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      /  Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
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eXec 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 19-Apr-2011 19:58:02
#501 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@Rob

Quote:

Rob wrote:
@eXec

Quote:
But if I say in one of the related topics it is overpriced, out of date, discontinued and get harsh comments from certain ppc s-creamers , i do feel like the one in the middle


People get pi$$ed off because you are pointing out the blatantly obvious, and doing it over and over again. It does get tiresome, it doesn't add value to a thread and it's not going to change Hyperion's current CPU policy.


well, here is constantly for the past few years only debate about dejavues from the past.
"this was good, that was good, what if this was like that, what if this was not like that"?
And when mentioning any new possible upgrade, always is chosen the discontinued one.
Why?

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number6 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 19-Apr-2011 20:05:09
#502 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9889
From: In the village

@eXec

I'll refer you to my post #64...again.

#6

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Jupp3 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 19-Apr-2011 20:07:59
#503 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1202
From: Unknown

@Fab

Quote:
Quote:
as you know MuiOWB from Fab is being ported and FF4.0 too (the latter even features WebGL) so feel confindent the web is covered.


Just as a precision, WebKit itself supports WebGL since 2009 or so. Enabling it in OWB would be possible, if the underlying GL layer offered all the needed bits (which it doesn't currently).

You are forgetting that full OpenGL support (including shaders) has been coming for AmigaOS4 really soon for years already, so even that is covered.

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ferrels 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 19-Apr-2011 20:15:55
#504 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 688
From: Arizona

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@ferrels

Quote:
Stop living in a fantasy land where you think that Amiga will regain a share of any market other than the hobbyist market


What is wrong with living in a fantasy land? I like our own world of Amiga wonders, where anything is possible if you wait "two more weeks".


Nothing at all, but you are one of the few here who understand that there's a difference between the real world and fantasy. There are more than a few on here who are delusional and really believe that the X1000 is going to compete with PCs in the office and in the home. They need to get their medications refilled and re-start their therapy sessions.

Last edited by ferrels on 19-Apr-2011 at 08:17 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 19-Apr-2011 20:48:06
#505 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10736
From: Norway

@ferrels

That depends on what you use your PC for, for example if you only use it to read a simple CSS based news site, that the AmigaOS4 will do that, if you only use your PC for photo editing then AmigaOS4 will do that too, if you only use your PC as MP3 player AmigaOS4 will do that too, and if you only use your PC for playing movies, then AmigaOS4 will do that too,

My personal needs are not covered, but some one else might be, who am I to judge what people need there computer for.

Also note that AmigaOne X1000 as office computer might easily be covered by RemoteDesktop & Terminal server .

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 20-Apr-2011 at 09:58 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 19-Apr-2011 at 10:29 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 19-Apr-2011 at 10:28 PM.

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cha05e90 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 19-Apr-2011 21:20:24
#506 ]
Super Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2009
Posts: 1256
From: Germany

@ferrels
Quote:
compete with PCs in the office and in the home.

It depends on your personal preferences and use cases. Believe it or not, all my Amigas (incl. Pegasos and SAMs) won that competition against the standard PC I own(ed). This is btw the reason I "used" a Pentium III Windows XP notebook 'til 2009 - now I have an Atom netbook. Sufficient for the only real world use case I have for this - it's one application for my income tax, which doesn't exist in the Amiga world. That's it. And, no, I don't need medication, I don't even drink alcohol.

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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 19-Apr-2011 23:32:38
#507 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 2941
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@cha05e90

Quote:
That's it. And, no, I don't need medication, I don't even drink alcohol.


I don't think that is what ferrels is getting at. He means that the X1000 won't take over and compete against the PC and Windows in the mainstream.

He's right - it won't. It's just for our little niche - but that is a given.

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wawa 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 0:07:31
#508 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 5726
From: Unknown

@-Sam-

might be (posting from ff4 on wxp). though, if it would appear i should reconsider my options. otherwise i return to a4k /aros68k perspective.

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bison 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 1:09:04
#509 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 864
From: N-Space

@pavlor

Quote:
I think X2000 with future Intel CPU would be more reasonable solution.

I prefer to say "with future x86 CPU," being the AMD fan that I am.

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Hammer 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 1:59:58
#510 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Mar-2003
Posts: 3925
From: Australia

@DAX

Quote:

DAX wrote:
@eXec
I don't think it will be that far (64 core CPUs won't come out that early ) and you should also consider if the Amiga system you have gives you enough power. If you can do everyting you generally do with a computer, at VERY fast speeds, then you're all set, even an X1000 could be enough considering further boosts could come from OpenCL and other forms of acceleration.

AMD Terramar is a 20 core “Bulldozer” CPU. Planned for introduction: 2012

Intel 'Knights Corner' (recycled Larrabee) is supposed to be a 50-core X86 based chip...

Last edited by Hammer on 20-Apr-2011 at 02:15 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 20-Apr-2011 at 02:08 AM.

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Amigo1 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 5:06:39
#511 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1388
From: Cork Ireland

@cha05e90

Quote:

cha05e90 wrote:
@ferrels
Quote:
compete with PCs in the office and in the home.

It depends on your personal preferences and use cases. Believe it or not, all my Amigas (incl. Pegasos and SAMs) won that competition against the standard PC I own(ed). This is btw the reason I "used" a Pentium III Windows XP notebook 'til 2009 - now I have an Atom netbook. Sufficient for the only real world use case I have for this - it's one application for my income tax, which doesn't exist in the Amiga world. That's it. And, no, I don't need medication, I don't even drink alcohol.


you make use of drugs then! There has to be something!

Jokes aside, I agree. It's similar here too, except I use Macs and rarely WinXP on VMWare for my old mobile phone software which does not work on 7.

And adding to, even talking about office use it depends on what your needs are. A friend of mine owns 4 stores (www.s) and everything he needs is on an old Windows98 monster box.
I had a look at it and it would be totally interchangeable with e.g. a Sam440. Indeed he is very sympathetic to the idea of buying one as soon as the noisy and power-hungry box gives its last..cycle.

Last edited by Amigo1 on 20-Apr-2011 at 05:12 AM.
Last edited by Amigo1 on 20-Apr-2011 at 05:10 AM.
Last edited by Amigo1 on 20-Apr-2011 at 05:09 AM.

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KingKong 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 5:07:54
#512 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Oct-2006
Posts: 95
From: Germany

@Leo

Certainly a (not programmable) CPU works regardless of the OS but a efficient OS can speed things up because of
- smart code (better algorithems)
- less working code (for a task, at a time slot) and therefore more code in CPU-cache.

It obviously can have a tremendous effect if your programm needs fully loaded (DLLs, etc.) only 10 MB instead of 50 MB for (nearly) exactly the same tasks.

Even a filesystem can make a relative big difference since today you have lots of RAM and flash memory. A good OS can speed up video encoding - not to mention that you can parallel browse the internet without (comparatively) delay or gaps in response (using the internet app).

I don't know exact numbers but maybe AmigaOS can do (in the future) everything what MSwindows does with only 20% of the installed code amount and surely this will have some effect on speed and power consumption.

Well, so far my optimistic hopes - the X1000 has to prove what AmigaOS can do but the big point is: it's not only what AmigaOS can do already now ... it's what AmigaOS could do in 5 years with lots of money behind (my vision: Germany or the EU funds massiv decelopment with hundreds of millions Euro per annum).

The EU spends billions (10^9) Euros for MS and Intel so it makes big sense to develop an own OS. Think of all the saved money in industry, military, science, office and homecomputing when there is a good (bugfree, fast, small, real time capable) OS for everything and everyone.

It's not so that MSwindows and Linux are perfect and unbeatable - Amiga can do better.

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Jupp3 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 6:04:58
#513 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1202
From: Unknown

@KingKong

Quote:
It obviously can have a tremendous effect if your programm needs fully loaded (DLLs, etc.) only 10 MB instead of 50 MB for (nearly) exactly the same tasks.


ok, so for windows, we would have task taking 1GB with 50MB overhead, and on Amiga port, 1GB with 10MB overhead. Big deal.

Of course you cannot directly compare smaller "more efficient" Amiga programs (like, say, YAM) to fully featured alternatives (Thunderbird). No-one cares if they use less resources, if they are otherwise unusable.

Quote:
Even a filesystem can make a relative big difference

Very true. So let's wait if we will get a good one (by modern standards) for Amiga like operating systems some day.

Quote:
I don't know exact numbers but maybe AmigaOS can do (in the future) everything what MSwindows does with only 20% of the installed code amount and surely this will have some effect on speed and power consumption.

No-one cares if same code could run 20% faster. They just buy 2x faster computer (for cheaper than X1000, mind you) and be done with it.

Quote:
The EU spends billions (10^9) Euros for MS and Intel so it makes big sense to develop an own OS. Think of all the saved money in industry, military, science, office and homecomputing when there is a good (bugfree, fast, small, real time capable) OS for everything and everyone.

That's very true. And I can see 2 realistic solutions to this:
1)Keep investing in Linux. Already a proven OS. No ownership issues.
2)Take some already existing OS that's (almost) good enough. F.ex. QNX might be one choice.
3)Develop "own OS" from scratch. Make sure there are no issues with ownership etc. Make sure there are no nasty license fees involved.

Unrealistic solutions:
4)Invest in AmigaOS. Do significant code changes so that end result will be more work than (3), lose all Amiga compatibility (which mainstream doesn't care about anyway) but still end up having to pay license fees etc.

Quote:
It's not so that MSwindows and Linux are perfect and unbeatable - Amiga can do better.

Whatever you say. The problem is, a "written from scratch" OS could do way better than all choices mentioned, and might actually be easier than "modifying AmigaOS into modern enough OS"

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Rassilon 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 6:26:37
#514 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 540
From: Office desk, Wandsworth, London, UK

@Antique

heheh small world. I have not been posting for some time (years?) but always reading

Lewis

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Rassilon 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 6:28:53
#515 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 540
From: Office desk, Wandsworth, London, UK

@damocles

Quote:

damocles wrote:
@Rassilon

Quote:
A lot of us see the home user market as targets for the X1000 in some sense, and that is why I mentioned browsing, mp3s, video playback as requirements as you average joe is going to want to do most of that- I believe the X1000 could do those without problem.


The problem is the average Joe is not going to be spending north of 1,500 GBPs to do web browsing. iPad2 for 399 GBP, OTOH, I can see for home browsing.


You're 100% right, but we (pardun the pun) have to keep the momentum going some how until hardware of a sufficient lower price can be brought out in a profitable manner.

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Rassilon 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 6:32:45
#516 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 540
From: Office desk, Wandsworth, London, UK

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote:
@Rassilon
Stop being delusional about ANY Amiga competing with systems in the home PC market. And the X1000 nor the SAM nor any other Amiga offer anything that other platform users want but can't find in their PC. Stop living in a fantasy land where you think that Amiga will regain a share of any market other than the hobbyist market


I am under no illusions that OS4 is going to be bigger than Windows this time next year or indeed any other. Just that IF Hyperion / A-EON want to compete they need to focus on swiftly bringing a product to market that can meet their target market.

I as said earlier in the thread its about two elements - affordable hardware and complete software. Without both we don't stand a chance.

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KingKong 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 6:47:33
#517 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Oct-2006
Posts: 95
From: Germany

@Jupp3

If the CPU cache strategy distinguishs between program code and data, less code can make a difference even if you process gigabytes of data.

A new OS isn't so easy to do. AmigaOS is a good base because you have something that already is quite usable and can be improved well.

Linux is the obvious option if the Amiga rights are not available but Germany needs only something the USA wants (for example the Transrapid) and a way will be found. How much paid Hyperion Entertainment for the AmigaOS 4 rights? Can't be so much. Germany (or the EU) needs no exclusive rights of the old stuff (other can use it too), so it can't be so expensive. Maybe a cheque of 10 million Euro will do the trick (one must consider that no one else will pay much because of the horrendous costs to devolop AmigaOS).

Obviously there must be a cooperation with Hyperion Entertainment so they can be in the same boat (if they want to).

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Massi 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 8:34:09
#518 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 516
From: Rome, Italy

It is certainly difficult for Amiga to compete with giants like Micro$oft and Apple.

Anyway what we have now, both hardware and software, are at a very good level, especially AmigaOS 4.x has many advanced and still unique features.

I believe we need good applications to cover all people needs and we also need to attract new software houses / developers / users to the platform.

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 9:54:44
#519 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Hammer
great stuff.
However we were more like talking about 50 (64) sandy bridge cores. CPUs with "that many" won't be out very soon

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damocles 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 11:05:09
#520 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@Rassilon

Quote:
You're 100% right, but we (pardun the pun) have to keep the momentum going some how until hardware of a sufficient lower price can be brought out in a profitable manner.


Why bother when there is AROS? There is no significant or economically viable niche market for OS4. If you say x86, what advantages will it have, once it's ported, over running AROS?

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