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      /  Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
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eXec 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 22:46:23
#281 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@TrevorDick

One small question to you.. If someone buys AInc..can that affect on the
licenses given to Hyperion? Or they got them forever?

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vidarh 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 22:46:43
#282 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@damocles

Quote:
Questions for you, what generation are those PPC cores? G2?


The "G" numbers refers to IBM CPU's. It's meaningless when referring to cores from others except if based on licensed versions of the IBM CPU's or unless you're comparing specific benchmarks.

The core's QorIQ are based around are 4th, 5th and 6th generation of Motorola/Freescale's own PowerPC designs, I believe, with various iterations for die for new fab processes.

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hazydave 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 22:51:34
#283 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Sep-2004
Posts: 65
From: Unknown

@-Sam-

Quote:

@hazydave

Quote:
there is an absolutely finite number of these that can ever exist -- the CPU is out of production.


This is true but A-Eon have stated that it won't be a problem as they can move to the new multi-core CPUs being developed by Freescale, in particular the 64-bit dual core, 2.2 GHz P5020 and the 8-core, 1.5GHz P4080.


I guess you can say "can" interchangeably with "have to" here. That's certainly a new motherboard design. And the e5500 core isn't all that fast.. about 3MIPS/MHz. Ok, slightly better than an ARM Cortex A9 (which is 2.5MIPS/MHz), not desktop class (Intel Atoms are about the same basic performance class, the slower desktop processors offer at least twice that performance per MHz these days). And no vector math unit, so many ARM implementations will actually be faster.

On the other hand, a P5020 or other P5 series chip would kick some butt on networking performance. This guy can do 10GbE, and 5 separate GbE channels. It also has AES/DES encryption acceleration in hardware. And the RapioI/O bus. And it's a 64-bit core. In short -- a great chip for a network processing device. But you're paying for all kinds of stuff that AmigaOS 4.x can't use right now. Do they have SMP up and running? A 64-bit port? I mean, sure, these are decent enough to say you have modern application processing performance -- AmigaOS on one of these will definitely outperform your iPad 2. Unless, of course, you're decoding or encoding video (no SIMD instructions, separate processor for video decode... maybe on the graphics card) or other "heavy lifting".

In fact, they could have used the older versions, Freescale's P3 or P4, and been upward compatible with the P5 series from the get-go. It's expensive to develop a new motherboard. If I spend $100,000 on a new system, and only sell 1000, that's an extra $100 per board just to break even, not to mention amortizing Engineering cost (usually estimated about $150,000 per engineering man-year, counting salaries and overhead). When you're buying an "Amiga" with the performance of a $300 PC, you're paying a premium anyway. This kind of stuff seems pretty shortsighted, with respect to the potential customer anyway.

Quote:

I'm not saying this will happen but just for your own info - and no - I don't think these things will be cheap either which lends to your argument about it all getting too expensive and still not quick enough to compete against a common x86.


I mean, yeah, what do these QorIQ chips cost? I don't know. But just single channel 10GbE cards for PCI cost $700+. I mean, it's good for the AEON people that they have a place to go of some kind, but this might even make the price go up.

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pavlor 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 22:54:11
#284 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8415
From: Unknown

@eXec

Quote:
can that affect on the
licenses given to Hyperion? Or they got them forever?


According to the September 30 Settlement Agreement aquirer must comply with all obligations of Amiga.Inc under the Settlement Agreement. (the same for potential sale of Hyperion)

The licence is perpetual (september 30 Settlement Agreement, 1.b, page 3).

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number6 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 22:54:27
#285 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9796
From: In the village

@TrevorDick

Quote:
BTW I can still cash all my cheques (or is it checks?)


Quote:
The Chancellor of the Exchequer is the title held by the British Cabinet minister who is responsible for all economic and financial matters


Well, in the U.S. an "exchequer" would be someone who switched from checkers to chess. Heh.

#6

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eXec 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 22:55:54
#286 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@hazydave

Quote:
When you're buying an "Amiga" with the performance of a $300 PC, you're paying a premium anyway. This kind of stuff seems pretty shortsighted


I think that the word overpaying shall describe it a bit more better ;)

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hazydave 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 22:56:54
#287 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Sep-2004
Posts: 65
From: Unknown

Quote:

cheesegrate wrote:
@hazydave

Quote:
One of other top SW guys, Carsten Scholte, had started developing an Amiga-like OS on his own, and that eventually became CaOS.


So your team created an enhanced amigaos without the amigaos licence and yet you criticize the morphos team for doing the same? And some of the morphos team are those amiga devs you hired? please explain


We built an Amiga-like OS for a set top box. We didn't steal a single line of code from AmigaOS, and we didn't try to sell as "the new AmigaOS".

The MorphOS people did not not-do any of those things.

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hazydave 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 23:01:01
#288 ]
Member
Joined: 8-Sep-2004
Posts: 65
From: Unknown

Quote:

CodeSmith wrote:
@cheesegrate

I have a hunch that if Dave had said that OS4 is great and PPC is the best way to make a next-gen amiga, someone else would be chiming in to disagree (exactly who would be disagreeing would depend on what was said). Just sayin'


Of course they would. And that's why I'm stressing, THESE ARE MY OPINIONS. Not some gospel delivered from on high -- this is not an Apple board, and I'm not projecting a reality distortion field. One of these days, maybe... I think that's Apple's best invention ever.

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vidarh 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 23:15:19
#289 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@hazydave

Quote:
I mean, yeah, what do these QorIQ chips cost? I don't know. But just single channel 10GbE cards for PCI cost $700+. I mean, it's good for the AEON people that they have a place to go of some kind, but this might even make the price go up.


Looking up the 4080 on Freescale's site, they cost ~$500 in quantities of 100 for the 8 core 1.5GHz version. So while each core might not be much better than an Atom, for 8 of them, with support for 8 1G ethernet, it's not bad. Not fantastic, but getting there.

Of course there's not much point until SMP is in place in AmigaOS. Perhaps that is the main reason why they went with PA6T over QorIQ - if the per core performance beats the QorIQ alternatives that are in similar price range, then it might be a sensible tradeoff for now.


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wawa 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 23:18:39
#290 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5714
From: Unknown

@TrevorDick

Quote:

But running AmigaOS under Windows or Linux just doesn't really feel like a real Amiga.

right, if in case of winuae, the underlaying system has to be fully started with all the gui/services/whatever (especially it is commercial). winuae is for me more of an ersatz. but if the host system only serves as hal, as it was in case of amithlon so far i understood, i would give it same recognition as a native ppc solution. 68k software runs in therms of emulation on both. both are *rtg only* solutions based in fact on pc standards or components (except for ppc cpu) and threrefore both need uae for hardware banging non rtg amiga software. there is not so much difference in my eyes.

Quote:

Unfortunately, even if this was based on x86 or some other CPU the development cost for low volume production would still be high.

this argument is completely unclear to me. why would we need low volume development or production of components that are already available en masse? from what i see the concept of x1k is of a prefectly usual motherboard, except for the cpu used and the xmos-addition. all other interfaces follow pc standards. switching to x86 you could just take any genuine pc motherboard/cpu you prefer (and stick an xmos expansion card in it if you really need it) and you will have your equivalent.

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Stephen_Robinson 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 23:19:48
#291 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Apr-2005
Posts: 1991
From: UK

Quote:

hazydave wrote:

We built an Amiga-like OS for a set top box. We didn't steal a single line of code from AmigaOS, and we didn't try to sell as "the new AmigaOS".

The MorphOS people did not not-do any of those things.


Where's the popcorn icon when you need one!

Last edited by Stephen_Robinson on 17-Apr-2011 at 11:21 PM.

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Caveman 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 23:26:02
#292 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Feb-2005
Posts: 655
From: Norway

@Stephen_Robinson

Quote:

Stephen_Robinson wrote:
Quote:

hazydave wrote:

We built an Amiga-like OS for a set top box. We didn't steal a single line of code from AmigaOS, and we didn't try to sell as "the new AmigaOS".

The MorphOS people did not not-do any of those things.


Where's the popcorn icon when you need one!


Here you go --> http://www.garrettpopcorn.com/

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minator 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 23:30:42
#293 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@hazydave

Quote:
We built an Amiga-like OS for a set top box. We didn't steal a single line of code from AmigaOS, and we didn't try to sell as "the new AmigaOS".

The MorphOS people did not not-do any of those things.



At the time MorphOS was started Amiga OS was dead. They created something along the lines of Haiku - a better recreation than the original. OS4 was started after MorphOS. I don't know the time difference but IIRC it was several years.

More importantly, the MorphOS guys have always vehemently denied that they stole any code.

There have been plenty of allegations and even threats of legal action, but I don't believe anyone have ever produced anything to back these allegations up.

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Stephen_Robinson 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 23:31:21
#294 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Apr-2005
Posts: 1991
From: UK

@Caveman

Cheese popcorn mixed with Caramel Popcorn? That sounds absolutly 'orrible..

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Caveman 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 23:32:39
#295 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Feb-2005
Posts: 655
From: Norway

@Stephen_Robinson


You did'nt say what kind of popcorn

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TrevorDick 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 17-Apr-2011 23:40:36
#296 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2004
Posts: 2635
From: Wellington

@number6

Quote:
Well, in the U.S. an "exchequer" would be someone who switched from checkers to chess.


Well it is a chequered "Boing Ball" after all, or should that be checkered?

TrevorD

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sundown 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 0:00:39
#297 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Aug-2003
Posts: 5095
From: Right here...

@TrevorDick

Quote:
Nice talking to you. In the past few months I've had the privilege of talking with Carl Sassenrath (and drinking some of his excellent wine) and Dale Luck, two of the original Amiga development team at AmiWest 2010 and now you, even if it is only via this forum.

Plans are being made for Amiwest 2011, last year you said you'd like to return for the 2011 show in October. Hope you'll consider a return, I'm still waiting for a 'real" show date.

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Rob 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 0:18:12
#298 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5563
From: S.Wales

@damocles

Quote:
Looks like the upcoming Freescale i.mx6 does. I would be shocked to find out that is the only ARM SoC to have PCI express.


imx6 appears to be a future product and there are no indications of how many PCIe lanes it has. The main problem with ARM and OS4 is that OS4 is a desktop oriented OS and ARM hardware is primarily mobile. If there are no readily available ARM desktop boards then an ARM port of OS4 is in no better position for the desktop than the current PPC boards. You will still have expensive custom boards that will only sell to a small customer base.

If OS4 is to switch architecture then x86 is currently the only viable option. The main problem is of course that Hyperion have very limited resources and a switch to any other architecture would probably be several years away even if all PPC development work stopped today.

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eXec 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 0:34:08
#299 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@pavlor

But , on the other side...if someone buys AInc....he also gots rights on Amiga OS
name...AInc did not gave or sell those licenses so that they can not use them if
they want? Or?

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eliyahu 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 0:38:02
#300 ]
Super Member
Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1725
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@vidarh

Quote:
The "G" numbers refers to IBM CPU's. It's meaningless when referring to cores from others except if based on licensed versions of the IBM CPU's or unless you're comparing specific benchmarks.

the 'G' designation came from apple marketing. internally neither the 750 nor the 970 projects weren't referred to as 'G'-anything as i recall. the project names officially used were 'arthur' and 'GPUL,' the latter so-called because it was an 'ultra-light' version of GP, a.k.a., gigaprocessor, a.k.a., spinnaker, a.k.a., the POWER4 processor.

dunno the history behind the 750 per se, although i worked with some of the folks from somerset that did; i was around for the tail-end of the 970 effort when POWER6 concept work was getting kicked off.

-- eliyahu

Last edited by eliyahu on 18-Apr-2011 at 12:39 AM.

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