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      /  Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
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vidarh 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 8:47:12
#181 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@opi

Quote:
If I want to go to cinema should I build it first? This should be in Hyperion interest. If it's not then, well, good luck with expanding user base.


It doesn't help if it's in their interest if they don't have the money to both do that, and continue doing what is currently paying their bills.

Subsisting in a small market is still better than going bankrupt reaching for a market that may very well not be there while neglecting your existing customers.

In an ideal world they'd have the resources to try anything that might increase the market, but we don't live in an ideal world.

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Samwel 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 9:05:41
#182 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 7-Apr-2004
Posts: 3396
From: Sweden

So if A-eon made a highend board with 1366 socket and Core i7 CPU.
How much would that board cost?
Probably at the same price (or near) as X1000 as I guess Core i7's aren't
sold to cheap in the 100's either?

However AmigaOS could be ported to x64 and initially be made to run
on most boards without optimization or even utilizing every feature of
the chipsets. Everything has to start from somewhere.

As PPC is dual endian a start would be to change the endianness of OS4
to be the same as x86/x64 while still developing the PPC version.
Then it would be much simpler to port it, I would guess.
Don't know how hard this would be though.
I seem to remember OS4 devs talking about AmigaOS making assumptions
about endianess thus making it really hard to change or make endian "aware".

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cheesegrate 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 9:44:34
#183 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Apr-2007
Posts: 259
From: Australia

@Wizzard_o

I love how the os4 fans chimed in disagreeing with what Dave said, how predictable

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CodeSmith 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 9:54:43
#184 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@cheesegrate

I have a hunch that if Dave had said that OS4 is great and PPC is the best way to make a next-gen amiga, someone else would be chiming in to disagree (exactly who would be disagreeing would depend on what was said). Just sayin'

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eXec 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 9:58:12
#185 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@cheesegrate

Quote:

cheesegrate wrote:
@Wizzard_o

I love how the os4 fans chimed in disagreeing with what Dave said, how predictable


It`s quite normal for this situation. Fully predictable reaction on Dave`s truth
that is being presented all the time around these "waters". I am just curious how
come that no one said even to Dave that he is trolling and CUSA fan. About
ppc boys, they obvious have a holy mission in keeping desktop ppc platform
alive. It`s a huge market though.

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drHirudo 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 10:07:03
#186 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1082
From: Sofia

@cheesegrate

Quote:

cheesegrate wrote:
@Wizzard_o

I love how the os4 fans chimed in disagreeing with what Dave said, how predictable


Well, I am probably one of these fans that you are talking about. I neither agreed, neither disagreed. I stayed quiet because he is as irrelevant to the Amiga as he have been in the last 27 years. He is not a part of the original Amiga team, what he designed at Commodore was mostly for the 8-bits (C-128) and the for the Amiga stuff - well people outside Commodore created better CPU cards etc.

Of course you are free to disagree or agree with me, but this is my point of view.

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CodeSmith 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 10:07:57
#187 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 3045
From: USA

@eXec

Jeez, get over yourself. Dave's been a proponent of x86 for quite a few years now, so no-one was shocked when he again said that PPC is a dead-end (and I must say that I agree on both counts - there are exactly two 32 bit architectures that have any significance at all in 2011: x86 and ARM). I'm surprised he had good things to say about Natami, given his similar stance on custom silicon. I suspect it's because it's clearly a hobby effort, if the Natami team were trying to seriously market it he'd probably be a lot more critical.

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 10:16:59
#188 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

Amiga, has a small core market right now (yes, VERY small) and going down this road, the X1000 could provide the right platform for the OS to "evolve", thus leading to a cheaper X---- solution that might in turn grow the market by fishing in a (still small) pool of ex OS3.9 users.

Yes I know, small goals (which are actually not that small considering our situation) which cater for an existing group of individuals that love the Amiga Operating System and love not to give in to Wintel/Mactel corporation.

If you ditch your potential users base for the "bigger" market (as some have suggested) you have to face the harsh reality that the people in that market were NOT waiting for you.

Dave said Apple did better on x86 than they did with PPC, but the reason for that has nothing to do with the "switch", it has to do with billion dollars marketing campaigns around their other "hip" products iPod/Iphones etc. (which Dave also mentioned) without which, the overpriced x86 Macs wouldn't sell any better than the PPC ones of before.

Is there anyone in Amigaland with enough money to pull that off? If there is, than would the real billionaire please stand up?

Last edited by DAX on 17-Apr-2011 at 10:19 AM.

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eXec 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 10:26:12
#189 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@DAX

Quote:

DAX wrote:
Amiga, has a small core market right now (yes, VERY small) and going down this road, the X1000 could provide the right platform for the OS to "evolve"



Do you really think it will bring new users? And if, how many of them? 10? 20? 50?
Let`s say it brings 100 and, where is the evolution there? Where are the applications?
I think that mostly X1000 will be bought by the ones that already have sam boards.
New users will be just few of them. That are my predictions. I wish I was wrong.





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eXec 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 10:28:55
#190 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@CodeSmith

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote:
@eXec

Jeez, get over yourself. Dave's been a proponent of x86 for quite a few years now, so no-one was shocked when he again said that PPC is a dead-end (and I must say that I agree on both counts - there are exactly two 32 bit architectures that have any significance at all in 2011: x86 and ARM). I'm surprised he had good things to say about Natami, given his similar stance on custom silicon. I suspect it's because it's clearly a hobby effort, if the Natami team were trying to seriously market it he'd probably be a lot more critical.


I just said what appears to be true. I just don`t get why are we always going the harder
and longer , more painful way. It is like investing in hydrogen motor into old timer.
Natami looks quite good thing for me, a decent classic replacement.

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 10:37:28
#191 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@eXec
you got me wrong, and who knows 100 new users could be a good figure (outside the existing OS4 population I mean)
What I meant was a 2 steps plan, the X1000 will serve as a working ground for the OS to evolve (and it will be sold to existing OS4 users + a few new comers in which I include a small number of individuals coming from the Linux and Xmos worlds, I repeat "small").

The growing of the market would come later with cheaper machines that will enjoy the benefits generated on the X1000 (SMP, advanced 3D and so on).
A cheaper machine running OS5 (or whatever they decide to call the next commercial update to AmigaOS) might be of interest to people that used to have OS3.9 and stopped using it (a pool of around 13.000 people).
Again, small numbers of a niche market.

With current resources I don't think you can aim higher than that, unless an investor comes in putting more money on the table, thus raising the bar even further.
How much can you raise it? Depends on the money you invest, however "any higher" it still better than "any lower".

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eXec 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 10:51:16
#192 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@DAX

Ok...everything you say, it stands on it˙s place... Let`s say it like that...
But there is a small question now...

How much time will it take ? 3 or 5 years to come to life?

:)

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newlight 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 10:59:34
#193 ]
Super Member
Joined: 10-Sep-2007
Posts: 1490
From: Somewhere in Spain

@Forcie-NatamiTeam

Dave Haynie doesn't convice the community there...

Why don't we ask about new Amiga games like the Amiga One's Racer or anything new? Port or develop Monkey Island 4 or Monkey Island 5 to a new Amiga? Enbeauty anything new?

Come on let's throw the roll and dice again...!!! Yeah we see some numbers... Hahaha..

Seriously what would you like to see on the Amiga World?

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 11:12:40
#194 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@eXec
X1000 must be released ASAP (no questions about it) and should spark the necessary SW developments (both OS side, and applications side).
If they manage to sell out all they can make (given the "finite" number of PA6T avaialble) it would then mean two things A) There is some market, B) "We need a new System as we can't make these anymore"

I hope all of the above will take place in the next two years (tops) and that discussion of an NG system based on the modernized AOS"x", will take place together with additional investors.

QorlQ CPUs like any other, cost less the more you order, thus depending on what money will be on the table then, the price of the (supposedly) cheaper AmigaOne will be defined.

Whow knows if CUSA will drop in some of their fathomed "millions" and make an AmigaOS machine together with current involved parties (doubtful, but what do we know )

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eXec 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 11:27:12
#195 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@DAX

Still, no answer.. How many time must pass?

3, 5, 7 years?

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KingKong 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 11:57:13
#196 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Oct-2006
Posts: 95
From: Germany

@hazydave

Europe has to develop its own hardware (CPU, GPU, ...) and own OS because anything from USA is out of option (for security reasons). AmigaOS and hardware can be developed with money from the EU (think of some 1.000.000.000 ) and it will pay because of all the money saved from MS & Intel.

Important are infrastructure, military use, communication, industrial control ... and not the 3D-latest-game-highend-PC. So key-elements are safety, reliability and efficiency (low power consumption) and not 150 fps on a 500 watts PC. PPC and ARM can do fine here.

I think it would be a good idea to buy the P.A. Semi stuff (all rights, patents, knowhow, ...) as a starting point to develop CPUs for Europe. The question is not whether to develop a CPU for Europe ... the question is: how to get the best and quick results.

All there is left to do is to convince enough politicians and maybe the X1000 is a good start.

Well, what do you think? What hardware could be a good starting point? How to convince the EU (European Union)?

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COBRA 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 12:02:06
#197 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1809
From: Auckland, New Zealand

@ferrels

Quote:
The Natami isn't "stuck" with OS3.1/3.9. AROS 68K is being ported to the Natami and new extensions to OS 3.1/3.9 and AROS are being added


As far as AmigaOS is concerned it is stuck with 3.9 at best. And yes I know that open-source OS'es like AROS or even Linux can be ported, those can be ported to any hardware... By the way is it known, which OS it will be shipped with? Will they have some sort of license to ship NatAmi with AmigaOS? How will the machine reach the users? You call NatAmi the successor of the A4000, but you forget that the A4000 was not just a piece of motherboard with custom chips on it, it was a complete system, including the OS to make it usable.

Quote:
And the X1000 team will have to do a better job at promoting the X1000.


And why is that? They have stated from the beginning that it's a machine specifically for the Amiga enthusiast market and their plan with it is not to exploit markets outside the Amiga community. In the same way as NatAmi is not aiming to win over the PC/Mac community. Both target a certain segment in the very small Amiga community. There'll probably be a number of people buying both. So I fail to see why the X1000 needs more promoting than NatAmi.

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opi 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 12:11:12
#198 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@KingKong

Quote:
AmigaOS and hardware can be developed with money from the EU




Quote:
Important are infrastructure, military use, communication, industrial control ... and not the 3D-latest-game-highend-PC. So key-elements are safety, reliability and efficiency (low power consumption) and not 150 fps on a 500 watts PC


Because AmigaOS provides safety, is reliability and efficiency over. say, Linux.

Quote:
Well, what do you think?


That you should stop thinking that AmigaOS or any other hobby OSes provides any value for real world.

EDIT: Kant spel.

Last edited by opi on 17-Apr-2011 at 12:33 PM.
Last edited by opi on 17-Apr-2011 at 12:14 PM.
Last edited by opi on 17-Apr-2011 at 12:13 PM.

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 12:28:00
#199 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@eXec
Some time will have to pass between the X1000 release and what's next that's for sure. On my part I don't feel I will have to wait much as the X1000 will be fully packed in dealer wharehouses before Christmas (right A-eon?) so it's just a few months...
For anything cheaper time will tell I don't have a crystal ball
Needless to say they don't have all the time of this world, and must put their act together, otherwise no success will come (for how small it might be).
If you want me to guarntee time dates, and success I cannot of course, and I'm well aware things might not go well. Hopefully we'll get a decent outcome.

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KingKong 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 12:52:00
#200 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Oct-2006
Posts: 95
From: Germany

@opi

Curiously enough millions think that MS has any value for the real world.

AmigaOS is small and can well be developed ... MS is too big, it's over for them.

A possible question may be: why not Linux? ... Well, the fans of Amiga better think of some good reasons (if not, it'll be Linux).

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