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vidarh 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 12:05:15
#141 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@hazydave

Quote:
It's simple: for any AmigaOS system that hopes to grow its market, it needs to offer something to new users. That's perhaps not something folks here think about, but that was how I looked at it at Commodore. And the fact you all are here indicates that yeah, my gang helped to build the Amiga beyond the A1000. We grew the market. And, far as I know, we never sold you on something you didn't get. The X1000, whether its AEON themselves or the fanboys, I don't know, but it's writing checks it can't possible cash.


Part of the issue here is the potential customer base. Look at the wars that erupt here every time x86 is mentioned. If they had the capital to hire enough developers to bring it to a state where it had a reasonable hope of selling to a wider market, then they could move to x86 without too much risk, but as it stands they risk alienating a significant chunk of their core market without gaining enough new users if they try to make a switch.

As for the X1000, for my part I see it as a halfway house - it's expensive, sure, but it also has a certain amount of geek appeal from both the PPC which a lot of us has a lot of irrational attachment to, to the XMOS stuff, and it's an AmigaOS4 system that's finally getting fast enough to reach a tipping point for some of us.

Not as much geek appeal as the Natami, but on the other hand the Natami (at least the first generation) isn't going to be fast enough to be usable for many of the thing the X1000 will be fast enough to be usable for. It's about getting an AmigaOS system that has *some* of the old appeal while being fast enough for me to spend more of my daily computing time on. I'm willing to pay a lot extra for that even if the Natami seems more fun.

If/when M68k compatible FPGA Amiga clones get fast enough to be able to offer a fast web browsing experience and live video etc., I'd jump on it (that's pretty much the performance target I'd need to reach to be able to use a system "full time") - I'd love for these FPGA systems to be the future of AmigaOS (or AROS) compatible machines. But we're a few years away from them being viable contenders.

AROS on ARM might be another cheap-ish solution, but I do have an irrational fondness for M68k asm...

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vidarh 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 12:28:38
#142 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@hazydave

Quote:
I can see some potential use in some embedded applications, but only if it actually saved power over using, say, one far more powerful $10 ARM chip. It's not programmable silicon, it's a CPU array with a bunch of pretty uninteresting little tiny processors. If you really want to make things go fast on these machines, you need OpenCL ported, so you can use that Radeon GPU.


It misses the point. XMOS is not about performance, but about low latency and predictability without the complexity of a FPGA. You don't get the kind of low latency hard realtime guarantees that the XMOS chips provide out of a $10 ARM chip. You would get it out of an FPGA, but not many people have the skills to program one.

The XMOS on the other hand can be programmed in plain C with a small library, or in XC - mostly C with a few tiny extensions. It provides a lot of the same benefits of an FPGA but for software developers like me who are absolutely clueless about things like VHDL or the considerations needed to get a hardware design to work.

If the

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Spectre660 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 12:55:04
#143 ]
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Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3560
From: Unknown

@hazydave

Therefore condemning AmigaOS 4.x PPC to be a relatively expensive hobby platform.
But rewarding for those who enjoy it.

Quote:
Sure, there are plenty of things that don't need that kind of performance, but then again, 80% of what I do works just dandy on a $200 netbook or Android tablet

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number6 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 14:06:54
#144 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9802
From: In the village

@hazydave

Quote:
Possibly the most annoyance of all I had with the Amiga, Inc. of the 2000's was the fact they were do frackin' religious about PowerPC, rather than getting serious about CPU-independent AmigaOS.


The most annoyance I had was that the classic Amiga could multitask, whilst management could not.
Bolton Peck's quote from Bill that "classic is dead" just showed there was either no desire and/or ability to make money on what was still a viable market, whilst simultaneously preparing for the future.
Thank goodness they didn't listen to the PDC or they could be in the dreadful position of RIM/Blackberry now. Heh.

#6

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Boot_WB 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 14:07:28
#145 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@hazydave

Quote:

hazydave wrote:
Then again, she's now in TWO separate rock bands, as well as having a PhD in Psychology from Stanford... thus, cooler than me, and by extension, all of you.


roflol

Last edited by Boot_WB on 16-Apr-2011 at 02:07 PM.

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vidarh 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 14:19:48
#146 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

(oops, pressed submit again by accident after going back... edit to delete duplicate content)

Last edited by vidarh on 16-Apr-2011 at 02:21 PM.

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damocles 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 14:50:21
#147 ]
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Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@hazydave

Send you a PM.

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Leo 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 15:58:21
#148 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1552
From: Unknown

Quote:

If they had the capital to hire enough developers to bring it to a state where it had a reasonable hope of selling to a wider market, then they could move to x86 without too much risk, but as it stands they risk alienating a significant chunk of their core market without gaining enough new users if they try to make a switch.

What people don't seem to understand is that what we have now can hardly be considered a market. What we would gain by targetting a real "market" is so much more important than even loosing everyone here...

There are maybe a total of a thousand users (and I'm really optimistic).

Apple, which represents maybe 7% of the market, sold 4.18 Million Macs in the first quarter of this year. That's 46 444 machines *a day*. Compared with a thousand machines *a year* for any Amiga machine. And there's four quarter in a year.

So yes, I shouldn't compare, blabla... But imagine Amiga was producing and selling 10 000 times less machines than Apple. That would represent 4 machines a day, so 360 machines a quarter, which is already more than a thousand a year. And here we go, we already have more (new) users than we had before... And that's by selling 10 000 times less than what Apple does... We can surely hope for more...

We know what will be lost. We don't know what will be gained...

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 16:18:06
#149 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10691
From: Norway

@hazydave

The general problem for switching CPU to ARM or x86 is development resources, Hyperion has lot of on going projects they are not finished whit, they do not have the resources to make any jump.

What we are getting is the first dual core CPU that runs AmigaOS, and we are getting PCI express, besides that there is major undertaking in 3D graphics to be done, and there problem whit ever changing web browsers, no doubt will this be busy year for Hyperion.

If Hyperion did take up a lone, payed vendors to do drivers and focusing in going ARM, there is risk money invested wont be returned, and bankruptcy soon followed, is it not better to move at a slower phase and get something done, instead of going bankrupt and get nothing done.

We have PowerPC like it or not, going ARM or Intel now is not the right time, and if I may say so Apple is not doing too good in Intel market, its in the Iphone market they are making money right now.

I think ARM is a interesting chip because it can run in Big endien or Little endien mode,

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 16-Apr-2011 at 04:19 PM.

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hazydave 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 16:40:23
#150 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Sep-2004
Posts: 65
From: Unknown

Quote:

We have PowerPC like it or not, going ARM or Intel now is not the right time, and if I may say so Apple is not doing too good in Intel market, its in the Iphone market they are making money right now.


I don't know what you're talking about here... Apple is doing better with Intel than they ever did with PowerPC. They not only have a larger market share than ever before (largely due to the iPhone's coattails), they have the most profitable segment of the market.

They're doing something like 5-7% of the PC market, by unit. But the bulk of the expensive computers sold. The cheapest Mac laptop you can get costs $1000... the average paid in the USA last year for a laptop was about $520. Apple was below 1.5% of the market by the end of the PowerPC, moving rapidly toward that 1% threshold. Companies like Adobe were thinking about leaving the Mac market -- software critical to Apple's success. In fact, Apple's move into the software business was, originally anyway, designed to shore up the MacOS market in case every other vendor of professional media software took their toys and went home (to Windows, of course).

There is an inherent limit, in the long run, of how successful any single-vendor platform can be when there's a multi-vendor alternative. Apple's probably close to selling the most Macs they ever can, regardless of price. So they don't concentrate on maximizing volume, they concentrate on profit. The same thing is now happening to the iPhone. And why not.. there have been a total of 5 iPhone models since it's inception. And close to 200 Android phones, even though the iPhone had over a year's head start. When it was all proprietary OSs or stale stuff (SymbianOS, Windows Mobile), Apple was closing in on domination. Once there's an multi-platform option, they can't compete on numbers. Same thing will eventually happen to tablets, and probably faster than any really expected.

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Benji 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 17:34:27
#151 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Nov-2003
Posts: 573
From: Cheltenham or London, UK

@hazydave

Quote:
A couple of things. For one, the world was very different in 1996-1997. The PowerPC had not yet been given its death sentence.

...
Quote:
And that was 14 years ago. It's not uncommon for the wisdom of a decade and a half ago to be counted as foolishness today.


Best posts ever.

Not just for those quotes but also in other posts in this thread, for what I think is a very accurate summary of what the silent majority think...

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ferrels 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 18:30:15
#152 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 686
From: Arizona


Quote:

COBRA wrote:
There's one big difference between NatAmi and X1000, which some people overlook. Amiga in its time was a cool computing alternative with multimedia and multitasking capabilities not seen before. NatAmi doesn't have any capabilities that would blow you away and it also doesn't stand a chance of being an alternative computing platform today. NatAmi is a re-implementation of the classic Amiga system, taking the original 25-year-old technology and concepts further. But the system doesn't have anything new to show today, because even a lower-end graphic chip today will be able to do far more impressive stuff with pixelshaders and the like. So its market will be limited to the retro-enthusiast-geek, which is fine of course and is the target market for the NatAmi. What about the X1000? It does have something new to show today with the Xena/Xorro system, which being part of a home computer is an entirely new concept waiting to be exploited by the geek community. It also has a good chance of being a suitable alternative to a modern PC, depending on software availability of course. I hope both will do equally well.


@COBRA

Are you saying that the X1000 provides alternative multimedia and multitasking capabilities not seen before? If so, you are sadly mistaken and Xena/Xorro isn't going to provide any new earth-shaking experiences in computing. The X1000 has no chance of becoming an alternative to a modern PC. The technology behind the X1000 is already some 7 years old and is being developed around a CPU that has been discontinued. And what software does it have to offer in competition to PCs? I don't see any modern browsers for it, no office suite, no video editing capabilities, and no games being developed for it. It's a hobby system and you're delusional if you believe it will ever be a suitable alternative to modern PCs.

Why are people on this board so intent comparing two systems with totally different target audiences. The Natami team never said they were trying to develop a system to compete with modern systems, or the X1000, or even implement pixel shaders or other fancy GPU abilities.

Natami is for the retro-Amiga crowd who want to see a successor to the A4000 and beyond. End of story. It isn't trying to rebuild markets or take on the X1000 or any other platform.

As for your last sentence, hope is not a plan. And we've seen no plans from Hyperion or Trevor. Just a couple demos and some vague release dates that get delayed and postings about 5 mysterious developer boards that some clown tried to pass off as a production run.

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wawa 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 18:36:04
#153 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5714
From: Unknown

not that im entitled to an opinion, but dave sounds like a voice of reason itself.

Last edited by wawa on 16-Apr-2011 at 06:36 PM.

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amigang 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 18:43:50
#154 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1349
From: Cheshire, England

Why does everyone think that AmigaOS on x86/Arm hardware automically means success? Loads of other companies have tried, BeOS, QNX, O/S2 etc all with much bigger development teams and resource than what the Amiga market could ever muster now a days, Linux only survives because its free and open source and even that struggles to keep up with all the modern tech, drives etc that are required to support in 86x world, plus its not really taken off at all in the Arm world of tech thats now Android / Google home me think.

Also we have this angled covered with Aros and UAE, Aros is slowing gaining more momentum but is it attracting new users and new developers? will it take over the world even if it becomes the perfect AmigaOS on 86x? I highly doubt it, unfortunately the best it can do is maybe get as popular as one of Linux distribution packages, would that be consider successful? And with the OS being free where is the money and momentum going to come to keep pushing the Os forward?

UAE, the Universal Amiga Emulator I think is one of the best developed emulators for a system and its been ported to just about every system you can think off, PSP, PS3, Android, Wii etc etc, but how many user has that actually brought into the Amiga world other than to play the retro games, I mean how come no one is making simple touch games / programs for the Amiga user under use of the UAE if the AmigaOS is the best OS for these type of devices. Simple Answer is AmigaOS is not the best device for this you would have to change it and adapt it so much so was it really worth using the AmigaOS as a bases and could you still call it AmigaOS by the end of it?

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vidarh 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 18:50:41
#155 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@Leo

Quote:
What people don't seem to understand is that what we have now can hardly be considered a market. What we would gain by targetting a real "market" is so much more important than even loosing everyone here...


That doesn't help if they have no income stream and no investment to fund the necessary development to reach that kind of market. How many commercial niche OS's on x86 can you name? How much do you think it's cost to develop the few that are there? It's not like they can just recompile what they've got and go to market.

And AmigaOS x86 port would not magically expand the market. Who would buy it? Ex-Amiga users? The ones that have abandoned AmigaOS for other OS's are unlikely to be willing to migrate back to AmigaOS without a significant chunk of applications running on it first. If they just want m68k Amiga apps they have UAE. And they'd need to compete with AROS.

The point is there *is no money* to do this kind of port without a revenue stream, and without significant OS enhancements first there are few if any compelling reasons for any non-hardcore existing Amiga community members for buying an x86 AmigaOS port.

Unless you can somehow find someone willing to invest millions of dollars in AmigaOS development, Hyperion (and ACube and A-Eon) are stuck with nurturing the tiny markets they have access to and hope they can extract enough profit to improve things enough to slowly nurse it sufficiently back to health to start financing slightly more audacious projects.

Finding millions of dollars for AmigaOS development might've been possible 10-15 years ago, but not now, unless some incredibly rich current or ex-Amigan suddenly decides to risk their fortune. As it is we're lucky enough to have someone like Trevor Dickinson taking the fairly large risk he's taking with a significantly smaller investment.

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TrevorDick 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 18:55:11
#156 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2004
Posts: 2635
From: Wellington

For everyone who is thinking that the Power architecture is a dead end after PA-Semi. Take a peek at the Freescale QorIQ Processing Platforms by Family.

QorIQ Communications Platforms
P1 Platform - Up to 800 MHz, (less than 5W Max.)
P1010/P1014 low-power communications processors
P1020/P1011 single- and dual-core communications processors
P1021/P1012 single- and dual-core multiprotocol communications processors
P1022/P1013 single- and dual-core communications processors with advanced energy management
P1023/P1017 single- and dual-core communications processors with data path acceleration
P1024/P1015 single- and dual-core communications processors
P1025/P1016 single- and dual-core communications processors

P2 Platform - Up to 1.2 GHz, (less than8W Max.)
P2020 dual-core communications processor
P2040 quad-core communications processor with data path acceleration

P3 Platform - Up to 1.5 GHz, (less than 15W Max.)
P3041 quad-core communications processor

P4 Platform - Up to 1.5 GHz, (less than 30W Max.)
P4080 eight-core communications processor
P4040 quad-core communications processor

P5 Platform - Up to 2.2 GHz, (less than 30W Max.)
P5020 and P5010 single and dual core communications processor

I know I'm not a hardware engineer (massive understatement ) but it appears that multi-core Power CPUs have a healthy future if Freescale is anything to go by.

TrevorD


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vidarh 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 19:03:29
#157 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@amigang

Quote:
And with the OS being free where is the money and momentum going to come to keep pushing the Os forward?


This is where I point out that Redhat is worth ca $9 billion on selling services and software for a free OS.

Not that I think AROS has any hope of getting a company to that size or even a percent of that size - like you I don't think AROS has much of a hope of taking over the world -, but assuming you can't make money on free software has long been disproven.

phoenixconsole's media box with AMC for example, does have some potential to make money, even if it doesn't turn into a big business. But not really because of the OS as much as because of that specific application.

Personally I'd be happy if the combined Amiga-like OS's could get to the 50k user range - 1% of our heyday... It'd be enough to give us a steady stream of new applications and even some limited commercial support. It seems near impossible now, but then again so did the chance of Linux becoming a contender seem in the early 90's.

Quote:
I mean how come no one is making simple touch games / programs for the Amiga user under use of the UAE if the AmigaOS is the best OS for these type of devices.


While there's some validity to this, UAE is not a good way of judging what AmigaOS is capable of. Running UAE doesn't bring you anywhere near the "real" Amiga experience unless you dedicate a box to running it in fullscreen. There's tons of frustrating things with it.

That said, AmigaOS *isn't* the best OS for these types of devices as it stands today. OS's like Android etc. have tons of special purpose support for touch devices, and AmigaOS on the other hand is incredibly frustrating on a touch screen (no mouse buttons, etc.) - I've tried (well, I tried AROS via a VNC server on my Android phone, but close enough).

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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 19:15:53
#158 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 2938
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@hazydave

Quote:
Wow... a few comments, and the place goes nuts!


That's how it is around here - I'm sure you've noticed.

Quote:
I have been negative about many developments in the Amiga community. You might notice, though, that I've usually also been correct.


To be fair I think that in this market (what's left of it) you and pretty much everyone else will be correct as the chances for anything to be successful are mind-numbingly small.

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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 19:30:16
#159 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 2938
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@hazydave

Quote:
The best strategy for an actual resurrection of the AmigaOS was AmigaOS on commodity hardware. With a team that could actually keep evolving the AmigaOS in a modern direction


You see I was favouring the X1000 route as it was 'more standard' than something like NatAmi and therefore could be faster and upgraded easier. But really - what you are saying is that it is still obscure PPC - it is still woefully underpowered compared to - say - this i7 laptop I am using right now.

So from your point of view you would see the only way AmigaOS could have 'come back' would have been to go x86 or use some cheap ARM CPU?

Your comments about the history of Amiga in your other posts here are fascinating by the way. My nerdy Amiga side loves this stuff.

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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 16-Apr-2011 19:34:55
#160 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 2938
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@hazydave

Quote:
there is an absolutely finite number of these that can ever exist -- the CPU is out of production.


This is true but A-Eon have stated that it won't be a problem as they can move to the new multi-core CPUs being developed by Freescale, in particular the 64-bit dual core, 2.2 GHz P5020 and the 8-core, 1.5GHz P4080.

I'm not saying this will happen but just for your own info - and no - I don't think these things will be cheap either which lends to your argument about it all getting too expensive and still not quick enough to compete against a common x86.

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