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      /  Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 13:41:44
#61 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 2938
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@DAX

Quote:
The reason the X1000 uses PCI-E 16X with possibly a Radeon-4890, isn't because though tempted by AAAAA A-Eon chose otherwise, but simply because the world has changed and NO-ONE even with billions can compete with the likes of ATI and Nvidia.


You are entirely correct.

I am not actually disagreeing with you. I took him as saying that the X1000 isn't interesting to him but the NatAmi is. I understand why he would say that. But if you want to progress then the X1000 way (or the Sam 440/460 way) is the only game in town.

For instance to me - both the NatAmi and X1000 are interesting. But the X1000 (SAM included) is the best way forward if you want to grow a market. I'll ignore his comments about the NatAmi found romanticising about getting a custom chipset again - but if we temper it with reality this just isn't feasible.

I agree with you entirely except for your point abut DH's comments. I didn't take Dave's comments as saying that the X1000 isn't the best strategy - I don't think he's interested in any of that. I think he just simply meant that the NatAmi was more interesting to him - not taking business strategy or anything else into account as we both are.

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-Sam- 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 13:43:13
#62 ]
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Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 2938
From: Yorkshire Dales, United Knigdom

@vidarh

Quote:
But they don't need that. Natami will be a fun niche product, and it could very well significantly revitalize the classic Amiga niche - after all it won't take much. Even a few hundred sold would be a massive shot in the arm for the classic scene. Heck, even a dozen or two in the hands of dedicated developers would make a difference.


I completely agree with everything you say.

NatAmi will be a cool system to own and I can't wait to see it alive and functioning.

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OlafS25 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 13:44:07
#63 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5078
From: Unknown

@DAX

but i do not understand how it is differentiating from a comparable (much cheaper) PC build with standard components (except of course the OS and PowerPC). In Germany everyone (besides from hardcore amigians that already have a PowerPC-Amiga) will compare it with such systems that you can even buy in the supermarkets. There are some short reports about the X1000 in golem and heise and most comments there are negative. When you want to gain new users, it will be hard when Hyperion doesn´t change its strategy.

Here most users already have a computer (most PC, sometimes a Mac). When you just have to buy a new OS and install it on existing hardware, the chances would be much higher. The Natami will certainly not replace Windows or MacOS, but it is a platform that is really differentiating and could attract not only Amiga-Fans, but also people that search for something new.

Hyperion must offer a solution that is cheaper to start with. Or they must offer advantages over competing platforms.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 15-Apr-2011 at 01:47 PM.

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number6 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 13:48:28
#64 ]
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Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9802
From: In the village

@OlafS25

Quote:
i am working in sales and it is always the same ... when a potential customer asks you why he/she should buy the product you must be able to answer this question by a few sentences. Or the customers must have a chance to try your product. Or you must have a factsheet that is showing the (technical) facts and where your product has advantages. If there is none and customers have no chance to try it out because they have to buy new expensive hardware you have a serious sale problem. It would have been better if Hyperion had used X86 and Standard Hardware instead of trying to copy the Apple concept. Propably they can´t change anymore at this point.


None of the Amiga related products are being marketed outside of the small community which they serve. They are all well aware of the current status of their work, and this is a conscious choice.
X86 has little to do with choice. It has to do with legal issues.

#6

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Fransexy 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 13:52:05
#65 ]
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Joined: 8-Jun-2004
Posts: 2316
From: Elche (Alicante), spain

@OlafS25

Quote:
When you just have to buy a new OS and install it on existing hardware, the chances would be much higher.


Say that to Skyos, ecomstation, Beos....etc (and even Beos had a free version)

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 13:56:00
#66 ]
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Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1252
From: CRO

@number6

Quote:
X86 has little to do with choice. It has to do with legal issues.


You mean, It HAD to do with legal issues.... after the settlement I don't see any issues for Hyperion to port OS4 on any architecture they want. But they will not do it for some curious(to say the least) reasons, as evident by ben's amiwest speach.

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number6 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 13:58:18
#67 ]
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Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 9802
From: In the village

@WolfToTheMoon

Quote:
You mean, It HAD to do with legal issues


No disrespect intended, but don't believe everything you hear or read.

#6

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OlafS25 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 13:58:21
#68 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5078
From: Unknown

@Fransexy

as far as I know had Beos not much software. Why should you install a OS just to move the system windows. The same happened to OS/2. But what do you proof with that? That the chances are better when you have to invest 1000 ¤ for a new system instead of 150 ¤ for a new operating system and use existing hardware? The simpler and cheaper it is to start, the simpler it is to persuade customers.

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 14:01:20
#69 ]
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Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@OlafS25
I agree with number6, Aeon will only try to entice the hardcore followers at first. The 1992 ex-amigan commenting in a mainstream website at this point it's irrelevant. Those guys only played games on the thing and moved to PCs and Macs (the very first computers they actually used for work) after a short while. Let them buy their iPads.
On the other hand there was people also working on (or that learned their profession on) Amiga, they sticked to the platform till they could, buying expansion cards and OS updates (I know of a local studio doing film mountage for marrieges and so on, doing work on heavy loaded A4000s till 2007!) AmigaOS 3.9 solde more than 13.000 copies and it it is in the latter niche that Aeon will initially try to pull customers.

Last edited by DAX on 15-Apr-2011 at 02:02 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 14:10:38
#70 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5078
From: Unknown

@DAX

there will be different views (now and in future) and that is perfectly ok, because it is just a hobby for all of us. When the market is big enough for them to support development it is ok. But it will be very hard to create growth and attract new buyers.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 14:24:16
#71 ]
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Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1252
From: CRO

@OlafS25

BeOS userbase grew the most after the x86 port. And pretty much any alternative OS with ports on several CPU architectures has the most x86 users. It's a given. The argument against x86 was never a rational one.

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 14:35:55
#72 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@WolfToTheMoon
Don't mistake "anything" with Amiga though, identity and hate for Intel dodgy politics (see the recent case they lost involving Dell and AMD for just one of many examples) are part of the equation. If you can mange to offer a good experience without Intel in the mix, many will love you for that.
If you love intel so much however you have much to choose from so more power to you.
It's easy now to tell everyone "look at them WinMacs! full of modern facilities!" "if we don't have it it's because we are not on x86!"
Wrong.
Amiga has a troubled history where you can find all the answers as of why we lack this and that at the moment. Big joy comes every-time a missing piece of the puzzle comes to us though. Eventually the puzzle will be complete.

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DAX 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 14:39:47
#73 ]
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Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@OlafS25
if you ask me, I don't think we can aim at more than what OS3.9 did. That would be a pretty good goal.
Thinking to go against WinMacs at this point makes little sense (unless a trillionair comes in and say "let's spend a trillion to sell a Power7 based uber machine under $500!" )

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OlafS25 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 14:48:54
#74 ]
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Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5078
From: Unknown

@DAX

that would be good :)

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ferrels 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 14:55:03
#75 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 686
From: Arizona

@-Sam-

Quote:

-Sam- wrote:

I am not actually disagreeing with you. I took him as saying that the X1000 isn't interesting to him but the NatAmi is. I understand why he would say that. But if you want to progress then the X1000 way (or the Sam 440/460 way) is the only game in town.

For instance to me - both the NatAmi and X1000 are interesting. But the X1000 (SAM included) is the best way forward if you want to grow a market. I'll ignore his comments about the NatAmi found romanticising about getting a custom chipset again - but if we temper it with reality this just isn't feasible.



The X1000 is "progress" and "the only game in town? Well, it's 7 year old technology and is using a CPU that's been discontinued. That's not what anyone will call progressive.....and what town would that be? The world has only seen 1 or 2 running prototypes in the past 3 years and release dates keep shifting to later dates. I doubt if it'll ever reach the market.

But I agree that the SAM440/460 is the only game in town IF you're an OS4 fan. The Natami isn't targeted at PPC/OS4 fanboys. It's targeted at classic OS fans who wanted Amiga to stay in business and produce an Amiga 5000+.

As for "growing a market", that will never happen. The market for Amigas has long since ceased to be. It's now just a hobbyist scene and will remain so.

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Caveman 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 15:01:39
#76 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 16-Feb-2005
Posts: 655
From: Norway

@DAX

Quote:

DAX wrote:
Those guys only played games on the thing and moved to PCs and Macs (the very first computers they actually used for work) after a short while.


So what do you make out of this? What would be a sane marked to go for? Where can the brandname grow? Where to find the money to actually have money for further development of a product, in a pace fast enough, that the platform can be useful for normal use, and preferably also a market that can offer something others can not?

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Cool_amigaN 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 15:13:46
#77 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2006
Posts: 1163
From: Athens/Greece

@DAX

Quote:

DAX wrote:
@OlafS25
I agree with number6, Aeon will only try to entice the hardcore followers at first. The 1992 ex-amigan commenting in a mainstream website at this point it's irrelevant. Those guys only played games on the thing and moved to PCs and Macs (the very first computers they actually used for work) after a short while. Let them buy their iPads.
On the other hand there was people also working on (or that learned their profession on) Amiga, they sticked to the platform till they could, buying expansion cards and OS updates (I know of a local studio doing film mountage for marrieges and so on, doing work on heavy loaded A4000s till 2007!) AmigaOS 3.9 solde more than 13.000 copies and it it is in the latter niche that Aeon will initially try to pull customers.


Yeap, I fully agree, those ex-amigans don't know anything about computers. I just came across a guy that asked me for memory protection, USB 2.0, dual core support, 3GB Ram+, FPS rate on a 10 years old 3D game (QIII) and some other stuff. I told him the same: Go buy a x86 evil pc, an Ipad you little Apple slave! AOS4.x is so optimized that doesn't require ANY of the above.

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Lou 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 15:29:40
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3833
From: Rhode Island

A team member has announced in that same thread on A.org that he expects NATAMI to be ~500Euro.

With FPGA based machines, you can release one every 2 years that is twice as fast as the previous one for the same cost. That IS a platform with a future. With the X1000, it's being released with a discontinued processor already. That's not good.

Also, the cpu in the Natami is employing alot of modern techniques in a CISC cpu. It will initially run ~133Mhz but feel like a 500Mhz RISC cpu.

Games like Alien Breed 3D that run at 9fps on a real Amiga will run at >100fps on a Natami but only run at maybe 30fps on a SAM since you have faster memory but being hobbled by an emulation layer. (note: these are guestimates)

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cheesegrate 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 15:31:21
#79 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 30-Apr-2007
Posts: 259
From: Australia

@Cool_amigaN

yes these people need to be ostracised. When ex amigans tell me they want to use memory sticks or usb2 or shaders in games or flash i just laugh at them and shame them. this is not the os4 spirit traitor!

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clebin 
Re: Dave Haynie expresses thoughts on Natami and X1000
Posted on 15-Apr-2011 15:45:41
#80 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Oct-2003
Posts: 1680
From: Cardiff

@DAX

Quote:

Amiga has a troubled history where you can find all the answers as of why we lack this and that at the moment. Big joy comes every-time a missing piece of the puzzle comes to us though. Eventually the puzzle will be complete.


The puzzle will never be complete when Hyperion and A-Eon only care about its most fanatical support. You're dead without new customers.

Still you make condescending jibes at the mainstream, saying what sheep they are, how stupid people will buy anything marketed well, using fanboyish expressions like "WinMac", belittling a man like Dave Haynie who most of us aren't fit to tie the boot-laces of, telling ex-Amigans they're not wanted or needed and to "get an iPad" instead. It seems that there's no bridge some of you guys aren't willing to burn.

Chris

EDITed to be less of a wind-bag...

Last edited by clebin on 15-Apr-2011 at 04:02 PM.
Last edited by clebin on 15-Apr-2011 at 04:01 PM.

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