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      /  Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 14-Apr-2011 22:08:52
#41 ]
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Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 2938
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@ikir

Quote:
Bah get a Sam, it is awesome awesome awesome and it is real and available now. Best Amiga thing aver bought.


It needs sound though (460). I wouldn't consider buying one without.

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Rob 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 1:32:22
#42 ]
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Joined: 20-Mar-2003
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From: S.Wales

@damocles

Dave probably views AROS in the same light as MorphOS.

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cheesegrate 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 5:40:45
#43 ]
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From: Australia

@-Sam-

I'd be very suprised if hyperion is working on sam460 support. It would divert resources from x1000 drivers.

Last edited by cheesegrate on 15-Apr-2011 at 05:42 AM.

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Mr_DBUG 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 5:42:53
#44 ]
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Joined: 12-Dec-2005
Posts: 175
From: South of Oslo

Dont diss Dave !


And about NatAmi, due to the FPGA aspect it is innovative !

Reconfigurable FPGA computing is possibly a new frontier.
But Im not dissing X1000, it has its niche as well. And the transputer is also innovative. Just so expensive !!

Due to all these things IT IS essential with coordination among the platforms !

Making the AROS x86 etc the affordable end, the FPGAs the classic hw-emu line,
the X1000 and Sams the OS4 line for the people who want to pay for them.

And Id like MorphOS running on as much of them as well !

Apps should be easily buildable and coordinated between AROS / AmigaOS4 and MorphOS.

While the FPGA computers is the classic hardware emulation machines and possibly NatAmi the classic evolution.

Well. Night...

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Varthall 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 5:50:39
#45 ]
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Joined: 17-Feb-2004
Posts: 1546
From: Up Rough

@clebin

Quote:

clebin wrote:
@Varthall

No evidence = probably? And every scrap of evidence points to the opposite being true!

Yes, when there is no evidence, personal opinions are used. What evidence do you have for the opposite?

Varthall

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 6:37:48
#46 ]
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10677
From: Norway

@Mr_DBUG

FPGA'S do not emulate, when you program the FPGA, you change the connection pattern between transistor gates, so what it does is form a new circuit inside the chip.

Emulation is some thing different its technique to make one type of processor act as an other type of processor, by running program code that translates its machine code, JIT does it for chunk of machine codes, interpreted emulation does for one instruction at the time so its slower.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Apr-2011 at 06:39 AM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 6:49:32
#47 ]
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Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10677
From: Norway

@-Sam-

If you already have pci sound card or if you can get sound card from friend there is no problem.

Just make shore its a combo card or is compatible whit the voltage.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 15-Apr-2011 at 06:50 AM.

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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 9:36:57
#48 ]
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Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 2938
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@cheesegrate

Quote:
I'd be very suprised if hyperion is working on sam460 support. It would divert resources from x1000 drivers.


To be fair - we don't know that at all. I can see the Friedens being annoyed yet again by the unknown inaccuracy of this statement - and I can certainly understand why.

I didn't realise that sound isn't an issue - as you can just add a simple PCI sound card. (Even though I asked a few days earlier - I forgot - sorry)

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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 9:41:10
#49 ]
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Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 2938
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
If you already have pci sound card or if you can get sound card from friend there is no problem.


Of course! Duh - what with reading the review - it sounded like sound wasn't working and there was no option at all.

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cha05e90 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 10:24:43
#50 ]
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Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1252
From: Germany

I found it interesting that Dave in the original posting wrote about "hackability" of the hardware - and he assumed the NatAmi due to it's FPGA design as something nice Amiga-like "hackable" toy.

Did he know about the XMOS stuff in the X1000 design? Maybe not. Further Max (ACube) has released the kernel module for access to the SAM's I2C bus (incl. SDK additions), see here: http://www.os4depot.net/?function=showfile&file=driver/misc/i2c.resource.lha

So someone might see some nice "hackability" in both systems as well...

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 10:31:29
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@All
It is clear that Haynie sees Amiga as solely being custom chip-sets (probably because that's what he did) while Carl Sassenrath might be more prone at considering the OS part too.
The problem for Haynie is that he fails to understand that you don't do things the "complicated" way for the sake of it, you do it when that complicated way allows you to achieve things not possible earlier, assuming you do it in time!
That was the spirit of what JMiner was creating in 1983, but it didn't end up being what Haynie did sadly. Both AGA and AAA were too little too late (with the latter being soo late it actually never saw the light of day).
What next?
He stated PA-Risc was never meant to be the CPU of the next generation Amiga (it was there as part of Hombre' graphics subsystem and not as a CPU) as things evolved it seems quite clear that PPC was the only option as a CPU and that the Hombre Sub-System could have been used as a Graphic card (on a modular system, NO fixed chipsets anymore) using his "Acutiator" system architecture, but it is also clear that at the speed things were moving, that GFX slot (in a potential NG Amiga) would have been soon fitted with a competitor's graphics solution as there was at least 1 new GFX card coming out in those days, every 3 months! (ie:the evolution speed of those things was impossible to cope with, the world had changed forever).

That IF they finished "something" in time, however nor AAA nor Hombre were ever close to completion (the latter in particular was almost at vaporware early stage) when competitor's solutions were already coming out steadily, so, in the end, Haynie's doings would have been ditched for something made at ATI or Nvidia (too far ahead very soon), all on a modular system featuring a PPC CPU...(sounds familiar?).
Indeed for Demo sceners that loved to program the way they used to on classic Amigas Natami is the way to go (I hope it will offer something for me too, read second part) but for those that were using Amiga as their personal computer (not gaming console-not demo scene) that bought expansion cards and were using it "sans chip-set" for years, the solution is to be found elsewhere.

This second crowd wants to replace their home PC with an Amiga system that while not bowing to Wintel doesn't force you to renounce to anything (more or less).
We are still far from it of course but that's the goal.


As for Natami: I love Natami!

The only hurdle I see in for it, is that it will have to prove itself as being something "more" than an Amiga compatible HW, specially if it will cost 800 eur as I've heard. For something more I mean the actual availability of software and games that truly take advantage of its "new stuff", simply being able to run legacy software won't be enough as that side of the road is very crowded with cheaper solutions.
Without mentioning eventual MiniMigAGA or ArcadeFGAs, it is sufficient to mention THIS coupled with THIS and for only 248 I'm all set for retro-compatibility (and I could use my original floppies too, something I heard in a Natami's forum thread, could be problematic to implement, so much so that some suggested to ditch support).

Of course if the natami guys (and demo scene programmers) do contact artist at Pixeljoint and start creating awesome games featuring pixel art, that would not only give classic lovers more of what they love (done with new advanced modes and effects of course) but also make a dent in the global 2D gaming dimension. which between retro-gamers and modern 2D gamers, it VERY vast (bigger than Amiga communiy even if you join all flavors, Classic+NG, together).

Fingers crossed on my part...

Last edited by DAX on 15-Apr-2011 at 10:33 AM.

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clebin 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 10:47:49
#52 ]
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Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Cardiff

@Varthall

Quote:
Yes, when there is no evidence, personal opinions are used. What evidence do you have for the opposite?


Market-share, sales-figures from quarter to quarter, customer approval ratings, application updates, press reports and reviews, reading Mac forums for the past 10 years, working in a Mac environment... Do you want to believe the MacIntel transition was painful in order to validate some other idea, maybe something to do with Amiga?

Chris

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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 12:11:35
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 2938
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@DAX

Quote:
The problem for Haynie is that he fails to understand that you don't do things the "complicated" way for the sake of it,


To be fair I don't personally think that is how Dave Haynie views things - but I'll let him answer that if he feels he needs to over on Amga.org. However I do agree with the fact that after the original A chipset from the Amiga team nothing - AA - AAA - nothing lived up to that first release.

The OCS was revolutionary - nothing after that raised the bar. AA was a disappointment - it should have be released much earlier (as I think Dave said - it could have come out in 1989).

Yes - Natami is the most 'Amiga like system' but you cannot stage a comeback from this. Running ye olde 3.9 and possibly some variant of x86 AROS? A cool toy - but nothing more. Sorry - not trying to demean Natami here as it is a decent sounding system but it isn't what I would use as a base to try and rebuild a market.

The whole point of the original Amiga was to be unquestionably the best. To do that now would require you to be 'better' than the very best NVidia and AMD GFX cards out there - not very likely.

But if you wanted to form some sort of logical strengthening of the market then you build from component 'boring' standard parts and hope you build enough decent software to rebuild a market. I'm not talking about something unrealistic like a 'come-back' but it may be possible to build a sustainable market still. You would love to rebuild a cutting edge graphics system again - but it is not realistic so the best you can do - at this stage - is to introduce something like the XMOS.

The X1000 is not the second coming of the A1000 just as AA wasn't the second coming of the A chipset - but it is the best possible version that resources allow.

OS4 needs apps and it needs them badly. It also needs to ensure that it's performance on systems such as the SAM is flawless - i.e. fast, usable and easy to setup/maintain. As Hyperion I wouldn't be happy with the recent SAM460 review from
mpiva - http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=33544&forum=2#609996 and I would be racing to ensure those issues raised were resolved.

Last edited by -Sam- on 15-Apr-2011 at 12:16 PM.
Last edited by -Sam- on 15-Apr-2011 at 12:15 PM.
Last edited by -Sam- on 15-Apr-2011 at 12:14 PM.
Last edited by -Sam- on 15-Apr-2011 at 12:12 PM.

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opi 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 12:14:01
#54 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@clebin

Quote:
Do you want to believe the MacIntel transition was painful in order to validate some other idea, maybe something to do with Amiga?


Mac transition from PowerPC to Intel was amazingly easy. I assumed they will suffer for it but thanks to complete lack of regard for customer from Jobs (it's a good thing, you want keep your PPC Mac? Fine, consider yourself EOLed) and Rosetta PPC to x86 JIT did smooth the transition. I don't know any Mac user today that would long for PPC Macs.

Remember PPC as cooprocesor, kernel wars? That's how Amiga switched from M68k.

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OlafS25 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 12:59:44
#55 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5078
From: Unknown

@-Sam-

i hope there doesn´t start the typical war (my platform is better/faster/more software than your platform discussion). From Marketing view i would say it is good to have product that is clearly differentiating from competition. In my personal view that is obvious for f.e. the Natami, that is not the case (at least not as obvious) for Aros and AmigaOS 4. But Aros has the advantage to be opensource and running on cheap standard hardware. When you want to try AmigaOS you have to invest a big sum and it is not really differentiating from other platforms.

Or how would you describe the unique selling points of AmigaOS compared to other platforms (Aros, Natami (Classic), Windows, MacOS...). Where is it better? I didn´t read anything about that up to now. When there is no real answer the platform has a (marketing) problem

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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 13:13:07
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 2938
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@OlafS25

Quote:
i hope there doesn´t start the typical war (my platform is better/faster/more software than your platform discussion).


So do I as that isn't the intention.

I don't think any of the Amiga or Amiga-like platforms have a rich enough application base. I am just highlighting the (albeit already obvious) problem.

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 13:17:58
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@-Sam-
To put it differently: you decide the next Amiga won't have the chipset "fixed" on the mobo but it will be modular instead (see C= Defcon 93 papers) the OS guys want to drive GFX and sound acceleration stuff, so new designs have to be made to fill the dedicated slots of the modular motherboard. You ask a team to develop them for you, but they are late and third parties come in saying "Oh, I'll fill those for you, and my stuff is ready, cheaper and more powerful, what do you say?".
You say "yes please" and move on.

I assume Dave had the best possible intentions back then, but unfortunately they didn't result in anything that did the original OCS (in terms of being "ahead") any justice. As I said, too little too late in the best case scenario (nothing at all in the worst).

What amazes me is his comment in 2011.
The reason the X1000 uses PCI-E 16X with possibly a Radeon-4890, isn't because though tempted by AAAAA A-Eon chose otherwise, but simply because the world has changed and NO-ONE even with billions can compete with the likes of ATI and Nvidia.

Even Sony or MS uber consoles use Nvidia and ATI stuff nowadays (consoles used to have custom chipsets too) simply because the world has changed.


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OlafS25 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 13:24:24
#58 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5078
From: Unknown

@-Sam-

i am working in sales and it is always the same ... when a potential customer asks you why he/she should buy the product you must be able to answer this question by a few sentences. Or the customers must have a chance to try your product. Or you must have a factsheet that is showing the (technical) facts and where your product has advantages. If there is none and customers have no chance to try it out because they have to buy new expensive hardware you have a serious sale problem. It would have been better if Hyperion had used X86 and Standard Hardware instead of trying to copy the Apple concept. Propably they can´t change anymore at this point.

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 13:29:16
#59 ]
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Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@OlafS25
But you are treating the X1000 as a mainstream machine, on the other hand the system is targeted at well informed people (ie: hardcore users) which won't ask that question.
If they can manage to deliver a good platform to this niche (with appropriate improvements in the software department) then who knows, they might come out with something "after" the X1000. Something that might appeal at a broader Amiga audience (it won't be mainstream even then let's be clear).

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vidarh 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 13:40:00
#60 ]
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Joined: 4-Jan-2010
Posts: 580
From: London, UK (ex-pat; originally from Norway)

@-Sam-

Quote:
Yes - Natami is the most 'Amiga like system' but you cannot stage a comeback from this. Running ye olde 3.9 and possibly some variant of x86 AROS? A cool toy - but nothing more. Sorry - not trying to demean Natami here as it is a decent sounding system but it isn't what I would use as a base to try and rebuild a market.


Not even most Natami team members would claim that it would be a suitable base to rebuild the Amiga-market. Maybe a few rabid fanboys on their forums would.

But they don't need that. Natami will be a fun niche product, and it could very well significantly revitalize the classic Amiga niche - after all it won't take much. Even a few hundred sold would be a massive shot in the arm for the classic scene. Heck, even a dozen or two in the hands of dedicated developers would make a difference.

I'm guessing Haynie sees it from a similar position. If you don't see *any* Amiga like machine or OS as sufficient to become more than a toy, then Natami is pretty much the coolest Amiga-like toy on the way. The FPGA "Amiga's" safeguard the classic scene from hardware death - it'll always be possible to make more of them, and it'll get cheaper and cheaper to build faster and faster system.

But if you want an alternative for your day to day computing uses, on the other hand, it's a very different calculation and X1000 becomes much more interesting.

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