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      /  Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
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ferrels 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 15:34:21
#381 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 686
From: Arizona

@pavlor

No, its 7 year old technology. X86 systems were outperforming the X1000 CPU back in 2004.

And the Natami wasn't designed to compete with the x1000 or any other system out there. It's a 68k retro board and will perform as such.

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Mechanic 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 15:48:26
#382 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote:
@pavlor

No, its 7 year old technology. X86 systems were outperforming the X1000 CPU back in 2004.

And the Natami wasn't designed to compete with the x1000 or any other system out there. It's a 68k retro board and will perform as such.


X1000 was not designed to compete with Natami or any other system out there. It's
a OS4 targeted custom motherboard.

X86 systems were outperforming the Natami CPU back in ..................

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 15:52:01
#383 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@ferrels
I don't think that you have too much information about real street performance of the PA6T, to claim that.
Only a few benchs appeared and the source of those benchs are unreachable for clarifications on how tests were performed, if they included both cores or just one, and other questions (peopel have speculated, but no official word).
I'm afraid that the only way to know how fast the PA6T is in desktop applications, will be to wait for the x1000 release.
Otherwise I would refrain to talk with authority about obscure CPUs nobody spent quality time with.

_________________
SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

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ferrels 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 15:55:32
#384 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 686
From: Arizona




@COBRA

And why do you think that someone has to own Amiga OS to legally write extensions for it? Third party developers write OS extensions all the time. I'll even quote a few example such as the Deneb USB Sfor Amiga OS, or the Genesis TCP Stack. None of those developers owned Amiga OS nor were they sued for writing extensions for it. Your argument is rather absurd that you cant extend an OS unless you own it. You also keep neglecting to even address that AROS 68K is being ported over to the Natami it will have near 100% compatibility with native Amiga software and also provide functionality way beyond what's found in OS 3.9. Youre the only one who is spreading FUD because you refuse to educate yourself by visiting the Natami site. You continue to speak of markets, targets and business like the X1000 will somehow bring back Amiga's glory days by providing a viable alternative to systems already out there. It won't.

Last edited by ferrels on 18-Apr-2011 at 04:03 PM.

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ferrels 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 16:00:16
#385 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 686
From: Arizona

@DAX

I'll talk about the x1000's poor performance all I want. Especially since the developer isn't willing to discuss how poorly it performs. Several 3rd parties have benchmarked this CPU and it performs as well as x86 systems did in 2004. Google is your friend.

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ferrels 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 16:02:18
#386 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 686
From: Arizona

@Mechanic

No kidding Sherlock. That's what I've been trying to get across to Cobra but he insists that its designed to be a competitor to OS 4 systems and not a retro 68k hobby project.

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 16:08:08
#387 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@ferrels
Google is your friend when the information you find is clear and those posting it are reachable for clarifications. Otherwise Google in our particular case might be quite irrelevant up until we test with Blender or encode some videos.
We all saw those benchs and they comply with what I wrote above. To my simple final advice I forgot to add "...if you want to be taken seriously", otherwise be my guest...

_________________
SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

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OlafS25 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 16:10:06
#388 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5078
From: Unknown

@ferrels

Natami is what we all had wished in the mid 90s. It is a fun computer, fast enough for many purposes with updated hardware and some innovations. It is not aimed as PC-killer or outperforming PowerPC. But in some cases and good use of the hardware you can certainly do great things with it.

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TheDungeonDelver 
Re: Performance Battle
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 16:12:19
#389 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 17-Apr-2004
Posts: 812
From: Unknown

@cheesegrate

Quote:

cheesegrate wrote:
Its quite likely that war is possible between the USA and The EU over AmigaOS as Kingkong rightly points out.

I know i will be labeled a conspiracy theorist has the USA been paying Hyperion to slow down the development of AmigaOS to hide its true power from the EU? Obviously Intel and MS pose a grave and present danger to the EU, I mean it would be a betrayal of the motherland if the new Panzer tanks have USA Intel technology. Now if they only had the superiour AmigaOS with PowerPC onboard i think kingkong and the rest of our fatherland would feel a lot more secure in the future of the amiga.


ha ha ha...oh god for a second I thought you were serious.

_________________
The problem with AmigaOS on PPC isn't that PPC is big-endian. The problem with AmigaOS on PPC is that PPC is dead-endian.

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ferrels 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 16:17:35
#390 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 686
From: Arizona

@OlafS25

You're absolutely right and that's what I've been trying to get across to Cobra and a few others who are misinformed about the Natami project. They mistakenly believe that the Natami was created to compete with OS 4 systems such as the X1000.

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OlafS25 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 16:23:11
#391 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5078
From: Unknown

@ferrels

both are more or less Amiga-based but I think AmigaOS 4 is more competing with Aros. The concepts behind Natami and AmigaOS 4 are very different. Propably because some claim that AmigaOS is the only and true Amiga-platform...

The Natami is a combination of custom hardware and Operating System in the old (classic) sense

And it is limited by the FPGA (speed and size), but the FPGAs become bigger and faster with every generation (same price), so there is way for evolution

Last edited by OlafS25 on 18-Apr-2011 at 04:29 PM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 18-Apr-2011 at 04:24 PM.

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ferrels 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 16:24:01
#392 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 686
From: Arizona

@DAX

I'm not here to do your Google searches for you and much of the world finds the information from Google accurate and useful. You can continue to try and prevent information about the x1000's poor performance from being discussed here by asking me and others to refrain from speaking about it but YOU won't be taken seriously because all you do is try to censor this thread.

Fact: CPU for x1000 discontinued
Fact: Discontinued because it is outperformed by modern CPUs
Fact: Performs on par with X86 processors from 2004

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clebin 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 16:27:06
#393 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Cardiff

@Mechanic

I don't think you can compare the two. X1000 is inextricably wound up in the future of OS 4 in a way that Natami isn't with AROS or Amiga 3.x.

Core developers aren't being taken away from others tasks to work on Natami - it's really a separate project. Natami isn't the main way to attract new developers to either work on AROS or AROS apps - any improvements made to AROS x86 just get ported to 68k. You could quote Sam as a way to attract people to OS 4, though expensive in itself, but then why are they pushing ahead with the uber-machine when they can't deliver timely support for the machines already on sale?

It's not so much I think X1000 is a bad product. It's very desirable to me in its own way. I just question whether this is the best use of limited resources for the boost it gives to the platform.

Chris

Last edited by clebin on 18-Apr-2011 at 04:29 PM.
Last edited by clebin on 18-Apr-2011 at 04:28 PM.

_________________
AROS - verb (Welsh) - To wait, to await, to stay, to abide.
- Clebin Games - www.clebin.co.uk -

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mausle 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 16:32:26
#394 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Sep-2003
Posts: 139
From: Unknown

@damocles

Quote:

damocles wrote:
@COBRA

Quote:
Does AROS have more developers than OS4?


If you mean active developers, that would be a good question indeed.



Looking at commits of the last few days at http://repo.or.cz/w/AROS.git
AROS has about 10 currently active developers. Then there are other
people outside the core devs creating and uploading stuff to
http://archives.aros-exec.org. Of course activity changes all the time for
various reasons.

Dunno about OS4 or MOS.

ciao

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Arko 
Re: Performance Battle
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 16:32:55
#395 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@KingKong

Quote:

KingKong wrote:

My "interesting thought" is a trick to get the AmigaOS rights cheaper. .


The AROS rights are quite cheaper than AmigaOS4 rights, same for Linux, BSD or Haiku. There are dozens of free Open Source OSes that cost less and could do more than AOS4.

And PPC rights are expensive too, better stay with OSes that are already ported to other systems.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 16:41:45
#396 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@ferrels
Of the the 3 statements you posted above only the first one is correct.

The second is a little out there, as far less performing PPC CPUs are still in production and as a matter of fact PA6T is still the most powerful dual core embedded PPC around (as current QorlQ models, unlike future one, lack Altivec).
As for the third, again, I spend a lot of time here, it was discussed several times, over and over again, it's not that any of us hasn't googled enough (quite a lot actually) but no useful information for our kinds of desktop applications were found. Attempt to contact a few sources were met with no replies.
This CPU was only used in aerospace and military applications, we have a few benchmarks VS G5, made by an aerospace company using optimized code which resulted in the PA6T outperforming the G5 by several orders of magnitude (and by extension also x86 CPUs younger than 2004) but I don't mention it because it tells us nothing at all.
Until we make some video encoding or 3D rendering with it, what we've found so far is irrelevant data that in best case scenarios misses important details, it the worst case scenarios is totally irrelevant to desktop usage.

P.S
I believe that your little quarrel with Cobra is a misunderstanding upon misunderstanding. The guy likes Natami and he will probably buy one, there must be a reason wouldn't you say?
Everybody loves Natami around here (I'm another customer) no need to defend it in friendly waters...

Last edited by DAX on 18-Apr-2011 at 04:46 PM.

_________________
SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

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Arko 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 16:58:36
#397 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@DAX

Quote:


The second is a little out there, as far less performing PPC CPUs are still in production and as a matter of fact PA6T is still the most powerful dual core embedded PPC around ...


No it's just a SoC designed for laptops that should have replaced the aging G4 models by something with a performance near to the faster G5 systems.

Not long ago you could have bought this little G5 beast as new:
http://thing1.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3269423832.html

It was expensive, but cheaper and more powerful as the A1X1K.

Last edited by Arko on 18-Apr-2011 at 05:03 PM.
Last edited by Arko on 18-Apr-2011 at 04:59 PM.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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damocles 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 17:09:21
#398 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@DAX

Quote:
we have a few benchmarks VS G5, made by an aerospace company using optimized code which resulted in the PA6T outperforming the G5 by several orders of magnitude (and by extension also x86 CPUs younger than 2004)


Interesting, the URL is?

_________________
Dammy

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arix-OS/414578091930728
Unless otherwise noted, I only speak for myself.

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serk118 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 17:09:40
#399 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 25-Nov-2004
Posts: 672
From: London(uk)

@COBRA

Does OS4 have more developers than Aros/mos since same principle applies?

_________________
http://aros-exec.org/

http://serk118.blogspot.com/

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Mr_DBUG 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 18-Apr-2011 17:11:53
#400 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Dec-2005
Posts: 175
From: South of Oslo

Lets let X1000 be released first, with OS4.x and then complain ..

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