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      /  Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
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damocles 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 12:11:17
#521 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@KingKong

Quote:
A new OS isn't so easy to do. AmigaOS is a good base because you have something that already is quite usable and can be improved well.


Why would Germany buy something when it's available for free? There is BSD, there is Linux, and there is AROS. All three run on cheap x86 hardware and AROS will eventually be fully ARM native (right now it's just runs hosted on ARM Linux). Why would Germany or any other country want to chain itself to a dead end arch and pay for a OS that is decade or more behind modern OSs?



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https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arix-OS/414578091930728
Unless otherwise noted, I only speak for myself.

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Jupp3 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 12:27:04
#522 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1202
From: Unknown

@KingKong

Quote:
If the CPU cache strategy distinguishs between program code and data, less code can make a difference even if you process gigabytes of data.

Porting a big application (let's take some relatively easy but big port, such as Firefox for example) to AmigaOS doesn't automatically reduce its amount of code...

Quote:
A new OS isn't so easy to do. AmigaOS is a good base because you have something that already is quite usable and can be improved well.

Sounds like you seriously underestimate the amount of work needed for "making AmigaOS competitive", and also overestimate amount of work needed for new OS, compared to "totally redesigning existing one"

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Rassilon 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 12:32:36
#523 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 540
From: Office desk, Wandsworth, London, UK

@damocles

Quote:

damocles wrote:
@Rassilon

Quote:
You're 100% right, but we (pardun the pun) have to keep the momentum going some how until hardware of a sufficient lower price can be brought out in a profitable manner.


Why bother when there is AROS? There is no significant or economically viable niche market for OS4. If you say x86, what advantages will it have, once it's ported, over running AROS?


Why bother? Well having used AROS it is not there yet. As for cost, well we all have a ceiling on what we are prepared to pay. So will want it gratis, others are willing to pay a bit, and some a bit more

Lewis

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damocles 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 12:41:36
#524 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@Rassilon

Quote:
Why bother? Well having used AROS it is not there yet.


How long ago and which distro/version?

Quote:
As for cost, well we all have a ceiling on what we are prepared to pay. So will want it gratis, others are willing to pay a bit, and some a bit more


Few hundred sales is not going to save anything. If you are not replacing those who leave with more new people buying OS4 products, that is a death spiral.

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https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arix-OS/414578091930728
Unless otherwise noted, I only speak for myself.

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KingKong 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 12:51:53
#525 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Oct-2006
Posts: 95
From: Germany

@damocles

The Amiga rights (patents, ...) may be quite cheap because there is (except for the name) no need to buy them exclusivly. Germany (likely in cooperation with Hyperion Entertainment and the existing Amiga community) needs only all data and rights to develop and use AmigaOS unlimited. Germany has only to buy some stuff possibly left in USA and finance the further development of AmigaOS with a few hundered millions. The aim is a highly secure, stable, fast, real time capable, prime OS as replacement for MSwindows/Linux - cheap for all (how about 25 Euro with everything you typical need included) and suitable for military and industry use.

AmigaOS is no dead end - Intel and MSwindows more likely are. Admittedly someone must convince Germany (or the EU) that AmigaOS can be a better choice than Linux and I can't do this because I don't know enough of these operating systems.

The question is not: could it be? The question is: why hasn't it already happen?

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opi 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 13:05:05
#526 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@KingKong

Quote:
I don't know enough of these operating systems


You should stop discussing them.

Quote:
why hasn't it already happen?


It has been explained to you from every angle (business, technological, viability) and you can't grasp it because you don't know enough.

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Mechanic 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 13:27:09
#527 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@damocles

Quote:

damocles wrote:

Why bother when there is AROS? There is no significant or economically viable niche market for OS4. If you say x86, what advantages will it have, once it's ported, over running AROS?


That would be up to the individual. Not everybody thinks the same, nor wants the same things.

As far as porting to x86. To me, and this is just me, that would be fine. As long as it was a selected motherboard(s) either produced in-house or under agreement with some OEM.

As you said, there is no advantage over AROS if it runs on the same hardware with the same
advantages and same limitations.

I suppose an argument could be made that with UAE and Amiga Forever there is no need for
Natami. That argument is just not going to work, and good for the Natami people. I hope they
come up with some fantastic stuff that can only work on their hardware/software.

I want an X1000 running OS4, and I don't really care if it is not going to take over the world.


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pavlor 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 13:28:06
#528 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8415
From: Unknown

@damocles

Quote:
Why bother when there is AROS? There is no significant or economically viable niche market for OS4. If you say x86, what advantages will it have, once it's ported, over running AROS?


Why bother when there is Haiku?

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Spectre660 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 13:30:32
#529 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3560
From: Unknown

Everyone relax and look at the world wide OS market share numbers.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8

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Rassilon 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 13:52:46
#530 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 540
From: Office desk, Wandsworth, London, UK

@damocles

I actually tried a distro earlier this year. Can't recall its name. It was good just not all there yet in my opinion.

The question you have to ask yourself (or not - take it or leave it) is why do any of use use the computer systems we do? For many it is a matter of need (why I jumped to Macs) but for others it is a matter of affinity - they like using OS4 / MorphOS / AROS.

It is then only natural that they want the best for and from their systems - which then in this case is presented in the form of the X1000 and OS4.

Lewis

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Jupp3 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 14:16:33
#531 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1202
From: Unknown

@KingKong

Quote:
Admittedly someone must convince Germany (or the EU) that AmigaOS can be a better choice than Linux and I can't do this because I don't know enough of these operating systems.

No, you got it wrong way around.

For someone to be able to claim AmigaOS being better than (f.ex.) Linux, he must know absolutely nothing about computers in general. (Or resort to lies.)

But then again, most of the computer-related decisions are done by people who don't know anything about them anyway, so maybe after all you are right, and there is a chance

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 14:34:34
#532 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@All
The idea of selected x86 motherboards or even custom made ones, came about earlier too, but looking at Apple, makes me think Amiga prices would be at least a tad worst than them, which would relegate Amiga in the ususal price range.
Powerful PPC processor will come from free scale AFTER the 50x0 series (please don't mention that one or earlier models anymore as they make no sense for a 2014/15 computer) and will be better priced because of the incoming competition Freescale will have to face from intel.
Thus if all goes well we will have an X2000 which will be better priced and more powerful (also better "utilized" thanks to the advancements that will mature on the X1000).

And that's all there is folks, AmigaOS is on PPC right here right now (we don't need to port it there) and I'd rather see Hyperion spend their development time in adding features to it instead of embarking in another paralizing "porting effort", we already had those moments, it's time to move ahead (SW wise).

_________________
SamFlex Complete 800Mhz System + AmigaOS 4.1 Update 4
Amiga 2000 DKB 2MB ChipRam GVP G-Force040 Picasso 2 OS3.9 BB2
AmigaCD 32

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KingKong 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 14:39:21
#533 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Oct-2006
Posts: 95
From: Germany

@Jupp3

Whatever. It's very simple:

1. It's obviously a good idea that Germany and the EU develop an own OS.

2. If there are some real capable Amiga freaks left, they better get their ass up and try to convince Germany to spend many millions in the development of AmigaOS.

3. Linux freaks and any other OS fanatics can do as well - may the OS with the best future (the OS which can be developted best to an ideal) win.

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Mechanic 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 16:20:48
#534 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@DAX

Quote:

DAX wrote:
AmigaOS is on PPC right here right now (we don't need to port it there) and I'd rather see Hyperion spend their development time in adding features to it instead of embarking in another paralizing "porting effort", we already had those moments, it's time to move ahead (SW wise).



+ Yup!

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Mechanic 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 16:41:55
#535 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@Jupp3

Quote:

Jupp3 wrote:

No, you got it wrong way around.

For someone to be able to claim AmigaOS being better than (f.ex.) Linux, he must know absolutely nothing about computers in general. (Or resort to lies.)


I certainly would not like to see AmigaOS tied into any politics. Phoo-Yuk.

However, for my purposes - - - -

No, you got it wrong way around.

AmigaOS is better than (f.ex.) Linux. And that's because I do know something about the way
computers work in general and how I want mine to work in particular.

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eXec 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 21:34:09
#536 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 21-Jun-2004
Posts: 954
From: Burkina Faso

@Mechanic

Quote:



AmigaOS is better than (f.ex.) Linux. And that's because I do know something about the way
computers work in general and how I want mine to work in particular.



And how do computers work? ;)


_________________
____
...administration is for serious people only....

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damocles 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 21:53:37
#537 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@Rassilon

Quote:
I actually tried a distro earlier this year. Can't recall its name. It was good just not all there yet in my opinion.


There is the standard ISO build, and then there are two different distros for AROS so your mileage may very between those three ISOs on personal likes and dislikes.

Quote:
The question you have to ask yourself (or not - take it or leave it) is why do any of use use the computer systems we do? For many it is a matter of need (why I jumped to Macs) but for others it is a matter of affinity - they like using OS4 / MorphOS / AROS.


Whatever floats your boat is the one you should be using. My point is the idea that OS4 is, all by itself, the only one that can compete with major OSs is not viable on many levels. That's completely ignoring AROS (native or hosted) on x86/x86/_64/PPC/ARM Linux hosted and MOS on used Macs. IMO, any government would chose FOSS over closed sourced just to escape from being entangled in future IP law suits.

Quote:
It is then only natural that they want the best for and from their systems - which then in this case is presented in the form of the X1000 and OS4.


I'm all for OS4 staying PPC for all of eternity. I do wonder what would happen to the PPC fanboys if OS4 was ported to x86 with eventual stagnation and withering of PPC software development being a forgone conclusion. Not that I would want that to happen, of course.


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Dammy

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Arix-OS/414578091930728
Unless otherwise noted, I only speak for myself.

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Arko 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 22:17:22
#538 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@KingKong

KingKong Message starts with an ">"




>1. It's obviously a good idea that Germany and the EU develop an own OS.

I don't think it will be a good idea, because Germany is no island, an OS only makes sense if you can use applications, an own OS would have no applications when started. Developing all the standard application ( Office packages, Data management systems, CAD, ... ) would cost more than developing the OS.

Oh, don't forget there are a lot of existing free and OpenSource OSes that are advanced compared with AmigaOS ( memory virtualisation, SMP, scaleabillity, support of more and better filesystems, support of massive paralell systems aka clustering, network support, user rights management, more than 2GB Ram, 64 bit addressspace, support of different hardware and CPU platforms, Unicode )

>2. If there are some real capable Amiga freaks left, they better get their ass up and
>try to convince Germany to spend many millions in the development of AmigaOS.

Try, if you want to make fun of the last existing Amiga users.

>3. Linux freaks and any other OS fanatics can do as well - may the OS with
>the best future (the OS which can be developted best to an ideal) win.

Currently the AmigaOS users (every flavour) should try to find a way out of the stagnation without the need of an closed source OS making company. Getting out of stagnation does not mean they should ask their goverment for help, it means a plan b when their OS making company goes belly up.

Last edited by Arko on 20-Apr-2011 at 10:24 PM.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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Arko 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 22:21:40
#539 ]
Super Member
Joined: 17-Jan-2007
Posts: 1989
From: Unknown

@damocles

Quote:

damocles wrote:
@Fransexy

Quote:
Funny and ironic words from a men that designed the PIOS One (a mere PC with a PowerPC cpu) and wanted it to be the next gen AmigaOS compatible machine


No, it was a quad PPC CPU mobo and he and Andy were working CAOS which, IIRC, ended up in their Met@Box STB.



And what they did with the PIOS One should compete with Apple in performance per price ratio. Something ACube missed to do.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

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Mechanic 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 20-Apr-2011 23:16:09
#540 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Jul-2003
Posts: 2007
From: Unknown

@eXec
Quote:

eXec wrote:
@Mechanic

And how do computers work? ;)




Magic!

Inside those mostly black squarish things stuck on the motherboard is nothing
but Smoke and a Mirror.

Crack the mirror, or let the smoke out and the magic is gone.


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