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Nimrod 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 27-Aug-2012 13:37:07
#2321 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@BrianK

Loved the little Haiku at the end of the article. Quote:
Branson now reveals Alien technology Just so much hot air
It says it all really

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Nimrod 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 27-Aug-2012 14:29:24
#2322 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@Lou

Quote:
You also continue creating logical follies when using a formula for rest mass and comparing that to the mass-energy equivalence of a particle in motion.
I simplified my answer partly to avoid overloading your limited abilities with the concepts of mathematics, but also for brevity. It was not because I was unaware that there are complexities (even the linked information is a simplification) but your claim about my ignorance does not disprove the mathematics any more than this dissertation by your intellectual equal.
For the record I am willing to concede that the mass in motion acquires further mass as a consequence of its kinetic energy. It does so at the rate of E/C^2.
Please accept my sincerest apologies for trying to be helpful and simplify things for your benefit, and my assurance that I will not offend you in this manner again.

Quote:
Stop claiming to be a math rocket scientist when its apparent you don't know your mass from your elbow.
Despite the fact that I am aware of the equations used in ballistics, I am only an engineer , not a rocket scientist. However, since you are interested in the radiation pressure and energy received from distant stars here is a maths example that you may find enlightening, pay particular attention to question 4.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 27-Aug-2012 16:31:05
#2323 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@Nimrod

Quote:

Nimrod wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
You also continue creating logical follies when using a formula for rest mass and comparing that to the mass-energy equivalence of a particle in motion.
I simplified my answer partly to avoid overloading your limited abilities with the concepts of mathematics, but also for brevity. It was not because I was unaware that there are complexities (even the linked information is a simplification) but your claim about my ignorance does not disprove the mathematics any more than this dissertation by your intellectual equal.
For the record I am willing to concede that the mass in motion acquires further mass as a consequence of its kinetic energy. It does so at the rate of E/C^2.
Please accept my sincerest apologies for trying to be helpful and simplify things for your benefit, and my assurance that I will not offend you in this manner again.

Quote:
Stop claiming to be a math rocket scientist when its apparent you don't know your mass from your elbow.
Despite the fact that I am aware of the equations used in ballistics, I am only an engineer , not a rocket scientist. However, since you are interested in the radiation pressure and energy received from distant stars here is a maths example that you may find enlightening, pay particular attention to question 4.

While you are at #4, multiply by the cross-sectional area of the earth...

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Nimrod 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 27-Aug-2012 17:47:47
#2324 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@Lou

Quote:
While you are at #4, multiply by the cross-sectional area of the earth...
I think I see where you want to go with this. You think that by finding the total energy received from Proxima cantauri you can "prove" that the nearest star is in fact pushing us toward the sun by radiation pressure. Are you aware that not all of that energy strikes the Earth perpendicularly, as explained here. And yes, I am aware that the article discusses energy received from the sun, but one of the failing of the internet is that there are not an infinite number of links to scientific articles about energy levels from nearby stars.
Now compare the pressure of 3.27x10^-11W/M^2 from Proxima with the 1.367x10^3 W/M2 pushing us away from the sun. This energy from the sun translates to a pressure of up to 9.15μPa. This pressure diminishes as the distance increases as the inverse of the square of the distance. Since the energy from Proxima has already been diminished a simple conversion of the Energy to pressure will show how much radiation pressure we are receiving from our nearest neighbour. It works out as 2.18x10^-21Pa, for which I cannot find any comparison

To further demonstrate the level of radiation pressure stand in an open space when the Sun is bisected by the horizon. At this point the strongest source of radiation pressure is forcing you along tangentially while gravity is pulling you perpendicular to the surface.
Do you stand still, or skid along the ground? Or was the example too dumbed down?

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 28-Aug-2012 1:40:37
#2325 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Nimrod

Thanks for the Pressure charts. Interesting reading. With that in mind it struck me of another postulate that was discovered a failure, Homeopathy. Samuel Hahnemann created the Homeopathic postulates that like cures like and the infitesimally small does an even better job at it. He promoted that a 30C (aka 10^60) dilutation held the most value to improving whatever is making you sick. Old Sammy clearly didn't get scale either. See a 10^60 dilution would produce the result of having 1 molecule from a mole diluted in 10Billion times the volume of the earth. A 1 molecule in 10Billion volumes of earth is even less than the number of snowballs in hell.... In summary the failure to understand scale isn't exactly a unique difficulty for 'alterative science'.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 29-Aug-2012 0:48:21
#2326 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Nimrod

http://imgur.com/a/BLB7l

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 29-Aug-2012 13:09:07
#2327 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@Nimrod

Quote:

Nimrod wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
While you are at #4, multiply by the cross-sectional area of the earth...
I think I see where you want to go with this. You think that by finding the total energy received from Proxima cantauri you can "prove" that the nearest star is in fact pushing us toward the sun by radiation pressure. Are you aware that not all of that energy strikes the Earth perpendicularly, as explained here. And yes, I am aware that the article discusses energy received from the sun, but one of the failing of the internet is that there are not an infinite number of links to scientific articles about energy levels from nearby stars.

Now multiply by the # of stars in the galaxy...or universe...

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 29-Aug-2012 13:25:26
#2328 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:

Nimrod wrote:
Quote:
I think I see where you want to go with this. You think that by finding the total energy received from Proxima cantauri you can "prove" that the nearest star is in fact pushing us toward the sun by radiation pressure. Are you aware that not all of that energy strikes the Earth perpendicularly, as explained here. And yes, I am aware that the article discusses energy received from the sun, but one of the failing of the internet is that there are not an infinite number of links to scientific articles about energy levels from nearby stars.

Now multiply by the # of stars in the galaxy...or universe...

Do you realize how badly you just broke the math?

Last edited by BrianK on 29-Aug-2012 at 01:44 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 29-Aug-2012 13:38:48
#2329 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@physics noobs

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120828134938.htm

This is a pretty amusing article.

Quote:
Einstein's theory of general relativity predicts that moving objects create subtle ripples in the fabric of space-time, called gravitational waves. Gravitational waves should carry away energy, causing the stars to inch closer together and orbit each other faster and faster.

The classical view of black holes is that "nothing escapes, not even light".
The observed black holes emit energy/light...meanwhile, the "Theory of General Relativity" still stands...

So these "two white dwarf stars so close together -- one-third of the Earth-moon distance -- " are emitting lots of "energy" *cough*light*cough* yet they supposedly will still take 2 million years to collide, despite the *oh so strong* force of "high mass objects" (with high LOL@gravity) in close vicinity...and the fact that this 13 minute orbit is going down by another 20 seconds by May of 2013...

I guess, in the end, I am most amused by the fact that light emissions (you know, causing " radiation pressure") is used here as a synonymn for "gravitational wave dector"... /sigh

As massive objects "carry energy away", they lose "mass"...

"General Relativity" continues to not add up, imo...

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 29-Aug-2012 13:51:40
#2330 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
I guess, in the end, I am most amused by the fact that light emissions (you know, causing " radiation pressure") is used here as a synonymn for "gravitational wave dector"... /sigh

Really?

"Einstein's theory of general relativity predicts that moving objects create subtle ripples in the fabric of space-time, called gravitational waves. Gravitational waves should carry away energy, causing the stars to inch closer together and orbit each other faster and faster. The team was able to detect this effect in J0651.

"Compared to April 2011, when we discovered this object, the eclipses now happen six seconds sooner than expected," said team member Mukremin Kilic of The University of Oklahoma.

"This is a general relativistic effect you could measure with a wrist watch," added SAO's Warren Brown."

The only way Light is being detected here is the object's emission of light that gets to our eyes (via telescope) to do the timing of the objects. It's rather difficult to measure timing of a black object orbiting a black object within black space. You know that whole observing through eyes doesn't work so well.

Trying to read your drivel of a summary shows you most confused and blaming that confusion on science. In reality the problem is your lack of comprehension.

Last edited by BrianK on 29-Aug-2012 at 01:53 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 29-Aug-2012 16:13:44
#2331 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
I guess, in the end, I am most amused by the fact that light emissions (you know, causing " radiation pressure") is used here as a synonymn for "gravitational wave dector"... /sigh

Really?

"Einstein's theory of general relativity predicts that moving objects create subtle ripples in the fabric of space-time, called gravitational waves. Gravitational waves should carry away energy, causing the stars to inch closer together and orbit each other faster and faster. The team was able to detect this effect in J0651.

"Compared to April 2011, when we discovered this object, the eclipses now happen six seconds sooner than expected," said team member Mukremin Kilic of The University of Oklahoma.

"This is a general relativistic effect you could measure with a wrist watch," added SAO's Warren Brown."

The only way Light is being detected here is the object's emission of light that gets to our eyes (via telescope) to do the timing of the objects. It's rather difficult to measure timing of a black object orbiting a black object within black space. You know that whole observing through eyes doesn't work so well.

Trying to read your drivel of a summary shows you most confused and blaming that confusion on science. In reality the problem is your lack of comprehension.

Apparently you have a reading comprehension problem.
I found the article AMUSING...because it is inherently confusing to physics noobs who worship the THEORY of general relativity.

Let me explain for the obvious physics noobs in the audience...

GR says really "massive" things have this mythical force called "gravity" that is "super strong". Now the white dwarves in question are supposed to have a mass atleast 6x the sun but be the size of the earth and are located 1/3 the distance to the moon from the earth... So they are really close together and really "massive" but yet its still going to take them 2 million years to collide despite orbitting each other currently every 13 minutes. Perhaps our resident rocket scientist/math whiz can do the math on the 'all powerful' force of gravity here...

Now, from the GEM view of radiation pressure and shielding, this situation seems quite normal. They aren't that big (earth-sized) so they don't shadow each other much from the rest of the universe and they are pushing on each other from the light (both visible and you always forget about non-visible) emissions...so it's obvious why it will take a long time for them to collide. This is one of those sitiuations where some rocket scientist will say "oh there must be alot of dark matter around them preventing them from colliding much sooner than gravity would predict".

Last edited by Lou on 29-Aug-2012 at 04:25 PM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 29-Aug-2012 18:23:38
#2332 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@Lou

Quote:
Now multiply by the # of stars in the galaxy...or universe...
And then divide by their distance squared If the received pressure from the nearest star is already 0.01% of the "atmospheric" pressure of intergalactic space, how low is the pressure from a star four hundred light years away, or four thousand, or four million? If radiation pressure was responsible for gravitation, all planets would cluster at points in space as far as possible from stars, instead of orbiting them as they do.

Quote:
GR says really "massive" things have this mythical force called "gravity" that is "super strong". Now the white dwarves in question are supposed to have a mass atleast 6x the sun but be the size of the earth and are located 1/3 the distance to the moon from the earth...
The mean orbital velocity of the moon is 1.023kM/S and it takes 29.53 days to complete a single orbit. If the orbital velocity were zero, the moon would fall directly to Earth as a resust of mutual gravitational attraction.
Since the two masses in question are covering about the same distance in a few minutes, it would be obvious to all except the fundamentally brain dead that the orbital velocity is far greater. If it were not for the attraction between the two objects they would travel in a straight line. (Newton again, I'm afraid). The reason that the frequency is increasing is that the two are getting closer and the distance travelled is likewise reducing, but the velocity remains constant. As they get closer, both the radiation pressure of the light pushing out, and the gravity pulling in increase. If light were as all powerful as a certain rocket scientist claims, it would overcome the gravitational attraction and nothing that emits light could collide, especially white dwarf stars. These two however will spin faster and faster, like a pair of figure skaters pulling together, until they coalesce.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 29-Aug-2012 19:59:16
#2333 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@Nimrod

Quote:

Nimrod wrote:
@Lou


Since the two masses in question are covering about the same distance

Actually, you suffer from reading comprehension as well, it was clearly stated as 1/3.

Quote:
in a few minutes, it would be obvious to all except the fundamentally brain dead that the orbital velocity is far greater. If it were not for the attraction between the two objects they would travel in a straight line. (Newton again, I'm afraid). The reason that the frequency is increasing is that the two are getting closer and the distance travelled is likewise reducing, but the velocity remains constant. As they get closer, both the radiation pressure of the light pushing out, and the gravity pulling in increase. If light were as all powerful as a certain rocket scientist claims, it would overcome the gravitational attraction and nothing that emits light could collide, especially white dwarf stars. These two however will spin faster and faster, like a pair of figure skaters pulling together, until they coalesce.

So no math, just hyperbole.
Got it! Long live SCIENCE BY PROCLAMATION!

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 29-Aug-2012 20:10:48
#2334 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Quote:
GR says really "massive" things have this mythical force called "gravity" that is "super strong". Now the white dwarves in question are supposed to have a mass atleast 6x the sun but be the size of the earth and are located 1/3 the distance to the moon from the earth... So they are really close together and really "massive" but yet its still going to take them 2 million years to collide despite orbitting each other currently every 13 minutes. Perhaps our resident rocket scientist/math whiz can do the math on the 'all powerful' force of gravity here
What you haven't figured out is citing Radiative Pressure doesn't solve the problem. You simply replace 'gravity' in your above paragraph and reads exactly the same.

The problem you face (because RT is your stake in the arguement) is demonstrating that RT Force > Gravitational in the system. Or if RT is the same as Gravity then demonstrate it. You've kept throwing up postulates but been weak on proof.

Quote:
where some rocket scientist will say "oh there must be alot of dark matter
Can you find someone saying this or are you just putting words in people's mouths? Since you lack evidence that anyone in the know actually said that I have to go with you're simply creating more Strawmen.

Quote:
So they are really close together and really "massive" but yet its still going to take them 2 million years to collide despite orbitting each other currently every 13 minutes.
Getting back to this. Gravity isn't a linear travel tug of war rope. Mass tells space how to curve and space tells mass how to travel. The system as a whole, for timing, depends on the path of travel along with acceleration along the path. Turns out what you claim is broken in gravity and GEM fixes isn't actually broken in gravity.

Quote:
So no math, just hyperbole.
Yes you didn't provide math. We'll wait. Afterall you made the claim gravity didn't work and it's all RP. So support your claim and show us how you did the work.

Last edited by BrianK on 29-Aug-2012 at 08:59 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 29-Aug-2012 at 08:13 PM.

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Nimrod 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 29-Aug-2012 20:55:32
#2335 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2010
Posts: 1223
From: Untied Kingdom

@Lou

Quote:
Actually, you suffer from reading comprehension as well, it was clearly stated as 1/3.
OK My mistake. The two objects are travelling about 1/3 the distance in 1/3271 of the time means that most people who are not totally unaware of the existence of numbers that they are moving faster than the moon, not slower.
Since we now have masses 6 x that of our sun travelling at 3350kM/S, it requires a very powerful force to turn them towards each other. If it were not for this force they would continue to travel in a straight line (technically the arc of a great circle of infinite radius)
Your original reference to what yopu choose to call "GEM theory" specified that two light sources would repel each other, not attract. As the two dwarf stars are both powerful emitters of radiation pressure, if there were a single femtogram of truth in this particular crock of CRAP the two white dwarf stars would be retreating from each other at a significant portion of speed c, instead of drawing inexorably together. As they get closer to each other, the "radiation pressure forcing them apart will increase as will gravitation pulling them together. Whichever one is the greater force will win. So will gravity pull them together, or will radiation pressure force them apart.

Quote:
Long live SCIENCE BY PROCLAMATION!
Well, you should know since that is all that you have provided. Oops, nearly made another major error there. You did once post an equation.

This one. It was the wrong equation, wrongly applied, in the wrong circumstance, but it was an equation. Congratulations.

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 31-Aug-2012 17:44:23
#2336 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Nimrod

So true!

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BrianK 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 1-Sep-2012 12:44:11
#2337 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2003
Posts: 8111
From: Minneapolis, MN, USA

@Lou

Looky! EM Van Allen Belts are going to be closer explored. Might be useful for you to see what EVIDENCE this brings.

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Amiboy 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 1-Sep-2012 14:08:18
#2338 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Dec-2003
Posts: 1056
From: At home (probably)

@Lou

Some drunk guy in a pub has just wrote down on a beer mat that 1 gram of gold weighs more than 1 gram of feathers..........

He said he was going to give a presentation of this scrawl using powerpoint and video it for fooltube, sorry I mean youtube.

OMG he has wrote it down so it must be true!!!! I completely 100% agree with what he is saying, as he has wrote it down and eveything.........

Who needs evidence hey....

In case you couldn't tell I was being sarcastic about your approach to anything scientific....

Last edited by Amiboy on 01-Sep-2012 at 02:09 PM.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 5-Sep-2012 20:54:10
#2339 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
GR says really "massive" things have this mythical force called "gravity" that is "super strong". Now the white dwarves in question are supposed to have a mass atleast 6x the sun but be the size of the earth and are located 1/3 the distance to the moon from the earth... So they are really close together and really "massive" but yet its still going to take them 2 million years to collide despite orbitting each other currently every 13 minutes. Perhaps our resident rocket scientist/math whiz can do the math on the 'all powerful' force of gravity here
What you haven't figured out is citing Radiative Pressure doesn't solve the problem. You simply replace 'gravity' in your above paragraph and reads exactly the same.

When are you going to realize that the radiation pressure & shadowing model completely displaces gravity. Gravity calculations are merely short hand generalizations. Acutually what's laughable is that most of it is done with averages. For instance, you say the average distance to the Sun is X, the time averages to 365.25 days hence the mass is Y...so if the mass is Y and the radius is Z then the density is D (an average derived from other averages) and then you look at planets like Saturn and Jupiter and label them 'gas giants' because their 'average density' is low... This is a short-coming of your gravity math where you can adjust the mass to suit your needs as in the example above. With radiation shadowing (attractive gravity), a planet can only shield radiation from the rest of the universe up to 100%. So as it's diameter increases, it doesn't shield radiation better than 100% so after a certain point the noobish Newtonian way of calculating 'mass' turns a plantet into a gas giant. Can you explain to me how a gas giant maintains it's spherical shape when you look at the rest of the universe and see gas in anything but a spherical shape?

NASA crashed a satellite right into Jupiter and knows exactly how solid Jupiter is and the altitude of it's atmosphere.

Quote:

Quote:
where some rocket scientist will say "oh there must be alot of dark matter
Can you find someone saying this or are you just putting words in people's mouths? Since you lack evidence that anyone in the know actually said that I have to go with you're simply creating more Strawmen.

aka what you do to me all the time...

Quote:

Quote:
So no math, just hyperbole.
Yes you didn't provide math. We'll wait. Afterall you made the claim gravity didn't work and it's all RP. So support your claim and show us how you did the work.

Stop being an ingnoramous. I told you to buy Brandenburg's book. This piddly "where's your work where's your math" shlock is old.

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Lou 
Re: Anybody remember Nibiru?
Posted on 5-Sep-2012 21:04:22
#2340 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 4169
From: Rhode Island

@Nimrod

Quote:

Nimrod wrote:
@Lou

Quote:
Actually, you suffer from reading comprehension as well, it was clearly stated as 1/3.
OK My mistake. The two objects are travelling about 1/3 the distance in 1/3271 of the time means that most people who are not totally unaware of the existence of numbers that they are moving faster than the moon, not slower.
Since we now have masses 6 x that of our sun travelling at 3350kM/S, it requires a very powerful force to turn them towards each other. If it were not for this force they would continue to travel in a straight line (technically the arc of a great circle of infinite radius)
Your original reference to what yopu choose to call "GEM theory" specified that two light sources would repel each other, not attract. As the two dwarf stars are both powerful emitters of radiation pressure, if there were a single femtogram of truth in this particular crock of CRAP the two white dwarf stars would be retreating from each other at a significant portion of speed c, instead of drawing inexorably together. As they get closer to each other, the "radiation pressure forcing them apart will increase as will gravitation pulling them together. Whichever one is the greater force will win. So will gravity pull them together, or will radiation pressure force them apart.

Quote:
Long live SCIENCE BY PROCLAMATION!
Well, you should know since that is all that you have provided. Oops, nearly made another major error there. You did once post an equation.

This one. It was the wrong equation, wrongly applied, in the wrong circumstance, but it was an equation. Congratulations.

First let's recall that you are a physics noob.

Ok, now that that's out of the way...

In my 'light sphere example' I said they were in a 'dark' box. Hence, radiation pressure from the rest of the universe was assumed to be limited. So the greatest sources of pressure would be from their individual emissions of 'light'. It was a generalization to illustrate a point.

As a physics noob you never quite see the point then go on the math tirade tangent of incomplete information with alot of assumptions.

As a physics noob, you have mentioned previously that Quantim Physics is incorrect (you are of course completely wrong, physics noob)...hence you don't believe in the energy of the vacuum, hence you don't believe in the radiation pressure of the universe hence nothing I say will cause you to rise above your physics noob-dom.
I have told you flat out that nothing you say is of use to me. The stubborn-ness derived from your ignorance keeps driving you to do so, apparently.

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