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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 2-Jul-2012 15:50:30
#2181 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@Nimrod

Quote:

Nimrod wrote:
@Lou

I, not in posession of all of the facts, frequently make sweeping pronouncements.

I fixed that post for you.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 2-Jul-2012 15:57:43
#2182 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
This is clearly another desparate post by you.
Can you cite one case where MDMA is the cause of death?
The article is incorrect in stating that MDMA can kill anyone.

Lou it's simply a case of you not reading the article.
"In fact, it’s been known for years that ecstasy and other psychoactive drugs like antidepressants are able to stop the growth of cancer cells. But in order to be effective, the doses needed would be massive enough to kill a person"

You do realize enough of anything can kill right? Including water and not just by drowning. Check out Water intoxication.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 2-Jul-2012 16:18:11
#2183 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
This is clearly another desparate post by you.
Can you cite one case where MDMA is the cause of death?
The article is incorrect in stating that MDMA can kill anyone.

Lou it's simply a case of you not reading the article.
"In fact, it’s been known for years that ecstasy and other psychoactive drugs like antidepressants are able to stop the growth of cancer cells. But in order to be effective, the doses needed would be massive enough to kill a person"

You do realize enough of anything can kill right? Including water and not just by drowning. Check out Water intoxication.

Yes, I do. Now find me one case where MDMA has killed someone and the dosage identified.

You do realize FACTS are still required...oh wait, I'm sorry, I forgot that you, like Nimrod, prefer "science by proclamation".

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 2-Jul-2012 16:19:15
#2184 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

Stephen Hawking discredits himself...
More science in the comments than in the interview...so sad...

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 2-Jul-2012 17:33:48
#2185 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

I constructed what I thought you'd do - read half of this and negate the other half. You seemingly agree MDMA kills cancer. But, you refuse to accept the statement that it only does so after it kills the patient. You're asking for evidence from me so don't be too shocked that you need to provide us evidence on how the article is wrong and you have this right.

Quote:
The article is incorrect in stating that MDMA can kill anyone

USA and UK numbers I'll be the first to say fear of death from MDMA is overhyped. But, I won't say it hasn't killed before.

Quote:
You do realize FACTS are still required
Certainly they are required. In this article they cite the 'facts' of X killing cancer is in the test tube and in dosages where the person would be dead. You cite your 'fact' that this isn't true. Where is your research showing that MDMA kills cancer before it kills the patient?

The real fact is science is approaching this as observing the relationship, postulating how we can kill cancer safely, and experimentation to verify this relationship.

...
And yes I'll bite - how did Hawkins discredit himself?

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Nimrod 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 2-Jul-2012 18:15:54
#2186 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@Lou

Quote:
Yes, I do. Now find me one case where MDMA has killed someone and the dosage identified.
An excerpt from a document put out by a group of people called "doctors" who work in places called "hospitals". Of course I realise that you refuse to accept that they may actually know something that you do not but their comments may be worth reading.
Quote:
Ecstasy deaths There were 202 reported deaths in the UK between 1996-2002 related to the use of ecstasy, reaching a peak of 43 in 2001 in England and Wales alone. Data from the Office of National Statistics for the period 1993 to 2006 record a mean 33 deaths per year where MDMA was implicated and 17 where it was considered the sole drug. One case of a death following ingestion of one tablet has been reported. A recent review of the literature concluded that the number of deaths related to ecstasy alone was small.
Fatal episodes are thought to be caused by three main mechanisms:
Hyperthermia - this is thought to cause the majority of deaths. It is often due to energetic dancing in an overheated club combined with the effect of MDMA on the thermostatic control mechanism of the autonomic nervous system.
Dilutional hyponatraemia - this appears to be the result of ecstasy stimulating the production of anti-diuretic hormone, leading to fluid retention. The situation is sometimes compounded by users drinking a high volume of water rapidly in the mistaken belief that this will stave off the adverse effects of the drug.
Cardiac failure - this may be due to a combination of factors, including tachycardia, hypertension and fluid retention.

Of course, rather than admit that healthcare proffessionals know more about the subjec than a man you met in a pub, you will claim that these comments are part of a fiendish worldwide plot specifically intended to ridicule one person.

Quote:
I forgot that you, like Nimrod, prefer "science by proclamation".
This, from somebody who trawls the web for any unmitigated CRAP he can find, and posts it up as "proven indisputable fact" that the scientific community is concealing from the rest of the world.

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 2-Jul-2012 19:33:33
#2187 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@Nimrod

Quote:

Nimrod wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
Yes, I do. Now find me one case where MDMA has killed someone and the dosage identified.
An excerpt from a document put out by a group of people called "doctors" who work in places called "hospitals". Of course I realise that you refuse to accept that they may actually know something that you do not but their comments may be worth reading.
Quote:
Ecstasy deaths There were 202 reported deaths in the UK between 1996-2002 related to the use of ecstasy, reaching a peak of 43 in 2001 in England and Wales alone. Data from the Office of National Statistics for the period 1993 to 2006 record a mean 33 deaths per year where MDMA was implicated and 17 where it was considered the sole drug. One case of a death following ingestion of one tablet has been reported. A recent review of the literature concluded that the number of deaths related to ecstasy alone was small.
Fatal episodes are thought to be caused by three main mechanisms:
Hyperthermia - this is thought to cause the majority of deaths. It is often due to energetic dancing in an overheated club combined with the effect of MDMA on the thermostatic control mechanism of the autonomic nervous system.
Dilutional hyponatraemia - this appears to be the result of ecstasy stimulating the production of anti-diuretic hormone, leading to fluid retention. The situation is sometimes compounded by users drinking a high volume of water rapidly in the mistaken belief that this will stave off the adverse effects of the drug.
Cardiac failure - this may be due to a combination of factors, including tachycardia, hypertension and fluid retention.

Of course, rather than admit that healthcare proffessionals know more about the subjec than a man you met in a pub, you will claim that these comments are part of a fiendish worldwide plot specifically intended to ridicule one person.

Quote:
I forgot that you, like Nimrod, prefer "science by proclamation".
This, from somebody who trawls the web for any unmitigated CRAP he can find, and posts it up as "proven indisputable fact" that the scientific community is concealing from the rest of the world.

Thank you Nimrod for highlighting your ignorance!
"Ecstacy" as sold on the street may or may not be MDMA.
"where it was considered the sole drug" is misleading because they only test for certain drugs don't consider interactions with other 'legal' drugs or perhaps situations where the person had a heart condition. Also, for instance GHB will not show up in normal drug tests and wasn't even "illegal" until more recent times.

Now considering the millions of pills of "ecstacy"(which can actually NOT be MDMA many times) that are consumed on a weekly basis, have you determined a dosage of MDMA that will kill every person that consumes it?

...I'm waiting...

On a side note, 500 people per year in the USA alone die from aspirin...

Science by proclamation at its finest...

Last edited by Lou on 02-Jul-2012 at 07:38 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 2-Jul-2012 19:36:45
#2188 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:

...
And yes I'll bite - how did Hawkins discredit himself?

Did you read the comments in the article?
He reminds me of Donald Menzel...

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 2-Jul-2012 20:33:23
#2189 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Read it before I came here and found your post. What do you take umbrage with?

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 3-Jul-2012 13:51:52
#2190 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Nimrod and @Lou

Higgs experiment outcome due anyday. Good article here on what the early signs are. It mostly matches but with some possible expections. It's an exciting time! Will Higgs be proven and Standard model confirmed? Will Higgs be proven and the Standard model changed or discarded? Or will Higgs be shown not to exist. It's looking more like Higgs will be proven and related evidence may change or even discard the Standard Model. Again exciting stuff looking into the unknown and seeing which postulates are more valid than others.



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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 3-Jul-2012 16:14:15
#2191 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Nimrod and @Lou

Higgs experiment outcome due anyday. Good article here on what the early signs are. It mostly matches but with some possible expections. It's an exciting time! Will Higgs be proven and Standard model confirmed? Will Higgs be proven and the Standard model changed or discarded? Or will Higgs be shown not to exist. It's looking more like Higgs will be proven and related evidence may change or even discard the Standard Model. Again exciting stuff looking into the unknown and seeing which postulates are more valid than others.

Good luck with that...
http://blog.vixra.org/2012/06/29/whats-the-deal-with-h-→-ww/
Everything indicates that they have not discovered it and if they actually claim they did, it will be purely because they are sick of looking and don't want to have to create a new model... Basically, a yes is for PR and the reality is a new model is needed.

Last edited by Lou on 03-Jul-2012 at 04:16 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 3-Jul-2012 16:22:00
#2192 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Lou

Read it before I came here and found your post. What do you take umbrage with?

Either his sense of humor is really lame or he's going insane.
I already alluded to him being the next Donald Menzel, aka the physicist on the original Majic 12 counsel that publicly acted as a debunker...his last answer is really full of standard debunking speak.

Also his "time travel" experiment was just plain stupid...but that was either a joke or insanity...

Last edited by Lou on 03-Jul-2012 at 04:23 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 03-Jul-2012 at 04:23 PM.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 3-Jul-2012 17:04:11
#2193 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
Good luck with that...
Do note I gave multiple possible outcomes which are completely dependent upon the condition of the evidence. Including ones the vixia.org blog included. So yeah open to where the evidence leads should be where science goes.

As for the Hawking article:
Yes there was humor in there. British subtleness along with a typed delivery doesn't always play well. I'll certainly support you're assertion that Stephen shouldn't quite his day job for late night standup on Letterman.

The 'debunker speak' which you claim I don't see as a problem. We don't have good quality evidence of UFOs. We have some claims that are unverified or unverifiable. The problem I see here is his reasoning. He makes the claim that since aliens haven't been here in 4 Billion years therefore they won't be here tomorrow. For sake of arguement let's assume he's true. Just because no aliens stopped for 4 Billion years doesn't mean one won't stop tomorrow. Stopping tomorrow has no dependence upon stopping (or not) in the past. In part again I think some of this is his delivery. Remember the guy works on physics and math he doesn't spend his time honing his stand up routine or being too overly concerned with a public facing appearance. Neither of those items are what's important to him.

And really too bad at that. I think our society, and world, needs a couple of things. Reporters that are better scientists and scientists that are better reporters.

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Nimrod 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 3-Jul-2012 18:02:02
#2194 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@Lou

Quote:
"Ecstacy" as sold on the street may or may not be MDMA
So basically what you are claiming is that because one or two criminals are not totally honest, and occasionally short change their customers, all of their product is as harmless as chalk dust, and it is perfectly safe to swallow, shove up your nose, in your ear, up your ring, or generally introduce through the orifice of your own personal preference, an infinite quantity of any unidentified substance with the only potential hazard being the risk of bursting at the seams. If you learn to read you will see the statement "a mean 33 deaths per year where MDMA was implicated " Please note the term MDMA was used, not ecstacy or aspirin. Or are you trying to tell me that after three years as a student, followed by four more as a med student doctors still cannot recognise something that they have possibly been using themselves during that time.

Quote:
have you determined a dosage of MDMA that will kill every person that consumes it?
Twenty tons should do the job, but that is not how lethal doses are calculated. Because individuals react differently to substances, the standard methodology used is the LD50 test. The abbreviation stands for lethal dose for 50% of the sample group. For some reason this has to be done using animal testing as there is some difficulty getting permits to use humans for this method of testing. The point that you are once again running scared from is that we are not debating whether the amount of ecstacy taken in a diluted tablet at a party will kill you, but whether the dosage of MDMA that will eradicate a cancerous growth, will kill the patient first. The evidence, obtained using LD50 testing, is that it will eradicate the cancer and the patient.

This is not proclamation, it is experimentation.

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 3-Jul-2012 18:12:02
#2195 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

Interesting presentation from Jim Mars
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlhSS51ZGz4

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 3-Jul-2012 18:12:22
#2196 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Nimrod

Quote:
e point that you are once again running scared from is that we are not debating whether the amount of ecstacy taken in a diluted tablet at a party will kill you, but whether the dosage of MDMA that will eradicate a cancerous growth, will kill the patient first

This is exactly the point of discussion.

It's strange Lou introduces and arguement that no one has ever died on MDMA. First it's wrong. Second, even if it's right then no one has ever had their cancer cured either. (According to experimentally provided evidence of cure from MDMA) So Lou's contention that Jobs should have just have taken more party drugs is wrong.

Because Lou's statement was not a truth in relation to Lou's posted article, I assumed Lou meant to try out humor. (Who knows perhaps Lou thinks he can beat Hawking at Standup?) I lost that impression once Lou responded trying to claim his statement was true and it was us that didn't understand that article. If Lou was trying to be funny he lost any humor in a poor response. And if Lou was serious he is wrong.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 3-Jul-2012 18:23:26
#2197 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Nimrod

Quote:
Twenty tons should do the job,
Human skull is roundish in shape. Depending on the pressure area around 20-40 pounds per square inch of pressure will crush the skull. In a properly shaped and sized funnel I bet we could accomplish death with much less than 20 tons of MDMA.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 3-Jul-2012 18:28:47
#2198 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@Nimrod

Quote:

Nimrod wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
"Ecstacy" as sold on the street may or may not be MDMA
So basically what you are claiming is that because one or two criminals are not totally honest, and occasionally short change their customers, all of their product is as harmless as chalk dust, and it is perfectly safe to swallow, shove up your nose, in your ear, up your ring, or generally introduce through the orifice of your own personal preference, an infinite quantity of any unidentified substance with the only potential hazard being the risk of bursting at the seams. If you learn to read you will see the statement "a mean 33 deaths per year where MDMA was implicated " Please note the term MDMA was used, not ecstacy or aspirin. Or are you trying to tell me that after three years as a student, followed by four more as a med student doctors still cannot recognise something that they have possibly been using themselves during that time.

You continue to provide more evidence why conversation with you is useless.
"Real" ecstasy can be MDMA, MDA or MDE. There's also lots of fakes for whatever reason that is either a chemical found in cold medicine, aspirin and caffeine and occassionally speed and PCP ... or any combination of those, really. All you are doing in the above paragraph is the normal act of putting words in my mouth and drawing conclusions where none should exist.

Quote:
Quote:
have you determined a dosage of MDMA that will kill every person that consumes it?
Twenty tons should do the job, but that is not how lethal doses are calculated. Because individuals react differently to substances, the standard methodology used is the LD50 test. The abbreviation stands for lethal dose for 50% of the sample group. For some reason this has to be done using animal testing as there is some difficulty getting permits to use humans for this method of testing. The point that you are once again running scared from is that we are not debating whether the amount of ecstacy taken in a diluted tablet at a party will kill you, but whether the dosage of MDMA that will eradicate a cancerous growth, will kill the patient first. The evidence, obtained using LD50 testing, is that it will eradicate the cancer and the patient.

This is not proclamation, it is experimentation.

Why simply admit to "not knowing" or admitting that the real amount has never been determined because it would require actually killing people in the %'s you claim? Instead you have to further polute this thread with your unscientific CRAP.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 3-Jul-2012 18:40:14
#2199 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Nimrod

Quote:
e point that you are once again running scared from is that we are not debating whether the amount of ecstacy taken in a diluted tablet at a party will kill you, but whether the dosage of MDMA that will eradicate a cancerous growth, will kill the patient first

This is exactly the point of discussion.

It's strange Lou introduces and arguement that no one has ever died on MDMA. First it's wrong. Second, even if it's right then no one has ever had their cancer cured either. (According to experimentally provided evidence of cure from MDMA) So Lou's contention that Jobs should have just have taken more party drugs is wrong.

Because Lou's statement was not a truth in relation to Lou's posted article, I assumed Lou meant to try out humor. (Who knows perhaps Lou thinks he can beat Hawking at Standup?) I lost that impression once Lou responded trying to claim his statement was true and it was us that didn't understand that article. If Lou was trying to be funny he lost any humor in a poor response. And if Lou was serious he is wrong.

The article was pretty explanatory:
Quote:
Ecstasy can really fight cancer?
Yes. In fact, it’s been known for years that ecstasy and other psychoactive drugs like antidepressants are able to stop the growth of cancer cells. But in order to be effective, the doses needed would be massive enough to kill a person.

So it said "Yes" but then said the dose would kill a person yet no such dose has ever been determined. If someone that died from MDMA that 99.9999% of the population wouldn't, was it the MDMA or did they have a complication that was induced by the MDMA and other factors. Solely blaming MDMA is naive...however it is used as propoganda against ecstasy, just like the old "holes in your brain scan on ecstacy" commercials which was a complete fabrication by the propoganda machine.

The humor was about Steve Jobs and partying...

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Nimrod 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 3-Jul-2012 19:02:01
#2200 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@Lou

Quote:
"Real" ecstasy can be MDMA, MDA or MDE.
Read.
The.
Statement.

"a mean 33 deaths per year where MDMA was implicated"

Note the substance implicated.

It was not MDA
It was not MDE
It was not PCP
It was not GHB
It was not calcium carbonate

It was MDMA

Quote:
Why simply admit to "not knowing" or admitting that the real amount has never been determined because it would require actually killing people in the %'s you claim? Instead you have to further polute this thread with your unscientific CRAP.
OK Smartasre, since you are the source of all human knowledge, past, present, and future, how much of it should Jobs have taken to be cured of all ills while remaining totally unharmed himself? An estimate, with calculations, will be acceptable to demonstrate just how supremely scientific you are.

_________________
When in trouble, fear or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout.

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