1252
From: CRO

@Fransexy

You cannot compare Apple's situation in 1997 with Amiga's situation today. Apple was still a huge company back then with a lot of customers and a big fan base. Also, they broadened the appeal of the Apple with iMacs, haven't really gone more elite.

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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 21:13:44
#102 ]
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Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 2938
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@wawa

Quote:
the reality has proven that sam440/460 (to which system it is closest in comarison) did not help to rebuild a market


On its own it won't ever rebuild a market. Wind back to my first posts and you will see that the standard parts concept is only part of any successful market rebuild. You need good apps that people want and excellent marketing also.

The SAM 460 must have been released as sales of the 440 made it worthwhile - although ACube are getting very little help their progress is slow but promising. However without decent software support and some push with marketing it will ultimately fizzle out.

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Tomppeli 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 21:16:05
#103 ]
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Joined: 18-Jun-2004
Posts: 1584
From: Home land of Santa, sauna, sisu and salmiakki

My personal opinion is:

1. Natami suits to old demo coders who love to mess with registers of classic (1980's style) chipsets and 68k assembler programming.

2. Like mr. Dickinson says X1000 is targeted to existing Amiga users who want to upgrade from their existing AmigaOne and Sam models. (I would say also it's for those people who want to see how close to the main stream Amiga can still get in 2010's).

Two completely different markets.

Also if the reason to favor Natami is because it has a programmable FPGA chip. Wasn't GPU's and shader units of nowadays gfx cards programmable too ?

(Edit) Also I think Sam's and AmigaOS are perfect for green computing market.

Yes, Apple and Amiga should not be compared ever. Apple became what they are now entering mp3 downloading business with the most perfect timing (nothing to do with desktop and laptop computers), they didn't ever go bankrupt and so on... We all know all of this already.

Last edited by Tomppeli on 15-Apr-2011 at 09:24 PM.
Last edited by Tomppeli on 15-Apr-2011 at 09:18 PM.
Last edited by Tomppeli on 15-Apr-2011 at 09:17 PM.

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hotrod 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 21:17:45
#104 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2758
From: Stockholm, Sweden

EDIT: blaaaahhhh

Last edited by hotrod on 15-Apr-2011 at 09:18 PM.

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cha05e90 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 21:33:51
#105 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1252
From: Germany

@wawa
Quote:
the reality has proven that sam440/460 (to which system it is closest in comarison) did not help to rebuild a market.

Depends on the definition of "market". There are quite a bunch of people who were *new* users in the market, i.e. me, DAX and some more who jumped directly from classic 68k Amigas into the SAMs. Same is true - with a different approach - for MorphOS: They got momentum by attracting *new* users from their OS3.x 68k machine to a MacMini (and more Macs in the meantime). And the next "market" might be a NatAmi market, those who will change their ageing 68k systems in favour of a NatAmi. Third "market". And I didn't count all those people (like Trevor) who jumped into everything, having a Mac with MorphOS, a SAM/X1000 and are in the frontline of buying a NatAmi (I suppose... ).

This in turn led to a second hand "market" of used AmigaOnes (XE, SE, micro) and Pegasos' I and II (and some Efika's). The 460 and the X1000 will in turn make a new wave of 2. hand systems, waiting for *new* users...

Look at my signature: I have the irrational fondness for (nowadays) niche hardware with AmigaOS/AmigaOID software. So a nice NatAmi might be a fine addition, but a Macintosh or a standard x86/64 PC will not happen for me. None of these systems will achieve world domination.

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BigD 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 22:00:00
#106 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4077
From: UK

@cha05e90

Quote:
but a Macintosh or a standard x86/64 PC will not happen for me. None of these systems will achieve world domination.


I'm surprised Apple has clawed itself back into such a powerful position in the computer industry. I think the iPod, iPhone and iPad have helped the Mac amazingly. Trevor is a great spokesman for the Amiga platform and a breath of fresh air compared to the trendy but mean Steve Jobs. It's a shame Dave Haynie can't see the value in the X1000 project.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 22:46:24
#107 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10691
From: Norway

@BigD

“Dave Haynie” is a hardware guy, he likes bit and bytes, so he likes NetAmi because its supper geeky computer.

AmigaOne X1000 has commodity parts its not as interesting from design point of view, its just common components put on motherboard whit PowerPC CPU.

The X1000 is first AmigaOS compatible computer whit dual core, X1000/Sam460 are the first generation AmigaOS compatible computers whit PCI express.

I think this interesting and makes it worth it.

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 22:49:07
#108 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@NutsAboutAmiga
plus the whole X-mos subsystem directly connected to the CPU and Xorro, those that love to hack will have fun with the X1000 too worry not...

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 22:58:11
#109 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10691
From: Norway

@DAX

X-Mos

As long as no one knows what to use if for, I'm highly skeptical if ever going to be used for anything, I'm not buying X1000 be course it has XMOS on it, besides its a expensive computer who wont's to do experiments on it and break it.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Apr-2011 at 11:00 PM.

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 22:59:41
#110 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@NutsAboutAmiga
Are you implying that the most tinker-friendly community in the world won't find a use for subsystem that's totally merged/fused in?
Fret not, people will have fun with it...

P.S
The fear of breaking it due to Xmos came up very often in past discussions, all I can say about it is that It wouldn't be there if it meant the destruction of all X-1000 in existance. Varisys would know that way before AW members...

Last edited by DAX on 15-Apr-2011 at 11:08 PM.

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ferrels 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 23:27:02
#111 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 686
From: Arizona

@-Sam-

Quote:

-Sam- wrote:
@ferrels

Quote:
The X1000 is "progress" and "the only game in town? Well, it's 7 year old technology and is using a CPU that's been discontinued. That's not what anyone will call progressive


I didn't say it was the best hardware available - I said it was the best out of what is available ie - using standard components to build a marketable system.

You want to name another system that is more 'the only game in town' than the X1000 and SAM systems?

Deafening silence - there aren't any other production systems!

You could argue that only includes the SAM as the X1000 isn't available yet.

Quote:
But I agree that the SAM440/460 is the only game in town IF you're an OS4 fan


From a rebuilding a market point of view it is the only option. The Natami will fill a niche but if you were trying to rebuild a market you wouldn't do it solely on NatAmi - you would need the X1000/SAM approach of using standard hardware. OS 3.9 is way too long in the tooth.

Besides the X1000 is not a closed door to MOS and AROS. I am a fan of all Amiga OS flavours.

Quote:
The market for Amigas has long since ceased to be. It's now just a hobbyist scene and will remain so.


Finally something we agree on. Yes - I believe it will but if you were trying to rebuild a market then your best approach - 'the only game in town' - would still be theSAM/X1000 approach. The NatAmi - although very cool - is not that option.


True, we're in agreement that ANY new Amiga hardware won't be the best in town. As a hobby-OS, I think that Amiga (OS4 and classic) will always be left using out-of-date hardware. The only new Amiga-like OS not held back by such limitations is AROS for x86.

The Natami wasn't designed to compete with any systems running OS4. As I said in an earlier post, it was designed for Amiga Classic fans who have dreamed to see an Amiga 5000 or greater. The Natami will approximate a fast 68060, which we all agree is "ancient" in terms of what's available today. I also don't think anyone here is delusional enough to think that the former Amiga market can be rebuilt. Thse days are long past. NG Amiga designers (X100 included) are just looking to fill niches to satisfy those of us who still enjoy thinking about what "might have been" had Amiga not gone out of business. OS3.9 may be long in the tooth, but that's what the Natami was designed to run. It will also run OS 3.9 with extensions for the new hardware and graphics modes and a new-and-improved networking and USB stack. A version of AROS is also being developed to run on it as well.

So if you're looking for an OS4 system, look elsewhere. The Natami is looking to recreate the A5000+ that never was, but the one we dreamed about before Amiga folded.

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jas_mc 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 23:27:53
#112 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2010
Posts: 232
From: Unknown

I don't think anyone should buy the A1-X1000 for the XMOS chip. My understanding is that it was a cheap addition and they added it as a fun extra. No one should be motivated to buy a - what - 1,500 computer? - based on an extra gadget that was thrown in at the suggestion of the board manufacturer and got the green light partly on the grounds that it didn't cost much (apologies if I've misremembered that).

You *should* buy an A1-X1000 if you a) have the money to spare, b) want to run AmigaOS 4.1 at 2 GHz and c) yearn for the days when you could buy an Amiga-branded complete system.

I don't believe the purpose of the A1-X1000 is to make Amiga a roaring success again. I think A1-X1000 exists because TrevorDick wants a powerful AmigaOS 4-compatible machine, and would be prepared to pay a lot of cash for one if it couldn't be mass produced.

The reason this has turned from daydream into reality is because Trevor has funds, and also believes there are enough like-minded people left for him to make his money back (plus a bit extra) from bringing that product into existence.

This is about doing something for the slice of the Amiga community that wants it. I think he's also hoping that the publicity and geek interest will pique curiousity in AmigaOS 4 more generally, even from people who would never buy an expensive bit of obscure hardware made in low numbers at high costs.

To be honest, I think it's wise. A gamble, but certainly achievable and possibly sustainable as the first of multiple projects. I think he has more chance of making his money back selling modest numbers of expensive, relatively powerful machines to hardcore fans, then he would have trying to flog cheaper mass-produced hardware to lots of fence-sitters.

Essentially he's making this computer for himself, so I absolutely wish him well (and anyone who wants to go along for the ride).

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cha05e90 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 23:43:00
#113 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1252
From: Germany

@BigD
Quote:
I think the iPod, iPhone and iPad have helped the Mac amazingly.


Absolutly! But in the end Apple earns it's millions with Apps and iStore music etc. stuff and not with hardware - especially not with Macintosh desktop computers.

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BigD 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 23:47:55
#114 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4077
From: UK

@jas_mc

Quote:
Essentially he's making this computer for himself, so I absolutely wish him well (and anyone who wants to go along for the ride).


It must be possible to build a self sustaining market if the machine is targeted at the correct niches! There is no point having solely Linux clones and even Timberwolf to run and expecting the whole scene to self perpetuate. Hopefully, development will pick up and Trevor, A-Eon, Varisys and Hyperion will start developing a strategy of how to sell enough to build the next model. I would call myself a begrudging Mac user, there must be more people like me.

I admitted using Deluxe Paint for my animations to my boss the other day. I wonder what he would think if he Googled it and found out how archaic the program is in this day and age!!! I still think the Amiga way of doing things at least in the way the operating system works and is arranged has no peers for the home environment.

The Amiga never cracked the office sector, not even C= used Amigas to run their own offices in the end!

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BigD 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 23:54:36
#115 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 4077
From: UK

@cha05e90

Quote:
But in the end Apple earns it's millions with Apps and iStore music etc. stuff and not with hardware


True, modern revenue streams on the internet involve taking your cut of advertising revenue or other people Apps that you distribute. C= used to have a thriving software development wing but it was not invested in. Jack Tramiel loved hardware and didn't see the value in software. He paid M$ a pittance for M$ Basic for instance. Irving Gould and Jack Tramiel became dinosaurs very quickly in the fast moving computer industry. Steve Jobs and Bill Gates rode the waves and defined the future direction of computing.

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wawa 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 1:24:55
#116 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5714
From: Unknown

what i wanted to say is this:
1. there is no way to rebuild the market, by means such as x1k or natami or similar. there is only some fraction of existing scene adressed by such projects. and i think this is obvious for those sane thinking. to rebuild a market or gain new shares quite a much more forward concept is neccessary.
2. i therms of shares within the current scene x1k and natami are about head in head, as even polls on this site have proven. both projects as such have no chances beyond here, while raw computing power gained by standard pc hardware vs what seems following genuine amiga concept in fpga remains an equal alternative. what will become the favourite choice remains up to customers, as soon the projects become available.

Last edited by wawa on 16-Apr-2011 at 01:25 AM.

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COBRA 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 5:17:46
#117 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

There's one big difference between NatAmi and X1000, which some people overlook. Amiga in its time was a cool computing alternative with multimedia and multitasking capabilities not seen before. NatAmi doesn't have any capabilities that would blow you away and it also doesn't stand a chance of being an alternative computing platform today. NatAmi is a re-implementation of the classic Amiga system, taking the original 25-year-old technology and concepts further. But the system doesn't have anything new to show today, because even a lower-end graphic chip today will be able to do far more impressive stuff with pixelshaders and the like. So its market will be limited to the retro-enthusiast-geek, which is fine of course and is the target market for the NatAmi. What about the X1000? It does have something new to show today with the Xena/Xorro system, which being part of a home computer is an entirely new concept waiting to be exploited by the geek community. It also has a good chance of being a suitable alternative to a modern PC, depending on software availability of course. I hope both will do equally well.

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hotrod 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 5:39:42
#118 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2758
From: Stockholm, Sweden

@COBRA

The Natami is interesting since it's what Commodore should've released in the 90's. It isn't something for people wanting to watch fullhd movies or play Crysis.

However, how amazing would any SAM or the X1000 be if it was combined with the Natami? I don't know how expensive but that would be a computer for me .

Yeah I will keep on dreaming.

Last edited by hotrod on 16-Apr-2011 at 05:40 AM.

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COBRA 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 6:14:40
#119 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@hotrod

If NatAmi was released in the 90's with these specs it would've been awesome back then. But today it's a different story. By the way if NatAmi's chipset could be put on a PCI card it could be used on any next-gen hardware or even PCs/Macs. It might actually have a bigger market that way.

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hazydave 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 7:08:23
#120 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Sep-2004
Posts: 65
From: Unknown

Quote:

Forcie-NatamiTeam wrote:
Dave Haynie, former chief engineer at Commodore and designer of a lot of classic Amiga chips, recently expressed his views on the Natami Project and the X1000 on Amiga.org. I thought it might be interesting for Amigans so I cross-posted it here:


Wow... a few comments, and the place goes nuts! Ok, as far as I do.. you do know there were more than a few people working at Commodore Amiga. And specifically, I was the main Hardware Systems Engineer on a number of Amigas. That included a couple of Buster chips, but as a rule, you have Hardware, Software, and Chip designers, and each did their own work. So while folks like George Robbins and I worked with Chip designers to figure out things like system interfaces for the major Amiga chips, we did not design them.

As for my view... just one guy's opinion. And yeah, I have been negative about many developments in the Amiga community. You might notice, though, that I've usually also been correct. I haven't necessarily been happy about that... I have no motive or wishes for things to fail. But I do have some experience in what it takes to succeed. And I'm making promises to you just to separate you from your money... except my "Garage Sale". But I already promised most of that stuff doesn't work.

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