@olegil

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olegil wrote: @Lou A barrel of oil blown up at a distance of a few km through bedrock would cause as much vertigo as a quake of magnitude 3.3, which is to say absolutely none. It's just 6 gigajoules, after all. Why you would drag a quake of magnitude 5.8 (around 25 terajoules, equivalent to about 5kT TNT (about half of Little Boy) transmitted through bedrock) into that comparison I do not know. Next you'll be saying that being hit with plastic forks is dangerous because your grandmother was once run over by a bus carrying people to a picnic (allthough I recognise that the difference in kinetic energy between those would probably be more than 5000 times).

It was your comparison, not mine...

@BrianK

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BrianK wrote: @Lou Quote: yesterday's fairies, today's greys Certainly if your meaning here is mythological explainations to best try and give reason to an unknown then you're spot on. Though note that is far, far different from truth or knowledge. Don't fill the void with an ever changing goal post. Admitting we 'don't know' is the first step in the journey into understanding. Admitting we 'don't know' is the light in the darkness that there's a genuinely exciting mystery to explore. “... there is no shame in not knowing. The problem arises when irrational thought and attendant behavior fill the vacuum left by ignorance.” - Neil Degrasse Tyson

All mythology has a basis in fact. They are interpretations using the knowledge of the time. Over time, the picture becomes clearer as man's ability to interpret the world around them becomes better with knowledge, hence technology. I only believe ancient man was inept, you and Nimrod apparently don't give current man much credit...and give ancient man alot more.

@Lou

I made the comparison 3.3 == barrel of oil and 6.3 == Fat Man + Little Boy.

I did not make the comparison 5.8 == anything at all.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@Lou

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All mythology has a basis in fact.

Basis in fact and are fact are two related but not similar concepts. Certainly wheat exists. And certainly people have woke up to wheat being squished existed. The mythology is created when instead of saying 'hey there's an unknown cause let's investigate' people instead assign an unevidenced caused. Concluding these are aliens because it's a really neat and fanciful idea, doesn't mean they are aliens.

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They are interpretations using the knowledge of the time.

Not true. For example, we have no actual knowledge that the God living in the Volcano exists. But, our belief in the unknown is used to assign the reason. We then discard some perfectly good virgins in hopes of apeasing a lack of knowledge. Turns out the volcano still erupts. Coorelation is not causation and often humans coorelate events which have no true depth of knowledge but instead just lots of postulates. AKA - it's turutles all the way down.

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I only believe ancient man was inept, you and Nimrod apparently don't give current man much credit...and give ancient man alot more

I agree with part of your comment. You certainly do believe ancient man was inept to the point of discarding humans as any sort of cause. However, I don't discard modern man. (And what I read of Nimrod he doesn't discard modern man.)

One plus of modern man is the sheer size of the population. For example, if an Einstein is a 1 in a billion event we didn't have a billion people until around 1800. We now are nearing 7 billion - thereby we have 7 Einsteins walking around and working on things. If anything modern man, due to population scale, can and should discover things faster and error check faster. Hence technology progressing at unprecidented rates.

Going back to ancient man creating the pyramids. What we can fairly say is there are many postulates. There's the human cause, the alien cause, the fairy cause, etc. What we can say about the human cause is we have evidences of existence, tools, and verified their technology could work to do such a building. What we can say about aliens and faires is we have perhaps an iota of evidence of existence, no evidence of tools, and no verifiable technology that could work. They might possibly be the cause but we're unable to assign any sort of probably. Their unknowns is simply too large to calculate. That which we do know, humans, we have sufficent knowledge that it would be completely unfair to exclude them as a probable cause.

@BrianK

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BrianK wrote: @Lou Quote: All mythology has a basis in fact. Basis in fact and are fact are two related but not similar concepts. Certainly wheat exists. And certainly people have woke up to wheat being squished existed. The mythology is created when instead of saying 'hey there's an unknown cause let's investigate' people instead assign an unevidenced caused. Concluding these are aliens because it's a really neat and fanciful idea, doesn't mean they are aliens. Quote: They are interpretations using the knowledge of the time. Not true. For example, we have no actual knowledge that the God living in the Volcano exists. But, our belief in the unknown is used to assign the reason. We then discard some perfectly good virgins in hopes of apeasing a lack of knowledge. Turns out the volcano still erupts. Coorelation is not causation and often humans coorelate events which have no true depth of knowledge but instead just lots of postulates. AKA - it's turutles all the way down.

AKA nothing you know today is facts but only postulates.


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One plus of modern man is the sheer size of the population. For example, if an Einstein is a 1 in a billion event we didn't have a billion people until around 1800. We now are nearing 7 billion - thereby we have 7 Einsteins walking around and working on things. If anything modern man, due to population scale, can and should discover things faster and error check faster. Hence technology progressing at unprecidented rates.

Einstein built on the work of many others and there were plenty of other notable scientists around that era as well, so I would argue that he is not a 1 in a billion event and that [he/someone like him] occurs more often. Maxwell and Tesla seems more relevant to our day to day lives than Einstein.

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Going back to ancient man creating the pyramids. What we can fairly say is there are many postulates. There's the human cause, the alien cause, the fairy cause, etc. What we can say about the human cause is we have evidences of existence, tools, and verified their technology could work to do such a building. What we can say about aliens and faires is we have perhaps an iota of evidence of existence, no evidence of tools, and no verifiable technology that could work. They might possibly be the cause but we're unable to assign any sort of probably. Their unknowns is simply too large to calculate. That which we do know, humans, we have sufficent knowledge that it would be completely unfair to exclude them as a probable cause.

The problem with you is that unless the probability is 100%, it might as well be 0. That never gets you very far. Might I ask what your profession is?

@olegil

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olegil wrote: @Lou I made the comparison 3.3 == barrel of oil and 6.3 == Fat Man + Little Boy. I did not make the comparison 5.8 == anything at all.

I'm going to ask again (despite what the nimrod thinks, this is not an insult)... Is English your primary language?

I ask because you seem to be misreading me...and hence your replys don't make the sense that they should to me.

@Lou

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AKA nothing you know today is facts but only postulates.

You're right and wrong. You're right to the extent that everything is open for questioning and better information may come in the future that enhances our current knowledge.

You're wrong because the point we're talking about here is your claim that 'interpretations are made using the knowledge of the time'. If you're now claiming we know nothing then clearly 'knowledge' isn't being used because we don't have it.

Thinking about your claim 'that interpretations are made using the knowledge of the time' Doesn't mean the best knowledge is used. Think back to the time when European Doctors were forbidden to investigate inside the body. At that same time middle-eastern doctors were excelling in medicine. Because at the time they had the better knowledge. .. Again just because there is knowledge doesn't mandate that anyone used it in their decision making.

And we could go into the construct of people further. As people are not only logical. If we were then knowledge would be much easier for us. Instead we're emotional and decide not only on what works best but for various emotional reasons. For example, Libertarians first rule on acceptance is selfishness as a leading reason to make a decision not knowledge. It's emotion based.

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so I would argue that he is not a 1 in a billion event

Sure whatever. You're arguing an example, not the point itself. The point itself was due to population size the ability for us to excel knowledge is greatly increased simply because there's more of us to work on the problems and more of us that are gifted. So if you want to throw out that Maxell and Tesla and Edison were 3 in a billion fine. Point still applies.

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The problem with you is that unless the probability is 100%, it might as well be 0. That never gets you very far.

Yes, we know inductive reasoning is a difficulty for your ideas. But, let's play with your idea here. If it's true for you that probabilities are worthless then you're unable to discard humans. Actually you're unable to discard anything. You claim aliens are THE answer, but you clearly have no where near 100% certainity. And everything is the same as 0%. So aliens are as likely as humans as are Bigfoots as are unicorns as are fairies as is your mom etc. When you claim aliens are the reason without having 100% knowledge, cuz you don't, you violate your own rule that everything less than 100% is therefore 0 and it's all the same.

Unfortunately probabilities are the best we have and everyone, along with you, and me make our decisions day in and day out based on those probabilities. There is never a 100% probability the that McDonalds you ate at a week ago won't be there today but I bet you still go back there and don't treat it as 0%, aka it didn't exist.

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Might I ask what your profession is?

I'm currently an IT Director.

I may add a person is more than a present profession. We all have experiences throughout lives which no one snippet can adequately convey. So for some more background. Degrees are in mathematics and philosophy. I've been a janitor, fast food manager, scientific research assistant, tutor, teacher's aid, machine repair and rebuild, along with systems and network engineer. I've had lots of life experiences too such as building houses, complete tear down of transmissions and engines. Run a hobby horse farm on my 20 acres. ...And well the thread isn't about all I've done but I hope that gives you a slightly more complete picture than what is my current profession.

In Business we're always assessing outcomes and trying to find the best solutions. Nothing is ever 100%. And we certainly do not act as your idea that probablity means everything is 0%. If it were 0% that means no possible good outcome and therefore donot do it. We'd never act in, if we used Lou's everything less than 100% means 0% idea.

I know in the past I asked you if you had any scientific collegiate background. I don't believe you ever answered. Do you have degrees? What's your current profession?

Last edited by BrianK on 29-Mar-2012 at 06:50 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 29-Mar-2012 at 06:48 PM.

@BrianK

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BrianK wrote: @Lou Quote: AKA nothing you know today is facts but only postulates. You're right and wrong. You're right to the extent that everything is open for questioning and better information may come in the future that enhances our current knowledge. You're wrong because the point we're talking about here is your claim that 'interpretations are made using the knowledge of the time'. If you're now claiming we know nothing then clearly 'knowledge' isn't being used because we don't have it. Thinking about your claim 'that interpretations are made using the knowledge of the time' Doesn't mean the best knowledge is used. Think back to the time when European Doctors were forbidden to investigate inside the body. At that same time middle-eastern doctors were excelling in medicine. Because at the time they had the better knowledge. .. Again just because there is knowledge doesn't mandate that anyone used it in their decision making. And we could go into the construct of people further. As people are not only logical. If we were then knowledge would be much easier for us. Instead we're emotional and decide not only on what works best but for various emotional reasons. For example, Libertarians first rule on acceptance is selfishness as a leading reason to make a decision not knowledge. It's emotion based. Quote: so I would argue that he is not a 1 in a billion event Sure whatever. You're arguing an example, not the point itself. The point itself was due to population size the ability for us to excel knowledge is greatly increased simply because there's more of us to work on the problems and more of us that are gifted. So if you want to throw out that Maxell and Tesla and Edison were 3 in a billion fine. Point still applies. Quote: [quote]The problem with you is that unless the probability is 100%, it might as well be 0. That never gets you very far. Yes, we know inductive reasoning is a difficulty for your ideas. But, let's play with your idea here. If it's true for you that probabilities are worthless then you're unable to discard humans. Actually you're unable to discard anything. You claim aliens are THE answer, but you clearly have no where near 100% certainity. And everything is the same as 0%. So aliens are as likely as humans as are Bigfoots as are unicorns as are fairies as is your mom etc. When you claim aliens are the reason without having 100% knowledge, cuz you don't, you violate your own rule that everything less than 100% is therefore 0 and it's all the same. Unfortunately probabilities are the best we have and everyone, along with you, and me make our decisions day in and day out based on those probabilities. There is never a 100% probability the that McDonalds you ate at a week ago won't be there today but I bet you still go back there and don't treat it as 0%, aka it didn't exist.

Considering the engineering of the project, the diamond cut markings on the stones, the size of the stones, the precision to which they are laid, ... etc...
in particular watch at 4:30...but you should watch it all...
So the actual evidence shows greater probability to aliens than man.
Of course hubris favors man alone..

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Quote: Might I ask what your profession is? I'm currently an IT Director.

Ofcourse...

@Lou

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Considering the engineering of the project, the diamond cut markings on the stones, the size of the stones, the precision to which they are laid

I've read and seen these alien claims. People have shown markings can be replicated by non-diamond tools. Especially in the case of limestone, which is fairly soft and comprises most of the construction. Also, stones do have natural fracture lines. It's fairly noteable while these stones are similar in size they aren't the exact same size.

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Of course hubris favors man alone

Well not knowning the hubris level in aliens or fairies we're unable to verify this. If I might postulate the aliens are traveling to backwater planets and the Nazca Lines are their signature which they photo and ship home to prove how cool they are driving their rental ufo so far. Kinda their form of 'Killroy was here'.

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Of Course

I'm glad you said of course. Perhaps you realize how much of a world I have to deal with day in and day out that's not 100% guaranteed. BC/DRP is a fairly easy stab at one way IT Departments help mitigate we live in a world of probablities of more than 0% and less than 100%.

Again your background if you will be fair enough to return the same respect.

@BrianK

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BrianK wrote: @Lou Quote: Considering the engineering of the project, the diamond cut markings on the stones, the size of the stones, the precision to which they are laid I've read and seen these alien claims. People have shown markings can be replicated by non-diamond tools. Especially in the case of limestone, which is fairly soft and comprises most of the construction. Also, stones do have natural fracture lines. It's fairly noteable while these stones are similar in size they aren't the exact same size. Quote: Of course hubris favors man alone Well not knowning the hubris level in aliens or fairies we're unable to verify this. If I might postulate the aliens are traveling to backwater planets and the Nazca Lines are their signature which they photo and ship home to prove how cool they are driving their rental ufo so far. Kinda their form of 'Killroy was here'.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNGngZsxAhw

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Quote: Of Course I'm glad you said of course. Perhaps you realize how much of a world I have to deal with day in and day out that's not 100% guaranteed. BC/DRP is a fairly easy stab at one way IT Departments help mitigate we live in a world of probablities of more than 0% and less than 100%. Again your background if you will be fair enough to return the same respect.

I started as a programmer, became and administrator and then moved back you where I was happiest: programming.

@Lou

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Considering the engineering of the project, the diamond cut markings on the stones, the size of the stones, the precision to which they are laid, ... etc... in particular watch at 4:30...but you should watch it all...

Once again you post a video of some individual making unsupported assertion and call it evidence.
His claim that Egyptians did not build pyramids is unsupported by any evidence and his claim that there are no contemporaneous documented records of the building of the pyramids in Egypt is an absolute deliberate lie.
Every assertion that this idiot made was unsupported and many of them were complete distortions of the truth, made by somebody who is trying to make himself out to be something that he is not. If this clown has evidence that lasers were used, where is it? Does he have an antique laser? No. Does he have samples of rock showing vitrification? No. What he has is a fuzzy picture, and the ability to stand in front of an audience and lie with a straight face.
Does this person really think that it would take four to five thousand years for sedimentation to build up at Abydos? There is already evidence of accelerated build up of deposits upstream of Aswan, coupled with loss of soil quality and transgression of the Nile delta. This after only 44 years since the Nile was blocked in an attempt to control it and when the river finally wins there will be all of that silt coming downstream in one huge rush, and there will be more than a few buildings getting buried.

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So the actual evidence shows greater probability to aliens than man.

The actual evidence that actually exists, actually indicates that the actual builders of the pyramids were actually human labourers actually getting paid, housed, and fed while actually building pyramids. The scribes who recorded the deliveries of building materials, food, etc, and also kept accounts of wages totally neglected to mention flying saucers, lasers, airborne megaliths, or little green men. I wonder why?

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

@Lou

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNGngZsxAhw

Yes perhaps aliens bred with us. Though it's not 100% so therefore Lou says it's 0% and didn't happen. Right? Well of course not.

Human DNA has been sequenced. As have other, but not all, animals. As we continue to uncover this knowledge we can map the relationships of animals to each other. So did aliens come insert their 2.5% of genes into a mouse and thereby turned it into the human? A fair question as that's the difference in our genetic code. Well, we'd have to find the alien DNA to test to see if that 2.5% DNA was possibly sourced from that species. As we have no alien DNA to conduct a test we can't ascertain if that difference really did come from aliens.

It's important to note the way DNA research works. It relies upon matches. If a match doesn't exist the conclusion is 'we don't have sufficent information to determine'. IMO a very fair conclusion.

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I started as a programmer, became and administrator and then moved back you where I was happiest: programming.

Enjoy programming. Programming was a step I took for roughly 2 years. I seem to not enjoy anything for too long. Which means I always seek out new opportunities and challenges.

BTW - My son is home sick. At 5 years old he's decided to document the color, consistency, and amount of his vomit. A budding scientist!

@BrianK

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Kinda their form of 'Killroy was here'.

At some point in the future, this will be attributed to aliens, because the technology to do this is not contemporaneous with the occupants of that particular area, at the time the people depicted were alive. It may even be claimed that the people depicted were aliens, who were regarded as gods by the humans of the day.
Personally I think that it was done by humans, on land taken from a defeated enemy in order to further belittle and humiliate the defeated people, but that is only an opinion.

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

@Nimrod

Quote:

Nimrod wrote: @BrianK Quote: Kinda their form of 'Killroy was here'. At some point in the future, this will be attributed to aliens, because the technology to do this is not contemporaneous with the occupants of that particular area, at the time the people depicted were alive. It may even be claimed that the people depicted were aliens, who were regarded as gods by the humans of the day. Personally I think that it was done by humans, on land taken from a defeated enemy in order to further belittle and humiliate the defeated people, but that is only an opinion.

You mean you actually believe the eye witness testimony of the people who say humans did it?


...ah the hypocrasy...

@BrianK

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BrianK wrote: @Lou Quote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNGngZsxAhw Yes perhaps aliens bred with us. Though it's not 100% so therefore Lou says it's 0% and didn't happen. Right? Well of course not. Human DNA has been sequenced. As have other, but not all, animals. As we continue to uncover this knowledge we can map the relationships of animals to each other. So did aliens come insert their 2.5% of genes into a mouse and thereby turned it into the human? A fair question as that's the difference in our genetic code. Well, we'd have to find the alien DNA to test to see if that 2.5% DNA was possibly sourced from that species. As we have no alien DNA to conduct a test we can't ascertain if that difference really did come from aliens. It's important to note the way DNA research works. It relies upon matches. If a match doesn't exist the conclusion is 'we don't have sufficent information to determine'. IMO a very fair conclusion.

You should watch the WHOLE lecture...(all 8 parts)

Last edited by Lou on 29-Mar-2012 at 09:44 PM.

@Nimrod

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At some point in the future, this will be attributed to aliens, because the technology to do this is not contemporaneous with the occupants of that particular area, at the time the people depicted were alive. It may even be claimed that the people depicted were aliens, who were regarded as gods by the humans of the day. Personally I think that it was done by humans, on land taken from a defeated enemy in order to further belittle and humiliate the defeated people, but that is only an opinion.

Certainly the parallel has been made that sufficently advanced technology is akin to magic. Working in the IT field I run across many users that aren't tech savvy and call it 'IT Magic'.

I'd call out two works of fiction that play with this idea. The first is my early exposure to this idea a kid. 'Beneath the Planet of the Apes' - they didn't know what the Doomsday Atomic Bomb was. They thought it to be god gifted and worshiped it. As a young'en this idea blew my mind. As I grew I then was exposed in an excellent manner through reading 'A Canticle for Leibowitz'.

@Lou

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Lou wrote: @olegil Quote: olegil wrote: @Lou Wow. 6.3? Total power about the same as the Hiroshima AND Nagasaki nuclear bombs COMBINED? You know, with an average of 134 quakes of magnitude 6.0-6.9 per year, you'll be reporting a freaking LOT of earthquakes unless you start filtering out the bigger sizes. The other day I heard someone on the radio discuss an earthquake in Norway, which was somewhere between 3 and 3.5 (can't remember). Well, a barrel of oil has the chemical energy equivalent of roughly a 3.3 magnitude quake, so that's hardly interesting, is it? http://boston.cbslocal.com/2011/08/23/earthquake-felt-in-southern-new-england/ I was in northern Rhode Island when this one hit and considering the vertigo I experienced during it, I find your trivalizing of earthquakes insulting to everyone who has suffered from them. Do barrels of oil cause vertigo? A barrel of oil blows up and messes up what, an acre? Try that across thousands of square miles. Good comparison...not.

No, English is not my first language. As you would have known had you read my response last time you asked the language.

But how on earth does "a 5.8 causing vertigo" negate "a 3.3 is the energy equvalent of a barrel of oil"?

Yes, I will quite happily trivialise any earthquake between 3.0 and 3.9. Learn to deal with it. Your 6.3 was degraded to a 6.0, btw.

We've had 12 earthquakes 6.0 and above the last 30 days, slightly behind schedule for the average 145 per year (134 6's, ten 7's and one 8). I notice you haven't bothered reporting most of them here, just the odd one that reached the mainstream news.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@olegil

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olegil wrote: @Lou No, English is not my first language. As you would have known had you read my response last time you asked the language. But how on earth does "a 5.8 causing vertigo" negate "a 3.3 is the energy equvalent of a barrel of oil"? Yes, I will quite happily trivialise any earthquake between 3.0 and 3.9. Learn to deal with it. Your 6.3 was degraded to a 6.0, btw. We've had 12 earthquakes 6.0 and above the last 30 days, slightly behind schedule for the average 145 per year (134 6's, ten 7's and one 8). I notice you haven't bothered reporting most of them here, just the odd one that reached the mainstream news.

An oil barrel exploding isn't going to be felt 600 miles from the center of its explosion like an earthquake will, hence comparing their energies is pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

Last edited by Lou on 30-Mar-2012 at 02:00 PM.

@Lou

The source of the 6GJ of energy in a short spike isn't what determines whether or not it's felt 600 miles away. How you release it (duration of spike and what medium the energy is released into) determines it all.

So if you managed to make a barrel of oil blow up in a very short time a few km under ground embedded in bedrock, there is no way in hell anyone would know that wasn't a real earthquake of magnitude 3.3. Do you really disagree with this?

But a 3.3 won't be felt (registered on a seismometer yes, felt by a human no) 600 miles away anyway.

_________________
This weeks pet peeve:
Using "voltage" instead of "potential", which leads to inventing new words like "amperage" instead of "current" (I, measured in A) or possible "charge" (amperehours, Ah or Coulomb, C). Sometimes I don't even know what people mean.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Nimrod Quote: At some point in the future, this will be attributed to aliens, because the technology to do this is not contemporaneous with the occupants of that particular area, at the time the people depicted were alive. It may even be claimed that the people depicted were aliens, who were regarded as gods by the humans of the day. Personally I think that it was done by humans, on land taken from a defeated enemy in order to further belittle and humiliate the defeated people, but that is only an opinion. Certainly the parallel has been made that sufficently advanced technology is akin to magic. Working in the IT field I run across many users that aren't tech savvy and call it 'IT Magic'. I'd call out two works of fiction that play with this idea. The first is my early exposure to this idea a kid. 'Beneath the Planet of the Apes' - they didn't know what the Doomsday Atomic Bomb was. They thought it to be god gifted and worshiped it. As a young'en this idea blew my mind. As I grew I then was exposed in an excellent manner through reading 'A Canticle for Leibowitz'.

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/355265/group/Opinion/
Interesting new book...

And in the 'duh' moment: once you go black you never go back!
I mean, who would have thought that black absorbs light...
Perhaps eventually they will figure out how to absorb non-visible light...